Arya will become Queen

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

She clearly had a crush on him, but I don't see him as a long term romantic interest. She barely thinks of Gendry in AFFC and not at all in ADWD.

Overused argument: she only thinks of Jon a chapter more, for example. She doesn't think of anybody, except those she believes to be dead in the last chapters. She buried memories and feelings.The man she put on her list for him though (who stole Gendry's helm) is her surrogate layer to think of him.

But if you admit she had a crush on him, then Cat's words of "she's already in love" type of girl to Ned about the wolf pups are of interest... ANd of course a typical word used in context of Gendry is "crush", because that's the word often used when people want to wave off a young girl's attraction, as something that will pass.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Overused argument: she only thinks of Jon a chapter more, for example. She doesn't think of anybody, except those she believes to be dead in the last chapters. She buried memories and feelings.The man she put on her list for him though (who stole Gendry's helm) is her surrogate layer to think of him.

In her two chapters in ADWD there is one passage where she directly reflects on Jon and Cat, and another where it is Bran, Robb, Rickon and Ned. In addition, you have her attention quickly focusing on the Lyseni slavers discussing items of relevance to Jon. Nothing on Gendry, other than the inclusion of Dunsen on the list. By that token she also must be considered to think about Lommy Greenhands a lot too. Yes, she tries to avoid thinking about her past when taking on another identity, but it is telling what she can't help but think about.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

ANd of course a typical word used in context of Gendry is "crush", because that's the word often used when people want to wave off a young girl's attraction, as something that will pass.

Yes, I think it has passed - hence the use of crush not love or similar.

[Chris Mormont]

I do not see Arya and Jon marrying.  I cannot imagine Jon would ever think of Arya as any more than his little sister and regardless on whether they ever find out that they are not brother and sister, I cannot see a love affair blossoming between the two. 

Now that does mean she will not marry a king though.  I can certainly see her and Gendry getting back together again and who knows, perhaps someone will legitimize him and he will inherit Storms End.  I always suspected that if Dany ever did make it to Westeros, that the only way she would become Queen is to compromise and grant the 7 Kingdoms the right to have kings and queens as long as they paid homage to her

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

In her two chapters in ADWD there is one passage where she directly reflects on Jon and Cat, and another where it is Bran, Robb, Rickon and Ned. In addition, you have her attention quickly focusing on the Lyseni slavers discussing items of relevance to Jon. Nothing on Gendry, other than the inclusion of Dunsen on the list. By that token she also must be considered to think about Lommy Greenhands a lot too. Yes, she tries to avoid thinking about her past when taking on another identity, but it is telling what she can't help but think about.

 

Yes, I think it has passed - hence the use of crush not love or similar.

Very true. To add to that, the last time she thinks of Gendry is associated with him abandoning her. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing on Gendry, other than the inclusion of Dunsen on the list. By that token she also must be considered to think about Lommy Greenhands a lot too. Yes, she tries to avoid thinking about her past when taking on another identity, but it is telling what she can't help but think about.

But she never showed any attraction to Lommy. But yes, in a way she thinks of Lommy Greenhands too. 

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

d Cat, and another where it is Bran, Robb, Rickon and Ned

Yes, she thinks of these in a very particular vision in the last chapter in aDwD - as dead people. She stopped thinking of the living directly, only the dead, or those she beleives are dead. It's not just some random thought of Ned here, and then a memory of Bran there. It is telling that she can't help but think about the ones she believes to be dead as faces in the HoBaW. She's far more comfortable thinking about the "dead" than those who live.

Also you seem to want to represent aFfC and aDwD as being chronologically timelined. Arya's chapters are chronoligical to one another. But for instance her chapter as Cat of the Canals who ended up killing Dareon is within the same timeline as aFfC, shortly after Sam left and sailed for Oldtown. Together less than half a year has passed.

And I don't thnk it has passed at all. I'm not going to debate that, because the arguments about it being passed are highly subjective, and more about belief than anything else, and clinging to "hey she stopped thinking of Gendry directly a chapter earlier than Jon" while she's going through a psychological process of seeing her previous life as dead, over and done with in order to become "no one". But we all know she won't ever truly be "no one".

[Philokles]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But she never showed any attraction to Lommy. But yes, in a way she thinks of Lommy Greenhands too. 

