The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread

[Ferrum Aeternum]

12 hours ago, karaddin said:

For all you might want to believe otherwise, you are not a self moving soul. Belief that one can be simply further blinds oneself to the darkness that comes before.

 

5 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Karaddin did not so much reply as she schooled. All was silent for a long mement. Then the gnarly oak before here shivered, a tremor passing from the leaves to the branches, and finally shook the trunk. Tears of heavy sap spilled from what passed for his eyes. A shivering moan escaped him, and he toppled.

Thus fell the Happy Ent, pummelled by his own methods.

Meta-exchange of the year. Bravo. 

I've got some spare time this afternoon before the holiday travel/family stuff really gets rolling, so I'm going to go in for a second viewing of TLJ. Hopefully my opinion of the film (which as stated, is neither terrible nor great) will improve. 

 

 

[Ran]

@mormont

I can only say that if you look at the totality of Hamill's remarks -- like this from a junket just ahead of the release, it's quite clear that he _still_ doesn't agree with a fundamental part of Johnson's conception. He's a professional, and he did what he was told, and I think he certainly liked how Luke "went out", but doesn't change the fact that he doesn't believe his character would have been hiding on an island for years because he had given up on everything.

Which, you know, maybe it doesn't matter -- Hamill's not Luke Skywalker, he's not George Lucas, he's "just" an actor, a collaborator with the creators but not _the_ creator. But happily, I happen to agree with him that my concept of Luke doesn't fit a guy who'd run away and give up. He might well decide that his ideas of recreating the Jedi was wrong, but he still had a lot to offer outside of that, and his friends and family needed him.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

6 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Speaking of the capital ships acting like naval craft, were some of the shots the star destroyers fired at the resistance cruiser arcing through space? I had terrible seats in the theater and couldn't really tell. 

Yes, definitely arcing shots. 

We rewatched RotS last night, my son’s overall favorite, and we saw one damaged star cruiser listing & plummeting while all inside experienced a tilted world, as though the artificial gravity was somehow stuck on the plane at which they had been exchanging broadsides with the enemy.  From the very start of SW, the dogfight-around-naval-ships set-up has always dictated illogical physics and tactics in order to achieve a relatable action style.  It’s space opera, not hard SciFi.

After the movie I asked my son for ten examples where SW breaks the laws of physics (outside of the force) — and he did really well for an eleven year old. 

[Week]

20 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

 It’s space opera, not hard SciFi.

This. 100%

[Ran]

Agreed on the space opera point. That said, that RotS  scene is the one that Darth Richard mentioned earlier. It's such a bizzare scene -- it seems like a real outlier within the canon -- but there's something about stabilizers thrown out in the scene (IIRC, looked it up on Youtube) so I'll run with the idea that the artificial gravity got screwy from whatever damage the ship was taking and was not adjusting properly to the pitch of the ship.

[red snow]

27 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Yes, definitely arcing shots. 

We rewatched RotS last night, my son’s overall favorite, and we saw one damaged star cruiser listing & plummeting while all inside experienced a tilted world, as though the artificial gravity was somehow stuck on the plane at which they had been exchanging broadsides with the enemy. 

After the movie I asked my son for ten examples where SW breaks the laws of physics (outside of the force) — and he did really well for an eleven year old. 

I'd love if that was a genuine school exam question. Would make for a good essay and probably engage kids with physics too

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

@mormont

I can only say that if you look at the totality of Hamill's remarks -- like this from a junket just ahead of the release, it's quite clear that he _still_ doesn't agree with a fundamental part of Johnson's conception.

And yet in that same interview, he also says that he thinks Rian Johnson was 'the exact man for the job'.

Almost all of Hamill's criticisms are like that: they're qualified with 'it's not what I would have done but it's not my call', or 'I was wary of this but I came to understand why it was good', or even (with regard to his episode 7 appearance) 'I was wrong'. It's almost as if he remembers to have an open mind.

[Ran]

Sr

23 minutes ago, mormont said:

And yet in that same interview, he also says that he thinks Rian Johnson was 'the exact man for the job'.

Sure, the exact man for the job of making Disney's continuation of Star Wars, which features "Jake Skywalker" running to ground and quitting.

 

23 minutes ago, mormont said:

Almost all of Hamill's criticisms are like that: they're qualified with 'it's not what I would have done but it's not my call', or 'I was wary of this but I came to understand why it was good', or even (with regard to his episode 7 appearance) 'I was wrong'. It's almost as if he remembers to have an open mind.

"Almost all". I see that! That's a concession that not all of them are qualified and are pretty direct. I think we've got a winner!

