How much does Lyanna Stark look like Margaery Tyrell?

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

None

“No,” Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.”

 

That's the idea. Which begs the question: what was Renly thinking?

[mormont]

9 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

On one hand Great Lords would be rubbing their hands in glee at Tywin's cummuppence - on the other hand, however, they would be worried about Robert setting aside his wife.

Bad precedent.

Well, one thing about Renly is, he doesn't care much for tradition and precedent.

[Universal Sword Donor]

36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That's the idea. Which begs the question: what was Renly thinking?

Robert likes pretty girls. He banged a 15 year old hooker. 

Renly didn't want the Lannisters to murder his brothers and himself. If Robert was willing to set aside Cersei and her ilk, then thats 99% of the battle. Having Margaery look like Lyanna would have been the gravy on the mashed potatoes. The Lannisters being poorly boiled brussel sprouts, obviously

[Angel Eyes]

Remind me who the 15-year-old hooker was.

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Remind me who the 15-year-old hooker was.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mhaegen

[Damon_Tor]

On 8/26/2017 at 6:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So how well would that go with Tywin? Would the rains sweep over Storm's End, with no one left to hear?

It's difficult to imagine that Tywin would be able to project force in the Stormlands like he did in the West, where the targets were his own vassals and he had casus belli.

[Universal Sword Donor]

24 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's difficult to imagine that Tywin would be able to project force in the Stormlands like he did in the West, where the targets were his own vassals and he had casus belli.

Tywin would be roundly stomped. He might overrun the Riverlands but that's just him being petulant on the way to his demise.

[Damon_Tor]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin would be roundly stomped. He might overrun the Riverlands but that's just him being petulant on the way to his demise.

Especially since he knows his family's position is tenuous: his mines are dry. He doesn't have the money to pour into such an endeavor.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Especially since he knows his family's position is tenuous: his mines are dry. He doesn't have the money to pour into such an endeavor.

In the books? Because I only remember the line about the dry mines in the show.

[Raisin' Bran]

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

22 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Especially since he knows his family's position is tenuous: his mines are dry. He doesn't have the money to pour into such an endeavor.

In the books? Because I only remember the line about the dry mines in the show.

Yes I recall that Book!Tywin mentioned that the Wo5K outstripped the production of the mines and that they were running a deficit. No mention was made of the mines running out of ore.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/26/2017 at 8:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So how well would that go with Tywin? Would the rains sweep over Storm's End, with no one left to hear?

If the twincest had come up and been proven, Tywin would have been first in line to execute Cersei. But he would have had a niece or cousin standing by (a la Catherine Howard) to take Cersei's place.

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Yes I recall that Book!Tywin mentioned that the Wo5K outstripped the production of the mines and that they were running a deficit. No mention was made of the mines running out of ore.

Quote? Because I don't remember a single quote of anything to that effect. The only mention of mines I can remember were when Tywin was talking about the Westerlings.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 29/08/2017 at 1:33 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If the twincest had come up and been proven, Tywin would have been first in line to execute Cersei. But he would have had a niece or cousin standing by (a la Catherine Howard) to take Cersei's place.

The twincest could never have been conclusively proven though, so Tywin would have continued to fight the claim. He wouldn't have wanted that stain on his reputation.

I doubt Renly knew about Cersei and Jaime, anyway. I imagine his plan was just to make up some story about Cersei being unfaithful, just like she did with Marge. Or maybe he was going to poison her.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The twincest could never have been conclusively proven though, so Tywin would have continued to fight the claim. He wouldn't have wanted that stain on his reputation.

I doubt Renly knew about Cersei and Jaime, anyway. I imagine his plan was just to make up some story about Cersei being unfaithful, just like she did with Marge. Or maybe he was going to poison her.

I think if the truth had come out Jaime would have admitted it, even publicly. In such circumstances Tywin wouldn't have much choice but act as if it was true even if he was in denial.

Renly certainly didn't know at first but he did by the time he and Stannis met in ACOK. He references a letter that Stannis sent. Of course by then it's too late for poor Robert to find happiness with the lovely Margaery.

[devilish]

Renly never met Lyanna and since selfies weren't yet in vogue I doubt that he had a good idea of how she looked apart from the general features (ie brown hair). What Renly was suggesting is more of her character then anything else. Margaery is independent, intelligent and is physically closer to Lyanna then the Lannister viper is. Let us not forget that the young stag was probablyrelying on the heavily romantised version of Lyanna portrayed by Robert, a man who barely knew Lyanna himself. 

[Walda]

On 30/08/2017 at 4:37 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Quote?

Quote

the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn’s Deep, and the Pendric Hills. Ser Wendel laughed. “Nothing’s more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold.”

(ACoK, Ch.39 Catelyn V)

Re: @Damon_Tor's point, the only place in the book where a mine is unambiguously described as failed is:

Quote

The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold.

(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

According to the World of Ice and Fire, the Castamere mines were sealed and flooded when they rose up in defiance against Tywin, all those years ago, before the current generation of Lannisters were born.

