Sansa and the Savage Giant

[Mladen]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, is that a yes?

That Petyr wants Sansa to rule the North is an assumption based on what he told Sansa to keep her playing his game. It might be true, or not.

If Sansa is going to lead the knights of the Vale to war in the North, do you think Petyr will still be a player when that happens, or will he have been removed the game? 

Or do you think Sansa is headed in some other direction? 

I think Sansa is going North, I doubt she will be at the head of the army. I do think Vale lords may ride to Winterfell, perhaps Harry will be commander in chief. If we exclude possible Vale conspiracy, LF may be still in power when he takes Vale army and Sansa (and Harry, most likely) to WF.

 

[TheSunspearKid]

It doesn't even have to be actually killing LF. It could just be killing the idea of LF as the political threat. Once Sansa realizes she has all the power, LF's influence dies. Which could've happened already.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@Risto & @Lost Melnibonean  

I think that she and Baelish and the vale Knights (at least a portion) will head north after Stannis takes WF, the boltons are dead and he (stannis) dies of his injury's leaving a power vacuum in the North which he will just find too irresistible. 

Upon hearing that Stannis has taken the castle and promptly died of his wounds I think they travel north, and she is for a period the Stak in WF. I think also that this is how she manages to kill him, in WF she holds all the power. And can tell her guards to arrest him, when she decides she wishes to do so. As I've said before in this thread I think this could come about either because Jon arrives from the wall after hearing his sister now holds WF. To ask for help for the watch and tells her what Jeyne Poole will tell him when she arrives at the wall in TWOW. Or after LF attempts to rape her (Sansa0 which I am not keen on but have to acknowledge has some foreshadowing in the text. 

Once she has had him arrested she can conduct a trial and execute him. 

Perfectly logical. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

@Risto and @The Weirwoods Eyes (and anybody else), Do you believe that Sansa will wed Harry before she marches north? 

[Mladen]

53 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Risto and @The Weirwoods Eyes (and anybody else), Do you believe that Sansa will wed Harry before she marches north? 

I don't think that marriage will ever happen. It fits in Martin's MO not to realize so laid out plans. Whether Harry will be killed/out of the picture by their road to WF, or whether he will go to WF, I don't know. It is all speculative at this moment.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Risto and @The Weirwoods Eyes (and anybody else), Do you believe that Sansa will wed Harry before she marches north? 

I don't think Sansa will marry Harry. It is some hogwash LF is telling her.  Sansa Lannister is wanted in connection to King Joffrey's death. The Mad Mouse has found his target. Until the Lannister's are usurped and her marriage is annulled by hook or crook, Sansa is a fugitive.

The War of the Five Kings is finished. The Vale did not participate. Why would the Vale lords now rise against the IT?

As it stands Stannis is waging war on the new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I don't think Sansa will marry Harry. It is some hogwash LF is telling her.  Sansa Lannister is wanted in connection to King Joffrey's death. The Mad Mouse has found his target. Until the Lannister's are usurped and her marriage is annulled by hook or crook, Sansa is a fugitive.

The War of the Five Kings is finished. The Vale did not participate. Why would the Vale lords now rise against the IT?

As it stands Stannis is waging war on the new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton.

Is the Mad Mouse Varys’s agent, or is he hoping the Iron Throne will make good on Varys's promise of a bag of gold? Does he need to deliver the girl, or just give information that leads to her arrest? 

[Clegane'sPup]

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is the Mad Mouse Varys’s agent, or is he hoping the Iron Throne will make good on Varys's promise of a bag of gold? Does he need to deliver the girl, or just give information that leads to her arrest? 

Ummmm, I’m thinking that the Mad Mouse is a free agent looking to collect on some coins. He was able to locate Sansa while Brienne did not.

Will the IT make good on Varys’ promise?  I dunna know because Varys disappeared after the Tyrion/Tywin incident. I assume it was the royals who issued the bounty.

I’m thinking Shadrich would need to deliver the girl to Cersei.