Re: qualification, he's being diplomatic because he's a professional, and because the reality is he has no power over the situation, and in the end it's an opinion? He literally says he hasn't really entirely accepted it, but hey, "it's only a movie", which feels very much like his resigning himself to the situation.

It's incontrovertible that Hamill did not, and continues to not like (as of the release of the film), that aspect of what Johnson decided for Luke's history post-OT. Doesn't mean he hates Johnson, or the film, or how Luke ended, and so on and so forth. He just doesn't buy that particular characterization of Luke's response to his failure in training Ben Solo. It's his opinion.

[divica]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

@mormont

I can only say that if you look at the totality of Hamill's remarks -- like this from a junket just ahead of the release, it's quite clear that he _still_ doesn't agree with a fundamental part of Johnson's conception. He's a professional, and he did what he was told, and I think he certainly liked how Luke "went out", but doesn't change the fact that he doesn't believe his character would have been hiding on an island for years because he had given up on everything.

Which, you know, maybe it doesn't matter -- Hamill's not Luke Skywalker, he's not George Lucas, he's "just" an actor, a collaborator with the creators but not _the_ creator. But happily, I happen to agree with him that my concept of Luke doesn't fit a guy who'd run away and give up. He might well decide that his ideas of recreating the Jedi was wrong, but he still had a lot to offer outside of that, and his friends and family needed him.

 

And I think the majority of the people that like the OT agree with you and Mark. Somethings in this movie seem to be there nearly to antagonize the old fandom. They could have got the same results without being so controversial and destructive of the previous canon.

And I think Disney failed to realize that the sw is diferent from the avengers. The same recipe shouldn t be aplied here. As some people above said this is a space opera with light sabers and the force. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

And yet in that same interview, he also says that he thinks Rian Johnson was 'the exact man for the job'.

Almost all of Hamill's criticisms are like that: they're qualified with 'it's not what I would have done but it's not my call', or 'I was wary of this but I came to understand why it was good', or even (with regard to his episode 7 appearance) 'I was wrong'. It's almost as if he remembers to have an open mind.

It's called being a professional. 

Anyway,  I hate falling into these camps of either supporting something or flaming it. There is totally a middle ground here. Parts of this movie rocked,  parts sucked horribly,  and parts were just OK. All imho. 

[Ferrum Aeternum]

10 minutes ago, Relic said:

It's called being a professional. 

Anyway,  I hate falling into these camps of either supporting something or flaming it. There is totally a middle ground here. Parts of this movie rocked,  parts sucked horribly,  and parts were just OK. All imho. 

Agreed completely. Only a Sith deals in absolutes... 

[red snow]

10 minutes ago, Relic said:

It's called being a professional. 

Anyway,  I hate falling into these camps of either supporting something or flaming it. There is totally a middle ground here. Parts of this movie rocked,  parts sucked horribly,  and parts were just OK. All imho. 

Completely agree. So far I tend to agree with the points both camps are making and as such I'm in the "a lot was excellent, a lot was disappointing" but I still can't bring myself to take a firm stance on it either way. 

TFA was much easier for me in the sense I thought it was stupid but with a fast pace and entertaining characters. Rogue one was a good war caper but with characters I felt nothing for. The last jedi I find much harder to sum up.

I also agree with those saying Hamil is a professional. If he felt so strongly against the film he could have refused the role. But he had faith in the director despite his own reservations. 

I wonder how secure Rians trilogy is now? Forbes ran a piece saying the new film has the worst drop off of all the films. It openly admits this film has made coin but the concern is whether it is outperformed by rogue one (with no franchise characters besides brief Vader appearance) and whether it damages the overall franchise going forwards. It points out how Asian markets have been lukewarm (no pun intended) to the Disney films. 

Given I have little excitement for the solo movie I fear it's underperformance will mask behind the divisiveness of TLJ.

Personally I hope Rian gets the trilogy still. I actually think films removed from the core franchise in his style will be better appreciated.

If rogue one ends up outperforming this film I suspect the chances of a Vader film will massively increase. Despite barely appearing in the film I think most went expecting more and still feel his last scene was the highlight

 

[polishgenius]

35 minutes ago, divica said:

Somethings in this movie seem to be there nearly to antagonize the old fandom. They could have got the same results without being so controversial and destructive of the previous canon.

And I think Disney failed to realize that the sw is diferent from the avengers. The same recipe shouldn t be aplied here. As some people above said this is a space opera with light sabers and the force. 

 

You've managed to criticise the film for exact opposite things in this post. Either they're playing things in the safest, most widely digestible way like the Avengers/MCU mostly has been, or it's antagonistic and destructive of the canon. It can't be both.

[Week]

What has Mark Hamill written or done that his opinion of a character that he has not played in (effectively) 34 years carries enough weight to matter? 

I'm interested. I think he's a smart guy.I loved him in Wing Commander 3 (:p). But I really don't care about his opinion of what Luke Skywalker should do or be. 

[Eggegg]

For me there some great 'ideas' mixed in with a number of elements that was so egregiously awful that they more than cancelled out any good feeling the movie had generated.

The opening half hour gave me a lot of confidence that the reviews were spot on and it was a good movie. But once Luke started milking man cows I knew something was up. 

As far as I’m concerned if a movie has enough stupid, poorly written and laid out elements then it doesn’t matter if some of it is great, it’s still a bad movie. And the bad bits in this were really bad, they were prequel bad. 

My main gripe though is that the structure of the movie is so messy. It’s something hat seems to be common in modern blockbusters now, but there is an inability to edit in a way that tells a clear, concise story. TLJ’s pacing is all over the shop, it drags in some parts, is too fast in others and the ending feels racked on. It’s half an hour too long as well. It’s like there are so many elements that the director is forced to insert to satisfy commercial demands (favourite characters, spin off movies, sequels) that it’s impossible to tell a story any more.

[Ran]

@Week

This would call into question why one should care about anyone's opinion at all. What has Rian Johnson ever done prior to helming TLJ that made him an expert on Luke Skywalker? When's the last time George Lucas wrote a single line of dialog for Luke? How about Kathleen Kennedy or, heck, J.J. Abrams?

And I agree with Relic. As I said, I preferred this film to TFA, despite flaws I find glaring. I'm not at all speaking as someone who hates the film, not by any means.

[Week]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Week

This would call into question why one should care about anyone's opinion at all. What has Rian Johnson ever done prior to helming TLJ that made him an expert on Luke Skywalker? When's the last time George Lucas wrote a single line of dialog for Luke? How about Kathleen Kennedy or, heck, J.J. Abrams?

And I agree with Relic. As I said, I preferred this film to TFA, despite flaws I find glaring. I'm not at all speaking as someone who hates the film, not by any means.

Well, Rian Johnson was the writer and the director and has success in those roles in the past. I would consider him to be more of an expert on  script writing and characterization than Hamill. I do get your point though and do agree on preferring this film to TFA (though R1 over both - I think).

[Ran]

I think Rogue One -- with _its_ flaws as well, because it's by no means perfect -- is so far my favorite of the new Star Wars films, as well. The freshness of what it tried to do, and the energy with which it was done, really took me away. Never checked my watch during the film, which is my measure for how taken I am with a film.

Gonna be honest, none of these surpass any entry in the OT (yes, even RotJ; FFS, the Ewoks were gonna eat Han!). But they're all better than the prequels, so they've got that going for them.

But to circle back to Hamill, again, he helped conceive the character. His understanding of what motivated the character, what defined him, filtered into his performance based on what was written for him and whatever discussions he had with Lucas and the writers of the other films.

(Thinking about it, here's how I would have satisfied Hamill _and_ Johnson: Luke is on the island because -- he says -- he's there to stop something terrible from happening, and that it's absolutely vital he stay there. He refuses to go out into the world because what he needs to do is too important. It has to do with that hole in the ground leading to that strange crystal/mirror. You have him and Rey having it out, and she leaves to help her friends... and in the end, her plea for help leads him to decide to end the threat down there so he can go 

HE goes down... and he discovers something about himself: that he has concocted this notion of having to stay there, solitary, as a way to avoid facing up to his guilt and his fear about Ben and the students who were killed. It's like going back into the tree in Dagobah, where he faces "Vader" and then sees his own face in the helmet. The enemy was _him_, all along -- the person who was blocking his way forward was Luke Skywalker, and that's what he feared and dreaded. Recognizing this, he goes up to the cliff, sits on the stone, and begins to meditate...

I don't know. Something like that. He's not giving up, not in a way that he understands, because the trauma is too deep. It takes Rey's innocence and fearlessness for him to recognize he needs to push on. It takes a moment of introspection for him to achieve his own balance. It all feels like it fits the themes, _and_ respects the fact that Luke would not just sit there deliberately doing nothing, waiting to die.

But that's me.)

 

[Darth Richard II]

I think Hamil obviously liked some of the stuff they did with Luke and obviously disliked some of it. Like most of the fandom. And of course you have people editing videos to emphasize their side of the argument, because 2017, i dunno. 

Oh and whoever upthreaf mentioned the ewoks eating Han, plus one! Ewoks are nasty little fuckers, and I stand by that.

[Darth Richard II]

For what it's worth:

https://screenrant.com/george-lucas-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-story/