That is my point. Just because she has someone on the list, it doesn't mean she is attracted to their victim.

 

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, she thinks of these in a very particular vision in the last chapter in aDwD - as dead people. She stopped thinking of the living directly, only the dead, or those she beleives are dead

There is this in the Blind Girl where she thinks about both living and dead relatives:

"She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman's Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad."

I'm not sure where she got the impression Sansa is dead.

 

30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Also you seem to want to represent aFfC and aDwD as being chronologically timelined. Arya's chapters are chronoligical to one another. But for instance her chapter as Cat of the Canals who ended up killing Dareon is within the same timeline as aFfC, shortly after Sam left and sailed for Oldtown. Together less than half a year has passed.

And I don't thnk it has passed at all. I'm not going to debate that, because the arguments about it being passed are highly subjective, and more about belief than anything else, and clinging to "hey she stopped thinking of Gendry directly a chapter earlier than Jon

I meant to show that she thinks about family members for longer and more often than she does Gendry. How much importance there is for the former we don't know given the timeline uncertainties. I'm pretty sceptical that she'll end up with Jon too. I think the likelihood is about 20% Jon, 20% Gendry, 30% someone else, 30% nobody (in particular).

 

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

she's going through a psychological process of seeing her previous life as dead, over and done with in order to become "no one". But we all know she won't ever truly be "no one".

I think she is still holding on to hope, hence why she is not fully committing to the FM even consciously.

"Skinny as they were, her legs were strong and springy and growing longer every day. She was glad of that. A water dancer needs good legs. Blind Beth was no water dancer, but she would not be Beth forever." (ADWD, the Blind Girl)

There are a few other quotes like that which would make little sense if she was intending to be an FM for ever.

[GloubieBoulga]

10 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

"She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman's Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad."

I'm not sure where she got the impression Sansa is dead.

I think she is there thinking about her first identity "Arya Stark", and the fact that she has now experimented other identity. It is an existencial questionning, and not a love-interrest questionning. Gendry knew her name Arya Stark, but he never knew her at Winterfell, so he didn't really know Arya Stark of Winterfell. For example, Hot pie knew also her "real name", but never called her Arya. 

For me, it seams just natural that she don't evokes Gendry at this moment: he has nothing to do with Winterfell.^^

[sweetsunray]

26 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

That is my point. Just because she has someone on the list, it doesn't mean she is attracted to their victim.

No, but everything else before that is. She is attracted to him and he is one of the living she remembers in a suppressed manner through the list. Every name on her list ties to people she cared about in some way - some were bystanders, some were only people she heard a story about, some were friends, some are blood, and one of them is someone we have evidence of that she was attracted to him in a manner that she payed particular attention to in order to know his moods. That attraction is unlikely to be gone, given the fact she tends to bond to people strongly. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they won't end up together happily ever after. But seeing him again, after flowering, would have an impact on her even if she's no more than 12. She won't be indifferent to him, not when it comes to attraction or her feelings of betrayal. And he's not indifferent either. He surrounds himself with nothing but Arya foils and ghosts. And he sure as hell didn't think of her as his "little sister". 

[zandru]

Just as a note in passing, I don't think Arya will "flower" (nice way to put it) at 12, like Sansa. Arya's skinny and athletic; this leads to a later first menses, like maybe a few years later. Say 14 or 15. Remember, when it came up in the books, it was as "highborne girls flower at the age of ...", and not the rule for the entire population. That's because the highborne are better nourished, not to mention probably more sedentary, than the "small" folk, and as we know by now, the percentage of body fat is a major determiner in when puberty occurs among girls. In our overfat, diabetic 21st century America, a girl can have her first period at the age of 8.

Unless she's an athlete, such as an endurance runner, or (starved) gymnast or dancer. Put Arya in the "athlete" category. This will probably impact her psychology as well, as in when she becomes "boy crazy" like Sansa and Jeyne did. Hormones.

[Springwatch]

10 minutes ago, zandru said:

Just as a note in passing, I don't think Arya will "flower" (nice way to put it) at 12...

I do hope you're right!  But I don't think grrm is very good at this sort of thing. Sansa went from child to curvy beauty in an unbelievably short period of time.

And I really, really don't want to see Arya learning sex tips from the courtesans. It was bad enough with Dany and Doreah.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Under no circumstances are TWoW spoilers to be discussed in this part of the forum.