 

As an aside ---- it appears to me that in these Sansa threads people kinda bypass the Sansa Lannister part.

[Makk]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I don't think Sansa will marry Harry. It is some hogwash LF is telling her.  Sansa Lannister is wanted in connection to King Joffrey's death. The Mad Mouse has found his target. Until the Lannister's are usurped and her marriage is annulled by hook or crook, Sansa is a fugitive.

The War of the Five Kings is finished. The Vale did not participate. Why would the Vale lords now rise against the IT?

As it stands Stannis is waging war on the new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton.

It's definitely hogwash from Littlefinger's point of view, but he has set it up to keep up a facade and if he loses control of events it could actually happen if other parties actually want it to. Lysa and Littlefinger kept the Vale out of the war, but I don't think the Vale lords, or the people for that matter, have any great love for the iron throne. There is likely still (wrongly) some suspicion about Jon Arryn being poisoned by the Lannister's and even Roberts death could be called into question with all these incest accusations thrown around. Harry is a bit of a hothead, if Sansa marries him and he comes into power, I have no doubt she could convince him to go north to war if she wanted to.

Shadrich has found his target, and something will definitely happen around that, but will he really be able to simply take her away? I don't really have a strong feeling about what will happen here. It could go all sorts of ways although I do think Sansa will somehow take down Littlefinger.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Risto and @The Weirwoods Eyes (and anybody else), Do you believe that Sansa will wed Harry before she marches north? 

I see zero chance that Sansa marries Harry the Heir (or anyone else, at least in the near future).  She has no interest in another marriage, and is only going along with Baelish's plans because she has been told to, and sees no alternative, for now.  However, given the fact that she is a fugitive and already married, avoiding an undesired marriage to Harry shouldn't be too hard.

I do expect her to go North.  There is nothing for her in the South, except enemies.  I expect that the Others are going to make their move any moment now (I am actually surprised that they haven't already).  When that happens, Jon and the rest of the Northerners are going to be screaming for help from all quarters.  Sansa, with the Vale armies, would be in a good position to provide that help.  

@Clegane'sPup I am not entirely convinced that Shadrich knows that he has found Sansa.  In any case, he is not Cersei's agent, or Varys's.  He is a free-lance; a mercenary.  He is looking for a payday, or a good long-term gig.  If he thinks Sansa can offer him a better deal than Cersei, I expect he'll take it. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I see zero chance that Sansa marries Harry the Heir (or anyone else, at least in the near future).  She has no interest in another marriage, and is only going along with Baelish's plans because she has been told to, and sees no alternative, for now.  However, given the fact that she is a fugitive and already married, avoiding an undesired marriage to Harry shouldn't be too hard.

I do expect her to go North.  There is nothing for her in the South, except enemies.  I expect that the Others are going to make their move any moment now (I am actually surprised that they haven't already).  When that happens, Jon and the rest of the Northerners are going to be screaming for help from all quarters.  Sansa, with the Vale armies, would be in a good position to provide that help.  

If she doesn't wed the heir to the Eyrie, why would the knight of the Vale follow her to war in the North? 

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I am not entirely convinced that Shadrich knows that he has found Sansa.  In any case, he is not Cersei's agent, or Varys's.  He is a free-lance; a mercenary.  He is looking for a payday, or a good long-term gig.  If he thinks Sansa can offer him a better deal than Cersei, I expect he'll take it. 

There’s a line in Alayne, I that 

Spoiler

kinda gives it away...

Quote

“Will you be seeking wings?” the Royce girl said.

“A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.”

“Perhaps you will try the melee instead?” Alayne suggested.  The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms.

“A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

“I suppose not. But now you must excuse us, ser, we need to find my lord father. “

Alayne, Winds

 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If she doesn't wed the heir to the Eyrie, why would the knight of the Vale follow her to war in the North? 

