Do the Others really want to cross the wall?

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Orphalesion we've been over this "grey" angle IIRC so we don't need to rehash all that or we will start talking about Uruk Hai and LOTR again probably lol. 

The Others ain't perfect. Their harsh, dangerous and magically powerful beings. If they think the best course of action is to completely kill the other side before their own well being is jeopardised then you would have to take that up with GRRM and the Others, but that is simply them doing what they think is the right thing to do, however "ungrey" it may seem to you. 

And we have no idea how seriously the Others take the prophecies of returning warriors of fire wielding fiery or fire infused swords and waking Dragons from stone so you can't really "use" that in your argument.

For all we know the Others are deep down petrified of this potential warrior of fires return that they will act extremely rashly on the matter, which includes mass killings and using the dead bodies to bolster their own numbers and raise the chances of their own survival. 

True that.

Still I don't consent to the idea that moral greyness should be solely defined by whether an individual or group thinks they are in the "right", that would make the world too easy. 
I will consent to the moral grayness of the Others the moment we 1) Are shown that they indeed are capable of rational thought, and thus morality 2) we are shown Others (not failed wights, like Coldhands) who speak or act against the plan to kill humans (for whatever reason they might have)

^That's actually a victory of yours and other people here, you guys got me so far as to consider that, perhaps, maybe, there might be something, possibly not-pure evil about the Others.

9 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Nations buy its freedom and access to resources with the blood of its young men and young women.  We send them to war so we can have access to cheaper resources and to maintain our freedom from an outside force.  Taken in that context, the blood price asked of the wildlings is not that unreasonable.  The Others require this payment if you want to live on their side of the wall.  The free folk have paid happily for thousands of years until one "king" comes along.  This "king" was raised by kneelers and he sees things differently.  He refuses to pay the blood price.  The Others aren't getting the payment they bargained for and attack. 

 

So because war exists it's okay to sacrifice newborn infants? Seriously?

Also where does it say that the Wildlings are on their side of the Wall voluntarily?

Plus, why do you automatically assume I approve of nation states or resource wars, or the idea of mandatory conscription?

[black_hart]

Yeah, contrarian topic time.

As Jon Snow might have said: We simply don't know enough about them. But stating that is of course not enough, ... instead we pull out the poor misunderstood ice creatures in fear of global warming and subsequent melting. As this does not convince, we invent atrocities against them (although the text is abundantly clear that Mance Rayder has not been able to destroy even a single white walker).

Some proposed new topics:

• Craster - a maligned voice for coexistence?
• White walkers - the 'polar bears' of Westeros?
• Human sacrifice and ecology - maintaining the equilibrium north of the Wall.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

 

So because war exists it's okay to sacrifice newborn infants? Seriously?

Also where does it say that the Wildlings are on their side of the Wall voluntarily?

Plus, why do you automatically assume I approve of nation states or resource wars, or the idea of mandatory conscription?

I'm saying they're all blood sacrifices.  While it is true that a soldier has a chance to make it out of battle alive,while the man who got his throat cut in front of the heart tree does not, it is still a blood sacrifice.  

All the wildlings have to do is kneel and swear fealty.  It's as easy as that.  Give up something to get something.  You can't tolerate a people who refuse to acknowledge and obey the laws of the seven kingdoms living south of the wall.  The wildlings have a choice.  

I don't know what you approve of.  I am expressing my own opinion and making a comment.  Take it how you will.

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:44 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Yes the giant ice wall built to keep out the ice monsters that Martin says can do things with ice that we can't even fathom.  Something about that never made sense to me. 

and

On 4/30/2017 at 0:48 AM, The Transporter said:

Do you stop ice with ice? 

Take that logic and apply it to hackers and security software.

"What is this firewall? Computer software, designed to to stop people who are computer experts? There is something fishy going on here..."

"How do you stop computer programs with computer programs?"

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:12 PM, weirwoodface said:

 

Pretty much this, along with the related stories of why it had to be built and why the Nght's Watch was founded. 

The wiki makes note of the existence of a tome called Lies of the Ancients by a certain Archmaester Fomas, who claims that the whole Others thing was a lie made up by House Stark to make themselves seem more heroic. But given that we're actually seeing Other in the books, we can likely toss his ideas in the trash.

 

Unless of course the "Others" are magical creations meant to resemble the Others of legend and folklore.  The fact that they essentially melt away when stabbed by obsidian seems to indicate that they are frozen water or air being animated by magic, as opposed to a biological creature that can 'sire terrible half human creatures with human women'. 

Also it appears that these Snow Knights are not trying to kill as many people as possible, but are instead herding the Wildlings south of the Wall.  They stayed behind Mance's "army" and only attacked on the margins.  They then attack the villagers that decided to stay rather than retreat south of the Wall.  Finally, they only attacked in force against the Night's Watch forces when Mormont decided that he was going to try and stop Mance's army from reaching the Wall.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unless of course the "Others" are magical creations meant to resemble the Others of legend and folklore.  The fact that they essentially melt away when stabbed by obsidian seems to indicate that they are frozen water or air being animated by magic, as opposed to a biological creature that can 'sire terrible half human creatures with human women'. 