Cersei had Tommen give the castle to Ser Rolph Spicer. Maybe the title to the castle included the mines, and Spicer has only to unseal the shafts and pump out the water to claim fabulous wealth. Some of which he could use to renovate his castle

Quote

the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock.

(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

Ser Wendel is blithely oblivious to any suspicion that the mines of Castamere were made unusable by Tywin, and are not in fact the property of the Lannisters. The gold in Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills are also probably enriching some banner man of Tywin's (or not).

The Lannister-owned mine at Golden Tooth held a Lannister host that smashed the old Lord Vance, was bypassed by Robb, and retained it's strength under Ser Forley Prester even after the Battle of the Camps. Strong enough to be the place Jaime escorted Edmure Tully to, after taking him from the Freys. Strong enough to march back down to besiege the Blackfish at Riverrun, with the new Lord Vance's men as 'sullen' allies, but allies nonetheless. I strongly suspect it played a role in discreetly transporting the barges of Highgarden to Tumbler's Falls so their host could ambush Stannis at the battle of Blackwater.

It was not one of these barges that transported Ser Wendel's bones to his father. Barges are not so good for open seas. But Ser Wendel's bones came home in a vessel with a Lannister lion on the sail.

While the Lannister mines were used as bases and strongholds in the Wo5K, I can't find a single reference that even hints they have dried up, or are not in a usable state.

Although, even if they had been, Tywin would not have been a poor man. He diversified his portfolio, and has money in financial services sector as well as natural resources. Looking into @Raisin' Bran's point, the crown is in deficit, but there is no sign Tywin is.

Quote

“The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it

(AGoT, Ch.20 Eddard IV)

Except that it is Littlefinger that says it, there is no reason to suppose this is a lie. Tywin Lannister had a large stock of sovereign bonds, He has been keeping an eye on it too, at first in propria persona:

Quote

Littlefinger borrowed heavily. From you [Lord Tywin], amongst others.

(ASoS, Ch.32 Tyrion IV)

and later, through his son (the one with the head for figures, that had fixed the drains at Casterley Rock) who he installed as Master of Coin immediately after requiring Petyr vacate the position.

Quote

A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.
Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king’s debts in promises, and put the king’s gold to work...The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

Not a bad position to be in, being the man who underwrites Petyr Baelish. Being the Lannister most known for owning armies and knowing what to do with them, and for being notorious for paying back those that turned against him, or forgot Tywin was a Lannister that always pays his debts. Littlefinger must have been paying him a nice fat dividend, every year he continued to enjoy Tywin's favour.  Littlefinger doesn't have an army to protect himself, yet. And Tywin had his biggest weapon: the books.

Now Tywin is dead, but Tyrion has the advantage of having looked into Petyr's books in depth, and knowing how the deals in them worked. And of having an army.

Quote

If ever he went back to Westeros to claim his birthright, he would have all the gold of Casterly Rock to make good on his promises. If not, well, he’d be dead, and his new brothers could wipe their arses with these parchments.

 (ADwD, Ch.66 Tyrion XII)

Knowledge, and an army. I'd rate Tyrion's negotiating position against Baelish as strong, if her returns to the seven Kingdoms. Petyr had better pay up what he owed in that case.

Even after Lord Tywin is dead and gone, the appendix to the last book repeats the claim made in the first, and in every book except Clash of Kings. The one that claims:

Quote

The gold of Casterly Rock and the Golden Tooth has made them [the Lannisters] the wealthiest of the Great Houses.

(ADwD, Appendix)

@Raisin' Bran, I don't like your chances of finding that quote.

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Walda said:

<snip>

Yeah pretty much what I remember. Thanks for grabbing those quotes. That's a far more expansive picture that what I searched for. None of those quotes supports the Lannisters running out of money, and by the time Tywin dies the crown and noble families who lost their seats had reclaimed them. And the gold in the Golden Tooth wouldn't belong to the Lannisters anyway. It would belong to the Leffords, who in turn would pass along part of its value in taxes to their overlords, the Lannisters.

Tywin granted lordship of Castermere and those other grants as part of the red wedding.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think Renly assumed Robert loved Lyanna because he thought she was beautiful and she just happened to be a Stark. When in reality Robert loved Lyanna because she was a Stark who just happened to be beautiful.

Bob was one of the Starks biggest fan boys.

[Raisin' Bran]

22 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Quote? Because I don't remember a single quote of anything to that effect. The only mention of mines I can remember were when Tywin was talking about the Westerlings.

Sorry. I swear I had seen that discussed between Tyrion and Tywin in ASoS. I spent a little while yesterday looking for the quote and could not find it. Ok, I recant my previous statement.

[goldenmaps]

It was just one of the plans that the Tyrells had to make Marg queen.  I don't think Renly thought that she looked like Lyanna.  Marg is pretty, so even if she doesn't look like a Stark, they thought it wouldn't matter.

As I recall, Viserys was still alive and Robert was terrified about the Targs.  He had spies and didn't like that Dany married Drogo.  I thought that one of the reasons he married Cersei was to bind the Lannisters to the crown.  They would need a good reason to set Cersei aside.

Anyway, the only woman who looked like Lyanna was Arya.