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[/MOD]

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Just as a note in passing, I don't think Arya will "flower" (nice way to put it) at 12, like Sansa. Arya's skinny and athletic; this leads to a later first menses, like maybe a few years later. Say 14 or 15. Remember, when it came up in the books, it was as "highborne girls flower at the age of ...", and not the rule for the entire population. That's because the highborne are better nourished, not to mention probably more sedentary, than the "small" folk, and as we know by now, the percentage of body fat is a major determiner in when puberty occurs among girls. In our overfat, diabetic 21st century America, a girl can have her first period at the age of 8.

Unless she's an athlete, such as an endurance runner, or (starved) gymnast or dancer. Put Arya in the "athlete" category. This will probably impact her psychology as well, as in when she becomes "boy crazy" like Sansa and Jeyne did. Hormones.

 In that case, I will post an unsubstantiated: wrong. It's literature, and even atheltic, skinny girls can flower at 12.

[The Fresh PtwP]

15 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Bullpoop.

If Arya was a boy and was still going around reciting her creepy revenge "prayer" each night before falling asleep and joined an assassin's guild that's blindly devoted to the act of killing I'd find that just as unnerving and uninteresting.

You are also assuming that everybody excuses Sandor and/or Jaime and not taking circumstances into account.

Personally I find Sandor pretty pathetic, he played Joffrey's bloodhound, killing children for the little psychopath and only stopped because he wanted into Sansa's small clothes.

While Jaime has been on a redemption quest since he has been released by Catelyn. A redemption quest which he thinks is impossible anyways and still he's trying.

And Podrick, as you write, killed in defense of somebody important to him.

Arya meanwhile appoints herself Jury, Judge and Executioner when she kills Dareon, for the sole crime of breaking the batshit Night's Watch vows. She is not a judge and has no business doing that. And NO I wasn't fond of Ned doing the same either in the first book, but at least he had juridical power to do so. With that she is enforcing her own personal code of living on others and that's a bit hypocritical from someone who herself rebels against the norms of her society.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/yes-awesome-oldschool.gif

Unpopular opinion: I LOATHE Sandor

On the Arya/Gendry...I'm undecided she shows alot of interest in him, but she is also really observant (i.e. those facial expressions). She checks out "big blue eyes" Ned Dayne too. 

As for Jon/Arya I doubt Jon will be king, I doubt they'll get married, and I doubt Arya will be queen. I will say she is learning valuable skills to shake up court. I feel fArya ruins her northern credibilty as well so again doubtful QitN.

[JonSnow4President]

16 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Bullpoop.

If Arya was a boy and was still going around reciting her creepy revenge "prayer" each night before falling asleep and joined an assassin's guild that's blindly devoted to the act of killing I'd find that just as unnerving and uninteresting.

You are also assuming that everybody excuses Sandor and/or Jaime and not taking circumstances into account.

Personally I find Sandor pretty pathetic, he played Joffrey's bloodhound, killing children for the little psychopath and only stopped because he wanted into Sansa's small clothes.

While Jaime has been on a redemption quest since he has been released by Catelyn. A redemption quest which he thinks is impossible anyways and still he's trying.

So Jaime, who attempted to kill a child because that child saw him f***ing his sister, who attacks Ned in the streets and kills his men as petty revenge, and commits treason on a regular basis is on a redemption arc, despite never showing a hint of regret for these actions.  Sandor, who killed a boy accused of assaulting the Crown Prince, shows regret at later dates, and really does nothing else all series but be a whole lot of bark but very little bite, is not on a redemption arc, even as he continues to show that regret well after parting from Sansa? 

16 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

And Podrick, as you write, killed in defense of somebody important to him.

Arya meanwhile appoints herself Jury, Judge and Executioner when she kills Dareon, for the sole crime of breaking the batshit Night's Watch vows. She is not a judge and has no business doing that. And NO I wasn't fond of Ned doing the same either in the first book, but at least he had juridical power to do so. With that she is enforcing her own personal code of living on others and that's a bit hypocritical from someone who herself rebels against the norms of her society.