Because she's Sansa Stark?  And asks nicely, in person.  The lords of the Vale were itching to help Robb; the only thing preventing them was Lysa's refusal.  And it's clear they don't like Baelish.  This would be Sansa's first test as a political player.  Hopefully she passes. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Risto and @The Weirwoods Eyes (and anybody else), Do you believe that Sansa will wed Harry before she marches north? 

No, I'm inclined to think the marriage will not happen.  Sansa is indeed still married to Tyrion and whilst I do think eventually that problem will be overcome, I don't think it will be in order for her to marry Harry. I think he is her paper shield currently. 

She doesn't need Harry to take the Vale North with her, She has the heart of the current Vale Lord Robert Arryn in her hand.

 I don't think LF will be able to resist the idea of having the North, the Vale and technically the RL all under his power. So when the North opens up via Stannis's death and the idea of taking WF comes to him (probably via a little Sansa manipulation) that he will ask SR's permission to instruct the Knights to take Sansa North.

Robert won't need much persuasion as he adores his cousin. And if she is once again a Stark there is no longer a barrier to his dream of wedding her when he is older. Sansa may promise her hand or perhaps as I think she's too clever for promises to suggest she may be receptive to a suit one day. For the assistance in getting her back to her castle.

So Harry is irrelevant to actually taking WF. I think as I've hinted at in the stuff in the spoiler box, that Harry's role in the story is more about Sansa learning how to play the game

in ALAYNE I TWOW:

Spoiler

She flirts with  Harry as instructed by LF, but she does not desire him she has learnt that a pretty face does not a good husband make, and that this boy is a fuck boy; we know that Sansa only wishes to re-wed if it is for love.

She follows LF's instructions but not to the letter, she insults Harry and teases him in a far more sexually knowing way than LF suggested. He also told her to take him out onto the balcony which would have been a far too risky for a girl of her position.

Especially with a boy of Harry's type. So she's showing that she's not completely LF's pawn. He'd have had her compromise her chastity or at the least the public perception of it. Why? I suspect so he can manipulate Harry through having "dishonoured" his daughter, into accepting the betrothal.  

She's going along with the plan, but she doesn't want it for herself; it's just a means of going North long term; which is her hearts desire. And she isn't going to compromise herself for LF's benefit, she's more intelligent than he thinks she is and understands the connotations of slipping outside with a boy at a party.

Where as understanding Harry's type,  she has used words to entice him instead, what is said between a man and a woman on the dance floor is private. But that woman slipping out onto the balcony with a known lothario is public.  

Likewise, she tells LF she does not know how to flirt, which is utter bollocks. She's just flirted her way across the yard; she's playing LF too.  She's seen what he wants her to be, guileless, innocent, malleable. And she's giving him that. "Once you know what a man wants you know how to move him." 

 

2

 

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perfectly logical. 

Thank you. 

[Lollygag]

Whatever does happen, I suspect Jaime and Brienne might be a part of this under the direction of Stoneheart. I have trouble believing Stoneheart doesn’t piece together that LF is now acting Lord of the Vale , suddenly has a teenage bastard daughter, and Sansa just disappeared from KL.

LF now has legal guardianship over Sansa and all of the Stark kids actually by having become their legal uncle with no other ranking Tullys around at the moment. Edmure and the Blackfish might supersede LF, but Edmure is imprisoned and the Blackfish is MIA.

Jaime has a claim to guardianship over Sansa as a Lannister, as her brother-in-law, and as Lord of Casterly Rock which he automatically becomes with a resignation from the KG. He unofficially resigned when he burned Cersei’s letter. Precedent was established for Jaime’s being released from the KG when they released Barristan for exactly the same reasons which now apply to Jaime. I’m guessing that this may be how he gets Stoneheart to play along: he swears to her as Lord of Casterly Rock. I don’t think she’d be able to turn that down.

I suspect that LF encouraged Joff to abuse Sansa, not that he needed much encouragement. Sansa’s beloved knights constantly beating the songs out of her on the orders of her beautiful prince sounds more like LF’s grooming than Joff’s dim-witted brutality. We then see Sansa married to Tyrion, someone who can’t compete with LF. I don’t think LF will allow Sansa to marry to anyone who might compete with him for her affection or influence over her. So no Harry as he is still too close to the handsome knight type which he thinks she still wants.

