How was the Mountain able to rape and pillage the RL so easily??

[aryagonnakill#2]

9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's, uh, not accurate.

The King's men were ambushed by Gregor at the Mummer's Ford, which is in the central RL along the Red Fork of the Trident.

“But Gregor was waiting for us at the Mummer’s Ford, with men concealed on both banks. As we crossed he fell upon us from front and rear.”

But to answer the OP, Karyl Vance and Marq Piper were able to leading raiding parties on active armies who had scouts, guards, and outriders. How hard do you think it would be to start that in peacetime with little to no intelligence for the defenders to a act off of.

1 detail being off does not make the entire post incorrect.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One thing I never understood about the Mountain was how he managed to have three wives. What lord would marry their daughter to Gregor Clegane? It's not even like he comes from a prestigious house; he's just a monstrous landed knight. 

[giant snake]

My only guess is that they were broke, or maybe he married down.  I don't remember.  Did he even care if they were noblewomen?  I don't think he had any children and probably couldn't even have children if he tried.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:55 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

1 detail being off does not make the entire post incorrect.

You are correct on this point. However I neglected to point out the other things that were wrong too. For example, the RLs had already been called to RR by Edmure. Part of the reason all those castles fell was because there were fewer people to defend them. Raventree Hall's lord was at RR regrouping the remaining soldiers after their loss to Jaime's forces.

And there were forces to fight the mountain after Robb goes west. How else do you explain Darry being recaptured by Darry men and then burnt again by the Mountain. Blackwood and Bracken fought and won their castles back too. Bracken bitched about it because his only male heirs died during the fighting. There's probably more examples of that but Edmure let the men go back to reclaim their castles.

[Nevets]

On 7/7/2017 at 8:50 AM, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

Gregor was able to succeed because he was attacking essentially undefended villages and holdfasts.  It was peacetime, and Gregor's forces were essentially military in nature.  Once the lords (Piper and Vance) figured out what was going on, they were able to garrison vulnerable locations, but by then, Gregor had gone back home.  Had the Riverlanders gone after Gregor in the Westerlands, that would have brought them into open conflict with Tywin, which may have been the intent.  By the time they went to Ned, they were after vengeance and justice, not protection.  Certainly Ned was relieved they brought it to him, so the Crown could deal with it, and hopefully avoid open conflict. 

Beric didn't track down Gregor.  Gregor ambushed him at the Mummer's Ford.  Of course, once Robert died and Cersei was in power, the gloves came off, and full-scale war erupted.  By then, Tywin could attack the Riverlands with essential impunity, and did.

[Stormking902]

20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You are correct on this point. However I neglected to point out the other things that were wrong too. For example, the RLs had already been called to RR by Edmure. Part of the reason all those castles fell was because there were fewer people to defend them. Raventree Hall's lord was at RR regrouping the remaining soldiers after their loss to Jaime's forces.

And there were forces to fight the mountain after Robb goes west. How else do you explain Darry being recaptured by Darry men and then burnt again by the Mountain. Blackwood and Bracken fought and won their castles back too. Bracken bitched about it because his only male heirs died during the fighting. There's probably more examples of that but Edmure let the men go back to reclaim their castles.

Edmure allowing his bannerman to return home to retake there castles was a huge mistake in my eyes one that weakend his nephew Robb by a lot. 

[Graydon Hicks]

On 7/10/2017 at 6:13 PM, Nevets said:

Gregor was able to succeed because he was attacking essentially undefended villages and holdfasts.  It was peacetime, and Gregor's forces were essentially military in nature.  Once the lords (Piper and Vance) figured out what was going on, they were able to garrison vulnerable locations, but by then, Gregor had gone back home.  Had the Riverlanders gone after Gregor in the Westerlands, that would have brought them into open conflict with Tywin, which may have been the intent.  By the time they went to Ned, they were after vengeance and justice, not protection.  Certainly Ned was relieved they brought it to him, so the Crown could deal with it, and hopefully avoid open conflict. 