Also it appears that these Snow Knights are not trying to kill as many people as possible, but are instead herding the Wildlings south of the Wall.  They stayed behind Mance's "army" and only attacked on the margins.  They then attack the villagers that decided to stay rather than retreat south of the Wall.  Finally, they only attacked in force against the Night's Watch forces when Mormont decided that he was going to try and stop Mance's army from reaching the Wall.

Maybe they want the wildlings out of their lands.  Anything north of the wall is theirs.  Perhaps there is an ancient treaty to that effect.  What if the saying "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" got bastardized and the real meaning is "the Starks must remain at Winterfell and not venture farther north."  

[Orphalesion]

7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

All the wildlings have to do is kneel and swear fealty.  It's as easy as that.  Give up something to get something.  You can't tolerate a people who refuse to acknowledge and obey the laws of the seven kingdoms living south of the wall.  The wildlings have a choice. 

I highly doubt that if the Wildlings knocked on one of the Walls doors and said "Hey Night's Watch, we'd like to live under the protection and laws of your King, wanna let us through so that we can settle somewhere down south?" that they would be taken seriously or granted their request.

So no, the Wildlings don't have a choice.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-05-01 at 3:08 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I had a brief discussion about this recently with @RevaM. We both seem to lean this way to some degree or another. I only have just a minute, but do you guys know of any other good threads where this specific topic is discussed?

For me, one of the big things that stops me from being a total Other sympathizer is the prologue. It seems fairly clear that they are looking for Jon Snow in particular and that is why they test Waymar Royce. If the Others are not as much of a threat as we may have been led to believe, then why did they kill the rangers? I am open to suggestions here.

I'm afraid that I don't know of any other discussion on the subject to recommend.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, LionoftheWest said:

I'm afraid that I don't know of any other discussion on the subject to recommend.

Thanks for getting back with me. I know I had seen some before, but it seems to be lost to internet worms  

[Lion of the West]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thanks for getting back with me. I know I had seen some before, but it seems to be lost to internet worms  

You're welcome.

[Darkstream]

On 28/04/2017 at 8:26 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

What evidence do we have that they want to cross the wall and attack the seven kingdoms?  They left Craster alone so we know they don't inherently hate man.

Only a foolish sweet summer child would dare doubt the sage words of dear ol' Nan.

 

"The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks."

"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

[Bowen Marsh]

On 5/2/2017 at 1:18 PM, Darkstream said:

Only a foolish sweet summer child would dare doubt the sage words of dear ol' Nan.

 

"The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks."

"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Since we don't know what lies far beyond the wall this could have happened on the other side.  Buried under all that snow lies the ruins of these holdfasts and cities and kingdoms.  The wall became the boundary that the two parties agreed not to cross.  North belongs to them the south belongs to man.  The wall divides true north from true south.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Since we don't know what lies far beyond the wall this could have happened on the other side.  Buried under all that snow lies the ruins of these holdfasts and cities and kingdoms.  The wall became the boundary that the two parties agreed not to cross.  North belongs to them the south belongs to man.  The wall divides true north from true south.

Sure, anything is possible. It's highly unlikely though. There's no reason to believe that there would have been a densely populated, and relatively advanced society living that far north. Even South of the wall, the vast lands North of the neck are scarcely populated. 

And we know that the First Men were...well, the first men to inhabit the continent, and that they migrated by crossing the broken arm, and advancing North from Dorne. Before they arrived, the CotF held dominion over the continent and were eventually forced further and further north, and beyond into the lands North of the wall.

We have tales and legends dating back to that time, and had men progressed that far, and had that kind of presence throughout the entire continent, not only would there be stories and legends of some lost, wiped out civilization that once resided in these northern lands, but it wouldn't make any sense in relation to what we do know about the history of Westeros. Sure a lot of what we do know likely isn't completely accurate and stories would have been conflated and/or altered over time, but the scenario that you have put forth would completely conflict with, and make invalid, everything we have learned through out the first five novels.

And why would Nan know of these stories, but not of these kingdoms that resided in the far frozen north?

Basically, it would be a complete ass pull on GRRM's part, and render everything we've learned so far a huge, Balerion sized red herring.

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/28/2017 at 7:28 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

The wall being built in the first place seems like decent evidence. I'm not disregarding what you're saying, just my first thought. 

We don't really know for sure why the wall is even there apart from 8000 year old legends. For a point of reference, the oldest story on Earth is about 4000 years old and we have no reason to believe any of it is fact. The point is, we have no reason to believe that anything we're led to believe about the building of the wall is accurate. Human culture doesn't preserve knowledge on those timescales. The CotF would certainly know more, because they store their memory in 5th dimensional organic supercomputers, but until we get some wall-related exposition from them we're stuck.

Does it really make sense that a wall built to keep out magical ice creatures would be built out of... magical ice? That seems more like the sort of thing magical ice creatures would build to keep out humans, not the other way around. And apparently the physical wall itself doesn't even keep out the Others, that's handled with magic, so why is the wall even there?