She doesn't execute him for f***ing a whore.  She executes him for desertion of the Night's Watch, which is a capital offense. It's a desire to see justice done, which has been a fundamental aspect of her character since the death of Mycah.  You may not agree with the pseudo-medieval justice being employed, but she is no different than any other vigilante hero with regards to Daeron. 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

On the Arya/Gendry...I'm undecided she shows alot of interest in him, but she is also really observant (i.e. those facial expressions). She checks out "big blue eyes" Ned Dayne too. 

But not Hot Pie's dozen of facial expressions or Lommy's. And yes, she checked out Ned Dayne. Hence why Gendry didn't like him and acted jealous.

[a black swan]

7 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So Jaime, who attempted to kill a child because that child saw him f***ing his sister, who attacks Ned in the streets and kills his men as petty revenge, and commits treason on a regular basis is on a redemption arc, despite never showing a hint of regret for these actions.  Sandor, who killed a boy accused of assaulting the Crown Prince, shows regret at later dates, and really does nothing else all series but be a whole lot of bark but very little bite, is not on a redemption arc, even as he continues to show that regret well after parting from Sansa? 

She doesn't execute him for f***ing a whore.  She executes him for desertion of the Night's Watch, which is a capital offense. It's a desire to see justice done, which has been a fundamental aspect of her character since the death of Mycah.  You may not agree with the pseudo-medieval justice being employed, but she is no different than any other vigilante hero with regards to Daeron. 

Very true. Which goes back to the selective "outrage" where people like Arya are picked apart and labelled a psychopath...etc a person unworthy of any happiness or has "done too much" dark things to ever come back. Ugh. *eyeroll* But if she wasn't a girl... perhaps they'd have blindspots and be more sympathetic ala Jaime Lannister. 

[The Fresh PtwP]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But not Hot Pie's dozen of facial expressions or Lommy's. And yes, she checked out Ned Dayne. Hence why Gendry didn't like him and acted jealous.

Let's be real here, she notices that Gendry makes an angry face when thinking and not much else. Also that's a pretty unique thing and something people generally comment on and notice. Other than that she absolutely can tell when Hot Pie is scared, or Ned miserable, or Gendry serious, or most character's she's interacted with's moods...again observant.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Let's be real here, she notices that Gendry makes an angry face when thinking and not much else. Also that's a pretty unique thing and something people generally comment on and notice. Other than that she absolutely can tell when Hot Pie is scared, or Ned miserable, or Gendry serious, or most character's she's interacted with's moods...again observant.

Let's be real here. She notices several times he makes some sort of face in different situations, whch she calls that face throughout aCoK, but it's a different one each time. So, no, it's more than just an angry face.

Hot Pie is Hot Pie. Gendry is different things at different times.

[The Fresh PtwP]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Let's be real here. She notices several times he makes some sort of face in different situations, whch she calls that face throughout aCoK, but it's a different one each time. So, no, it's more than just an angry face.

Hot Pie is Hot Pie. Gendry is different things at different times.

See it's already down from dozens to several. My point is that the "serious/stubborn" look isn't mentioned as many times as you seem to be implying. Even before her FM training she is really good at reading people and faces. The couple of times she notices Gendry's facial expression isn't out of the norm.

I said in my first post that she is certainly interested in him, I just pointed out that a lot of the "evidence" such as moods and facial expressions could be explained by her being perceptive.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

See it's already down from dozens to several. My point is that the "serious/stubborn" look isn't mentioned as many times as you seem to be implying. Even before her FM training she is really good at reading people and faces. The couple of times she notices Gendry's facial expression isn't out of the norm.

I said in my first post that she is certainly interested in him, I just pointed out that a lot of the "evidence" such as moods and facial expressions could be explained by her being perceptive.

Oh wow. It may be dozen times, it may be half a dozen times. It comes up pretty much every chapter throughout aCoK.

It is out of the norm. The way it's phrased, means familiarity. It means she watches him far more than anybody else. It's as out of the norm as it is noticing he smells of fresh soap while she's observing gold cloaks. Arya fears for her life and that of others. One would expect all her focus to be on the gold cloaks, not on how soapy Gendry smells on top of it. That she is perceptive does not negate that she is extremely perceptive of Gendry more than anyone else around her. This extreme perceptiveness is typical though when someone's attracted and drawn to someone. It's part of the bonding process, a type of imprinting. And it's why she becomes so familiar with him that she can finish his sentences. What he thinks, what he does, how he looks, what he says has weight with her, even when he annoys her.