Beric didn't track down Gregor.  Gregor ambushed him at the Mummer's Ford.  Of course, once Robert died and Cersei was in power, the gloves came off, and full-scale war erupted.  By then, Tywin could attack the Riverlands with essential impunity, and did.

i also think that tywin/gregor were playing on the fact that clegane was one of tywin's most useful weapons. sure, by riding around posing as a bandit, tywin could claim denial if gregor managed to get himself caught and dragged before king for jsutice, washing his hand of the matter and none but Ned, maybe one or two others, would dispute it. not like robert would move his ass enough to denounce his father in law, who happens to be bank rolling the throne at the moment. and if gregor happened to be killed in the field instead, then tywin could likely claim that the riverlords unjustly murdered one of his bannerman, thus insulting house lannister, and be justified in bringing his wrath to bear of the riverlands.

[Frey Kings]

The most recognizable war criminal should've been executed a long time ago. How he commanded 300 people to do quick raids without running into anyone with a sword puzzles me.

[Graydon Hicks]

 

23 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

The most recognizable war criminal should've been executed a long time ago. How he commanded 300 people to do quick raids without running into anyone with a sword puzzles me.

he may have been a war criminal, but hes the most powerful weapon in tywin's arsenal. and tywin doesnt throw away tools until he absolutely has to. we know ned called for gregor to be punished for the butchery of the targaryen family, but robert didnt bow to the demand, not when tywin had that massive, nearly untouched army right there at kingslanding, while robert's and neds forces were exhausted from the campaign against royalist forces in the riverlands and northern crownlands. tywin had been sitting pretty in the rock until the battle of the ruby ford, then took his army and made straight for the capital. i dont think robert or arryn were in any position to force tywin to give up his bannerman, and robert was disinclined to press the issue of justice for rhaegar's family.

[marsyao]

On 7/7/2017 at 10:50 AM, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

How can these small folks resist Mountain? These were a few hundreds professional soldiers on fast horses, they came, they hit and they left before Riverland Lords arrive, and there was no way for Riverland people to try to set a trap for him since Mountain would not tell where was his next target. Besides, Mountain was both cruel and rash, but he was not stupid, he had perfect tactical sense of commanding small to medium size units, he was no Napoleon, but he would make an excellent battalion commander 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

I doubt it was 300 should be 30 or so, Ned sent 70 men you don't send 70 against 300.

 

300 Mounted soldiers would be a match for all but the most powerful lords.  Look at how many men Webber commands in D&E and she has several castles/holdfasts.

 

They were supposedly brigands not a small army.  300 sounds right to ambush Neds 70 but if the original number was 300 Ned would have had to send close to a thousand and Tywin would then need 3k+ to outnumber and capture him, a much harder prospect the larger the force.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

I doubt it was 300 should be 30 or so, Ned sent 70 men you don't send 70 against 300.

300 Mounted soldiers would be a match for all but the most powerful lords.  Look at how many men Webber commands in D&E and she has several castles/holdfasts.

They were supposedly brigands not a small army.  300 sounds right to ambush Neds 70 but if the original number was 300 Ned would have had to send close to a thousand and Tywin would then need 3k+ to outnumber and capture him, a much harder prospect the larger the force.

Ned sent more than 70. He sent 120. For their number all we know is:

“A hundred, at the least,” Joss answered, in the same instant as the bandaged smith said, “Fifty,” and the grandmother behind him, “Hunnerds and hunnerds, m’lord, an army they was.”

He also sent them to fetch Gregor under the king's peace banner. He didn't expect them to be attacked (or to attack "the brigands") OR Robert to die. If Ned had been attacked by the Mountain and his men, it would have bode very ill for Tywin and his men.
 

[The Commentator]

On 7/7/2017 at 10:50 AM, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

Gregor and his men rarely encountered trained soldiers.  They raided farm people.  So you say farm people make up the most of a lord's levies.  Fine, but these farm boys have simple, clearly defined roles on the battlefield.   Mainly keeping their lances pointed towards the enemy and holding the line.  Try forming a line at the last minute against a raid.  It's going to be hard. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

32 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Gregor and his men rarely encountered trained soldiers.  They raided farm people.  So you say farm people make up the most of a lord's levies.  Fine, but these farm boys have simple, clearly defined roles on the battlefield.   Mainly keeping their lances pointed towards the enemy and holding the line.  Try forming a line at the last minute against a raid.  It's going to be hard. 