Or maybe there are two walls: the (invisible) wall humans (and CotF?) built out of magic that keeps out the others standing right next to the ice wall the Others built to keep out the humans.

I've proposed the idea that the wall we see made of ice is really a side-effect; it's what happens when you erect a magical barrier against ice magic and then blast that barrier with ice magic for 8000 years. That ice magic accumulates and builds a nice thick layer of physical ice. It may well have been a thousand years before anything resembling a wall was there, a process so gradual that nobody noticed it happening.

[Darkstream]

42 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Does it really make sense that a wall built to keep out magical ice creatures would be built out of... magical ice? That seems more like the sort of thing magical ice creatures would build to keep out humans, not the other way around. And apparently the physical wall itself doesn't even keep out the Others, that's handled with magic, so why is the wall even there?

 

Sure it does. It is the most practical, readily available, and maintainable resource to build a huge wall out of in the territory. It's not the ice that keeps the Others from crossing, it's the magic barrier ensconced within the wall of ice. 

Sometimes it's necessary to fight fire with fire, in this case it seems the most viable option was to fight ice with ice.

What would you propose that the wall be made of otherwise?

Quote

And apparently the physical wall itself doesn't even keep out the Others, that's handled with magic, so why is the wall even there?

Perhaps it is necessary for there to be a solid physical structure in order to place or maintain the magic barrier on or within.

[Darkstream]

47 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

I've proposed the idea that the wall we see made of ice is really a side-effect; it's what happens when you erect a magical barrier against ice magic and then blast that barrier with ice magic for 8000 years. That ice magic accumulates and builds a nice thick layer of physical ice. It may well have been a thousand years before anything resembling a wall was there, a process so gradual that nobody noticed it happening.

But there are tales of the wall being gradually built up by the nights watch over the years.

Besides, it's not like the wall was left there with nobody around. Are you proposing that the men of the nights watch who originally manned the wall were just guarding a magical barrier, and didn't notice that it eventually turned into an ice wall?

[Traverys]

On 4/29/2017 at 1:09 AM, LionoftheWest said:

@Lord Wraith I agree with you that the Others are doing a shitty job of killing off the humans. Maybe it will be kick up a notch now when winter has come, but so far I am actually thinking that the Others don't stand up to the hype, and they are not as dangerous as we've been lead to think.

This is what I assumed. It seems like their power is tied to winter in general, or maybe the Others are not able to live outside of very cold temperatures. Whatever the reason, "winter is coming" is also used to mean "the Others are coming" on the Wall.

[Lion of the West]

48 minutes ago, Traverys said:

This is what I assumed. It seems like their power is tied to winter in general, or maybe the Others are not able to live outside of very cold temperatures. Whatever the reason, "winter is coming" is also used to mean "the Others are coming" on the Wall.

That would make sense to me and I hope you are right in this.

[Dragonsbone]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Sure it does. It is the most practical, readily available, and maintainable resource to build a huge wall out of in the territory. It's not the ice that keeps the Others from crossing, it's the magic barrier ensconced within the wall of ice. 

Sometimes it's necessary to fight fire with fire, in this case it seems the most viable option was to fight ice with ice.

What would you propose that the wall be made of otherwise?

Perhaps it is necessary for there to be a solid physical structure in order to place or maintain the magic barrier on or within.

You are absolutely right here. Also for the facts: it should not be a discussion at all who build the wall, since GRRM has already answered that in an interview. You can look it up on youtube. It is the interview where he answered facebook questions. I am at work right now, and I can not put the link here, but it should not be hard to find. When I am at home, I will put it here.

He was asked, if the humans build the wall, and he said that that was right. 

 

[Slowpoke Martin]

I won't argue about a magic ice wall keeping away magic ice creatures because we can all agree that its the magic imbued in the wall that is the important aspect.

My theory on the magic in the Wall:

Something Mel mentioned got me thinking, she felt more powerful magically at the Wall. If someone who has a basic grasp on magic like Mel could feel the magic in the Wall, I'm sure the Others most definitely could feel the magic.

Old Nan said that the Wall will hold so long as the Nights Watch remains true, I believe this is significant and man's devotion to the Nights Watch is what keeps the magic strong.

The magic on the Wall has been dwindling for many years now, the Nights Watch has been dying and because of that the magic is fading little by little. In the story so far, we have had 2 counts of mutiny against the Lord Commander. The magic holding the Wall intact is almost gone.

The Others are very smart, they aren't fully killing the wildlings yet because the wall is the true obstacle not the manpower and first they need to finish off the magic in the Wall. They were herding the wildlings south for that reason, they needed the wildlings to wipe out the Nights Watch and with them the rest of the magic in the Wall. Once the magic is gone, the Others can easily carve an opening anywhere in the Wall to cross or even bring it down completely.

 

Tinfoil Speculation:

I do believe the children of the forest created the Others. I do believe that Bloodraven is working against mankind and that he had the potential to strengthen the Wall but instead chose to abandon his post. I also, very strongly, believe that some of the magical dreams and influences affecting characters are not coming from Bloodraven or the CoTF but are coming from future Bran.