Lyn Corbray is getting a lot of mention so I think he will be a big factor in Sansa’s arc. LF considers Lyn an ally, so it’s possible that he knows who Sansa is. We know that Lyn is ambitious and Lionel marrying is now leaving Lyn without anything. I wouldn’t be shocked at all if Lyn had his own plans for marrying her for Winterfell, being a very distant Winterfell heir himself.

I might say that this is LFs true plan. Lyn prefers boys, has no romantic knight appeal at all, and LF thinks he’s easy to manipulate. Lyn being a strong sort with his own Stark blood would strengthen Sansa’s hold over Winterfell if LF thought she could be questioned. I can see how LF might see Lyn as a marriage option for Sansa in that Lyn will never be competition for LF, but I don’t see how Lyn could secure the Vale.

Edit: Another possibility to throw out.

I think there's set up for an escape from the Vale. The Wildlings are loyal to Tyrion. If Jaime, Brienne and Sansa make an escape after screwing over the Arryns, I think they'd aid their escape and hinder anyone from following. LF and Robert could march the Vale army North to try to reclaim custody of Sansa.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

LF now has legal guardianship over Sansa and all of the Stark kids actually by having become their legal uncle with no other ranking Tullys around at the moment.

I'm not quite following this train of thought.

LF has no guardianship of Sansa Lannister. Alayne Stone does not exist. It is a lie, a scam.

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm not quite following this train of thought.

LF has no guardianship of Sansa Lannister. Alayne Stone does not exist. It is a lie, a scam.

LF is the legal uncle of all of the Tully-Stark kids by way of his marriage to Lysa and does have a guardianship claim because there are no others around (at the moment) who have a better claim of their guardianship.

Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Edmure, the Blackfish, Jon as KitN, Stoneheart all have better guardianship claims in regards to Sansa specifically, but they'd have to show up first to contest LF.

[Mladen]

30 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm not quite following this train of thought.

LF has no guardianship of Sansa Lannister. Alayne Stone does not exist. It is a lie, a scam.

Well, take it with GRRM. In his opinion, Sansa Lannister doesn't exist (actually you can't even find this repulsive amalgamation in the books). However, he is rather sure of Alayne's existence. 

[Clegane'sPup]

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

LF is the legal uncle of all of the Tully-Stark kids by way of his marriage to Lysa and does have a guardianship claim because there are no others around (at the moment) who have a better claim of their guardianship.

Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Edmure, the Blackfish, Jon as KitN, Stoneheart all have better guardianship claims in regards to Sansa specifically, but they'd have to show up first to contest LF.

Thanks for providing the info.

In all seriousness this is a bit above my pay grade.

My nagging neck rub thought is Sansa Lannister is a woman flowered and wed.

I can kinda see see what you are saying.

LF marrying Lysa Tully Arryn doesn't equate to becoming the guardian of Sansa Stark Lannister.

Feel free to ignore my comment. I'm just not getting it.

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, take it with GRRM. In his opinion, Sansa Lannister doesn't exist (actually you can't even find this repulsive amalgamation in the books). However, he is rather sure of Alayne's existence. 

not cool

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 27.7.2017 at 7:00 PM, Nevets said:

I am not entirely convinced that Shadrich knows that he has found Sansa.  In any case, he is not Cersei's agent, or Varys's.  He is a free-lance; a mercenary.  He is looking for a payday, or a good long-term gig.  If he thinks Sansa can offer him a better deal than Cersei, I expect he'll take it. 

There was a thread with a theory that Shadrich is Howland Reed in disguise looking for Stark's children, in this case for Sansa. Though Sansa is a known figutive and there should a lot of people looking for her to get some reward, I think Shadrich isn't one of them.I also doubt that he works for Varys too.