The farmboys and apprentices would not have been the ones going to join a lord's feudal levy. It likely would have been the landowner or a son of his. The poor people are victims in this world and in the real world. 

They also wouldn't be pointing lances at the enemy. They'd be holding spears or pikes or some other long polearm.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ned sent more than 70. He sent 120. For their number all we know is:

“A hundred, at the least,” Joss answered, in the same instant as the bandaged smith said, “Fifty,” and the grandmother behind him, “Hunnerds and hunnerds, m’lord, an army they was.”

He also sent them to fetch Gregor under the king's peace banner. He didn't expect them to be attacked (or to attack "the brigands") OR Robert to die. If Ned had been attacked by the Mountain and his men, it would have bode very ill for Tywin and his men.
 

"Six score we’d been that morning. By dark no more than two score were left, and Lord Beric was gravely wounded. Thoros drew a foot of lance from his chest that night, and poured boiling wine into the hole it left."

Harwin confirms your 120,  Tywin though knew exactly the stakes he was playing against and his pride/reputation of his house was more important that causing a civil war

[Graydon Hicks]

hell, tywin considers his pride/reputation, and that of house lannister, to be the paramount objects of importance in the whole of the seven kingdoms. you cant honestly believe that if he didnt want the throne for himself, he could have taken it at almost any time immediately after rebellion? or during joff's reign? he like his position as head of house lannsiter, lord of the rock. hand of the king was more useful to him than actual king, cause the hand is effective the prime minister, in our terms, and gives him more,uhm, "acting" power, lets say, that actually being king. we have seen how cersie has place the importance of house lannister as being greater than any other house, including every single one of the other LP houses. how she insisted, and likely with tywins blessing in this, on presenting the royal symbol as both the sigils of baratheon and lannsiter, not baratheon alone, as it should have been. when i go over that part, both show and books, it just screams a level of arrogance leagues above even the tyrells of highgarden.

[Kandrax]

If Ned took black, Robb would stop warring with Lannisters. However, that wouldn't stop river lords from continuing fight against Lannisters. So, if they asked for Gregor's head, as compensation, would Tywin give them?

[cpg2016]

On 7/16/2017 at 0:37 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

hell, tywin considers his pride/reputation, and that of house lannister, to be the paramount objects of importance in the whole of the seven kingdoms. you cant honestly believe that if he didnt want the throne for himself, he could have taken it at almost any time immediately after rebellion? 

He could not have taken the Iron Throne.  House Lannister is powerful, but Robert's Rebellion far outstrips him in men and wealth, and Tywin (unlike Robert) has no legitimate claim to the Throne.

On 7/16/2017 at 0:37 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

hand of the king was more useful to him than actual king, cause the hand is effective the prime minister, in our terms, and gives him more,uhm, "acting" power, lets say, that actually being king

This is canonically wrong.  Tywin understands that the Targaryen king is a position superior to his, which is why he wants to marry Cersei into the royal line - this will prove his preeminence over the other great Houses, though not the Targaryens.

On 7/16/2017 at 0:37 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

how she insisted, and likely with tywins blessing in this, on presenting the royal symbol as both the sigils of baratheon and lannsiter, not baratheon alone, as it should have been. when i go over that part, both show and books, it just screams a level of arrogance

Yes, both Cersei and Tywin are arrogant.  But they both understand that the key is to make House Lannister equal to the royal House, which is the same as making them the undisputed primus inter pares

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 10:50 AM, Stormking902 said:

I mean he has a few hundred men tops and was able to go villiage to villiage destroying everything in his path with no retaliation at all but how?? When Ned sent Dondarion after the Mountain he seemed to have no problems tracking him wouldnt the Riverlords be able to track him much quicker?? Also the Riverlords are not stupid they know who is attacking them and they dont set a trap? The Mountain is rash and doesnt think things thru especially when hes angry a man like this is easily pushed into a trap. 

The Riverlands are suited for invasion . That is why Hoster Tully married his daughter to a Stark .