The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread

[Ran]

4 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

See, this isn't me nagging on the OT, but people suddenly complaining about dog fighting in space and bombers in space...did you see the original film? I mean, if its always bothered you that's fine, but people act like this is the first SW film to have unrealistic space physics.

The bombers were idiotic. I was rewatching Rogue One’s space battle and they proprrly used a barrage of torpedos. The thing is that from the first,  fighters are indeed inspired by dog fighting of WWII, but capital ships (and their countermeasures) are more naval. This film emphasizes it, even, with its slow-motion chase.

I don’t know why Johnson went with the bombers, beyond not thinking it through.

[Caligula_K3]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The bombers were idiotic. I was rewatching Rogue One’s space battle and they proprrly used a barrage of torpedos. The thing is that from the first,  fighters are indeed inspired by dog fighting of WWII, but capital ships (and their countermeasures) are more naval. This film emphasizes it, even, with its slow-motion chase.

I don’t know why Johnson went with the bombers, beyond not thinking it through.

Because it looked cool? Because it was something different? I'm not sure how it's plausible to get proton torpedoes get into the central reactor of a moon sized space station, really, but these aren't the kinds of questions that are worth asking about Star Wars.

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Okay, let me throw something else out there. I was actually thinking about this while at work today....how pathetic am I? But that's how much of a fan I am:). I've been going on in the last thread about how we needed more answers for the Luke/Ren plot, that a lot of fans' frustration is wondering how Luke came to be such a different person in the beginning of the film where he is initially.

I have read in numerous articles that the Disney folks (let's not waste our breath saying Lucasfilm; they're just a part of the Mouse House now) were so blown away with TJA unreleased as it was, that Rian already has control of a future trilogy and everyone is speculating what it will be. It's just been clarified that it will not be Old Republic. Let me toss this out there. What if they knew that the Luke story would be controversial and would rise questions, so maybe they're planning to have Rian do what I am calling a "New Republic Prequel", set between the events of Eps 6 and 7? Where he explores the full Jedi Academy storyline similar to the way Lucas explored how Anakin became Vader in the prequels. They're already doing the young Han Solo right? In this fashion they can have their cake and eat it too, and keep the nostalgia card alive. I know I want answers and wouldn't mind such a concept if done right. 

 

Of course this would mean Rian would have to find someone worthy to play the younger Luke, which will not be easy since he'd have to find basically a male Daisy Ridley. Regardless of how her overall story-line pans out, she has an amazing physical resemblance to the young Mark Hamill and she just  leaps off the screen. It's a pity that Ep 9 will be her last SW film, but considering the career fates of SW actors maybe it's for the best. She's going places that's for sure. But she has laid down a tough act to follow. 

 

And regardless of how brilliant the Disney folks think TLJ is (and mostly I see what they were thinking; TLJ is an amazing  film, for all its flaws) I think they are waiting to see how the Han Solo film does at the box-office before giving any green light to a possible New Republic "Prequel" spin-off if that's what they are thinking of having Rian do. And that has me concerned. If that does become a dumpster fire, might that affect those plans? I'd think not. There's a story to start out with--the Jedi Temple--etc whereas I have no idea what a young Solo movie entails now the the EU is discarded and no possibilty of The Han Solo Trilogy being adapted. God those were good books--some of my favorite SW novels period. The whole Oliver Twist thing. 

 

It would be weird  though. I mean we got Ewan doing a great job as young Obi-wan but we never knew the young Obi-wan at all, , so he was free to interpret him as he wanted, it wasn't just an Alec Guinness homage. Whereas viewers would very much expect whoever plays Luke to be...well, Luke. And Hamill has laid down an act to follow that's for sure. 

[Darth Richard II]

Well, how do you explain the Tie Bombers in Empire then?

[Fiddler]

It's probably not cannon anymore, but I believe I read in a later book that the reason why Vader and the Empire couldn't find either Yoda or Obi Wan was due to spot of intense Dark Force.  Like the tunnel Luke went into during Empire.  This "dark spot" was able to hide the force presence of someone as strong as Yoda and obi Wan.

I've been really thinking these last few days about the Force Awakens and Last Jedi.  I'm a person that loved Force Awakens and puts it neck and neck with Empire for the best in the series.  I still bawl like a child whenever I watch it and see the look on Han's face as the lightsaber drives home.   I think the Last Jedi was pretty good also, on par with Return and New Hope and Rogue One.  Luke, Kylo and Rey stole the movie for me.  They were fantastic.

Having said that though, there is something that weighs on me a bit.  And that is, that these movies, even though I don't think they are bad, could have been so much better.  There were so many places they could have went that would have made better movies and done more justice to the beloved characters and that is what has started bothering me a little bit.

Not to mention, when I look at these two movies, they basically say that the original trilogy meant nothing.  The empire is still in power.  The dark side is still subjagating the galaxy.  There is still a supreme dark user with an aprentice.  Nothing progressed after Jedi, it all fell backwards it seems.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being maudlin, but as much as I love these last two movies, I can't help but think of how they could have been so much better.

[Darth Richard II]

@Lady Of The Crossbow Inn I was just thinking that today, that the new trilogy could be set between 6 and 7.

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well, how do you explain the Tie Bombers in Empire then?

Used primarily for planetary work, but capable of projecting mines downwards. Look at the TESB scene with them and you realize that those mines were zipping down to the surface. I’m guessing someone in production decided it’d make more sense to launch them under power rather than treat it like WWII carpet bombing.

Had the bombs at least been projected by magnetic launchers or something, it would make sense in TLJ. But no, they’re just falling as if the dreadnaught had substantial gravity.

[Darth Richard II]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Used primarily for planetary work, but capable of projecting mines downwards. Look at the TESB scene with them and you realize that those mines were zipping down to the surface. I’m guessing someone in production decided it’d make more sense to launch them under power rather than treat it like WWII carpet bombing.

Had the bombs at least been projected by magnetic launchers or something, it would make sense in TLJ. But no, they’re just falling as if the dreadnaught had substantial gravity.

I'll look for that next time I watch Empire. (Which will probably be this weekend, heh).

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Yeah Darth Richard. I was also thinking about how I might be being played. That as one of the fans who fundamentally disagreed with the notion that Luke could even contemplate for a second murdering someone in cold blood, that we'd want answers so "oooh, we need a second "prequel trilogy." And Disney was counting on this. Que another fount of $. I hate being played. I really do. 

 

Sorry. But I was just looking for a particular interview with Mark on YouTube and am running smack into the ones where Mark is clearly not happy about what they've done to Luke. Some of these are recent, heavily edited by angry fans trying to serve a purpose,  but I've seen enough from over the past yr that are genuine, where he was really subtly trying to warn us. He's always been a class act all the way and would never go off in public or be overt but his language, his facial expressions, his voice...the hints are there. It goes back to what I said yesterday about the world needing heroes, even fictional ones, the def. of a hero is someone who gives people hope and makes them happy. Someone you can hold up as an example to your children. Now Luke has been tarnished, you can intellectualie about this all you want but at  the end of the day, when your little boy sees Luke standing with an angry face and drawn saber standing over someone sleeping and turns to you and and "Was Luke gonna kill that guy, Mommy? Why?" THIS is all that Mark cares about.

 

and we're going to need another prequel  film or films to explain that. And Mark can't stand to see the fans in an uproar, it's painful for him. How cynical.

 

I think the idea all along was to do something like this to make angry fans want answers/more films/more $ for Disney playing it safe exploring lives of Lucas's  Big Three instead of totally new adventures. Nosalgia. I hate being played. 

 

EDIT: but see Iskral, this is what I mean by being played. I wanted all-new origonal stories too. I don't know where Disney got the notion that it was taking risks, that you had to "prove yourself" that new SW films were risky that's why they had to get the Big Three on-board. People came for the Phantom Menace when it had all new characters, except for young adult Obi-Wan. Child Anakin was you could argue a new character. And it made how much money? Why did Disney feel the need to physically appeal to the older fans when they knew they'd bring their kids and grandkids anyway? And if the idea all along was to cynically kill Lucas's characters off onscreen just to "take ownership." Why couldn't they have left well enough alone. 

 

Question: were Mark, Harrison and Carrie signed to their  contracts before or after Disney bought Lucasfilm? Interesting that now in addition to Marvel, Pixar, Studio Ghibli, and Lucasfilm, Disney has just bought Fox, the origional SW Studio. The circle is now complete. What's next, Disney buying WB? Are we to have one Hollywood studio now?

[Iskaral Pust]

I don’t want the next trilogy to fall between eps 6-7.  With the prequels, R1 and the next Han Solo prequel, I’m tired of prequels where we know in advance the outcome of the plot and character arc.

I’d rather see a completely new story in the SW universe and leave behind the Skywalker saga.  There is so much potential to mine.  I’d like to explore the galaxy some more. 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Used primarily for planetary work, but capable of projecting mines downwards. