Football: International Break-Up

[ljkeane]

4 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I mean, he has the skillset to be a player a lot like Dele Alli.

In what sense? He’s been a pretty good player at various points but I wouldn’t say Mata’s ever been a similar player to Alli.

[polishgenius]

18 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

In what sense? He’s been a pretty good player at various points but I wouldn’t say Mata’s ever been a similar player to Alli.

The second season at Chelsea where he scored twelve league goals, he was a dab hand at making those kind of movements around and into the box to get onto passes that Alli has been great at.

[ljkeane]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

The second season at Chelsea where he scored twelve league goals, he was a dab hand at making those kind of movements around and into the box to get onto passes that Alli has been great at.

Fair enough.

I think a significant part of Alli’s role in the Spurs side is his contribution to their pressing game though, which has never been Mata’s forte. I’m not too convinced Mata as a reliable goal scorer wasn’t the aberration rather than the norm either, he can chip in with some goals but he’s not a consistently composed finisher. Mata as a creative influence is where he’s really underperforming/under-utilised for me.

[polishgenius]

23 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Fair enough.

I think a significant part of Alli’s role in the Spurs side is his contribution to their pressing game though, which has never been Mata’s forte.

Oh, agreed. But I'm thinking of his contribution to our attack. And to our creativity, to which I agree, that's really what we want from him and what he isn't doing. And partly that's misuse, but partly it's because he's got a bad attitude on the pitch, in terms of showing for the ball and then doing anything other than the safest thing with it.

[Consigliere]

13 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Mkhi's been pathetic, yeah. But Lingard, while not having the technical skill, is the only player other than Rashford who offers intelligent movement and keeps things moving a bit. It might well be true that he can give us that just as well from the right, but I'm just not convinced putting Mata central will make a huge difference.

Thing is we really don't have other options atm due to Mkhi's form. Lingard should not be played there. He has neither the guile nor passing range to be a #10 and I feel his pace and movement would be of better use on the right. Mkhi is the best #10 we have and ideally it would be him in the hole with either Mata or Lingard on the right. Pogba has been a loss but the form of Mkhi and Mata is an even bigger issue and is the main reason why we have been so ineffective going forward as we currently have no-one who can link up play.

[Daemon the Leaner]

The 4231 is part of the problem IMO. This system puts too much responsabilities on the shoulders of the guy who plays in the axis. We'd rather come back to the 433 that gave us a good winning streak last season. Something like this :

Mkhi - Matic - Ander

Mata - Lukaku - Martial

...with Pogba replacing Ander as soon as he comes back. In this system, the playmaking relies not only on a single #10 but on both midfielders (Pogba/Ander and Mkhi). I do know that Mata is not a reliable right winger, but he would be allowed to drift inside if the game asks for it.

What remains to be asked is: would Mkhi & Ander be a good pair of central midifielders? Especially considering that the former plays more oftenly as playmaker, while the latter is more a ball-winning midfielder? That's the issue...

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

The 4231 is part of the problem IMO. This system puts too much responsabilities on the shoulders of the guy who plays in the axis. We'd rather come back to the 433 that gave us a good winning streak last season. Something like this :

Mkhi - Matic - Ander

Mata - Lukaku - Martial

...with Pogba replacing Ander as soon as he comes back. In this system, the playmaking relies not only on a single #10 but on both midfielders (Pogba/Ander and Mkhi). I do know that Mata is not a reliable right winger, but he would be allowed to drift inside if the game asks for it.

What remains to be asked is: would Mkhi & Ander be a good pair of central midifielders? Especially considering that the former plays more oftenly as playmaker, while the latter is more a ball-winning midfielder? That's the issue...

That would still place all the play making burden on Mkhi except now he is also playing out of position. Herrera offers nothing in the creative department despite having spent most of his career as either a #8 or #10. He is now exclusively a ball winning midfielder who is good at disrupting the opposition. A 4-3-3 would only work well with Pogba in it. Currently, I don't think a formation change will be much help. Whether it is 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or a three-at-the-back system, all will rely on Mkhi and/or Mata to provide the link up play and both of them are in a poor run of form atm. We desperately need Pogba back and for Mkhi and Mata to get their shit together, especially Mkhi.

I think it has become painfully clear that the team lacks creative options. We need another creative CM, another #10 (if Özil is available we should be in for him), a right midfielder (maybe Roman will do us another solid and sell us Willian ) and a good attacking LB (we cannot keep waiting on Shaw hoping that he comes good and can stay fit. Young has done a decent job for us but we need someone better. Blind and Darmian offer nothing in attack).

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

 I think it has become painfully clear that the team lacks creative options.

Which is embarrassing considering how much we spend on them.

Ozil wouldn't surprise me, and he'd be an upgrade on Mata- per some stats he creates as many chances as KDB, and while that's a slightly nebulous stat it is unquestionable that he's one of the best executors of the final through-ball in the world- but he still has some of the same issues, even if not as much as is sometimes made out. I'd definitely rather someone with a bit more of a physical dynamism- in the style of Nabil Fekir, although he's a bit unproven- but Ozil would improve us.

I'm fairly sure we're still gonna get Griezmann next summer, unless PSG or someone swoop in with an even more megadeal. He'll solve some of the issues even if he isn't a playmaker.

Midfield-wise, it'd be boss if we finally got Radja Nainggolan, but I don't see that happening especially with Roma's resurgence right now.


Eta: Spurs are all over Madrid at the moment.

[Daemon the Leaner]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

That would still place all the play making burden on Mkhi except now he is also playing out of position. Herrera offers nothing in the creative department despite having spent most of his career as either a #8 or #10. He is now exclusively a ball winning midfielder who is good at disrupting the opposition. A 4-3-3 would only work well with Pogba in it.

Well, no offense to Mkhi, but I think that his defensive skills are currently equivalent, if not higher, than his offensive skills. Mkhi is able to win the ball and launch a counter-attack, that's why I'd rather play him as a 8 than as a 10 or RW at the moment.

I am aware about Ander, but I'm still convinced that he can be a good CM when he wants. Just remember this cross to Zlatan in League Cup final?

I agree with the Pogba point.

 

[Mark Antony]

Damn chill Spurs

[Consigliere]

Heh, Spurs sorting Real Madrid out. Since demolishing Barca in the Super Copa, Real have been mostly shit. Even lowly Girona gave them a proper game and got the better of them at the weekend. Too bad Dortmund have been quite poor as well otherwise Madrid could have been in serious trouble in this group given their form.

 

59 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Ozil wouldn't surprise me, and he'd be an upgrade on Mata- per some stats he creates as many chances as KDB, and while that's a slightly nebulous stat it is unquestionable that he's one of the best executors of the final through-ball in the world- but he still has some of the same issues, even if not as much as is sometimes made out. I'd definitely rather someone with a bit more of a physical dynamism- in the style of Nabil Fekir, although he's a bit unproven- but Ozil would improve us.

I'm fairly sure we're still gonna get Griezmann next summer, unless PSG or someone swoop in with an even more megadeal. He'll solve some of the issues even if he isn't a playmaker.

Midfield-wise, it'd be boss if we finally got Radja Nainggolan, but I don't see that happening especially with Roma's resurgence right now.

Wouldn't mind Fekir either but Özil potentially on a free might be just too good to pass up. If we get Griezmann, I'm wondering where he would play - on the right or in the #10 role. I know he played on the left at Real Sociedad but he is a CF now. It would be an awful lot of money to spend to play him outside his preferred position. This is probably Carrick's last season so there will be a vacancy in midfield. I hope we replace him with a creative box-to-boxer rather than a more defensively inclined midfielder.

[The Wedge]

16 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Damn chill Spurs

Did anyone have them guaranteed in the round of 16 after 4 games ( with two of those against RM?).  I'd venture to guess not.

Spurs are fun to watch when they hit on all cylinders.

[Eggegg]

10 minutes ago, The Wedge said:

Did anyone have them guaranteed in the round of 16 after 4 games ( with two of those against RM?).  I'd venture to guess not.

Spurs are fun to watch when they hit on all cylinders.

Yeah Real were not great last night. They still had that danger factor from Ronaldo but like most games these days he's often quiet until he scores.

Trippier was a real menace on the right, he dribbled past 2 players like he was Messi at one point. Delle Alli will get all the plaudits but he tends to make up for his lack of skill with application and movement, I think he's got a long way to go still.

Either way, just watching the quality of Spurs' defending was great, they were communicating constantly with each other, exploiting the gaps Real were leaving and ferrying them into positions they wanted them to be in. Great to watch.

[Consigliere]

Yeah, Spurs were excellent defensively. Good defending doesn't seem to get the praise it deserves these days since it is not as 'pretty' to watch.

Think that Real left themselves a bit short this season and needed to freshen up the squad a bit. They needed a solid CB to replace Pepe especially since Varane is so injury prone and Ramos fancies himself as a forward while Marcelo plays more as a winger than a fullback. This leaves them very vulnerable to counter-attacks. They also needed a replacement for Morata (or not sell him in the first place). Benzema did not impress me last season and has been poor thus far this season. Think he is now in decline. Zidane also needs to instill some discipline back into this team as they have been leaving themselves far too open this season.

[Eggegg]

23 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yeah, Spurs were excellent defensively. Good defending doesn't seem to get the praise it deserves these days since it is not as 'pretty' to watch.

Think that Real left themselves a bit short this season and needed to freshen up the squad a bit. They needed a solid CB to replace Pepe especially since Varane is so injury prone and Ramos fancies himself as a forward while Marcelo plays more as a winger than a fullback. This leaves them very vulnerable to counter-attacks. They also needed a replacement for Morata (or not sell him in the first place). Benzema did not impress me last season and has been poor thus far this season. Think he is now in decline. Zidane also needs to instill some discipline back into this team as they have been leaving themselves far too open this season.

I noticed a huge difference in the way Real and Spurs defended, simply in terms of organisation. I didn't see very much communication and interplay between the Real players at all, they had some vague idea of how they wanted to play and seemed to have shape, but if you watched spurs there a fantastic fluidity. When Trippier was forward he was shouting at Sissoko to go to right back and then they swapped back seamlessly. That was happening all over the pitch. I was really impressed by it. Real aren't quite at Galacticos level of individualism but Spurs made them look like that in comparison.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

Delle Alli will get all the plaudits but he tends to make up for his lack of skill with application and movement, I think he's got a long way to go still.

I kinda think most players wish they had Delle Alli's 'lack of skill'.

[Eggegg]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

I kinda think most players wish they had Delle Alli's 'lack of skill'.

I'm sure most of West Brom would love to have him. I do think he's often quite overrated however. Christian Eriksen however.. now he's a player!

[Jordan La Cabra]

Tammy Abraham and Ruben Loftus-Cheek called up for the England squad.

I don't know what that says more about: the dearth of talent available to Gareth Southgate; or Chelsea's stupidty when it comes to not letting talented young English players have a chance in the first team - talented young English players who wouldn't be doing any worse than the current over priced foreign imports are currently.

[Eggegg]

58 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Tammy Abraham and Ruben Loftus-Cheek called up for the England squad.

I don't know what that says more about: the dearth of talent available to Gareth Southgate; or Chelsea's stupidty when it comes to not letting talented young English players have a chance in the first team - talented young English players who wouldn't be doing any worse than the current over priced foreign imports are currently.

Chelseas youth policy is pretty damaging, most of their young players don't seem to go anywhere. Except maybe Bertrand and a couple of others. 

But then at the same time its really hard for youth players to break into the first team at Chelsea, and I really am not sure Abraham or RLC are really up to the required standard.

It says more about how poor the England squad is that we are calling these players up. On the bright side so many players for Spurs were the backbone of the England side , which gives you a lot of optimism.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

Chelseas youth policy is pretty damaging, most of their young players don't seem to go anywhere. Except maybe Bertrand and a couple of others. 

But then at the same time its really hard for youth players to break into the first team at Chelsea, and I really am not sure Abraham or RLC are really up to the required standard.

It says more about how poor the England squad is that we are calling these players up. On the bright side so many players for Spurs were the backbone of the England side , which gives you a lot of optimism.

Bertrand is more like the international young players Chelsea sign than the ones that come out of their academy, in that he was signed as a professional from a club treating him as a senior player. All tend to struggle but the later you join, the more glamour and hype around your arrival, the more likely you are to get half a shot.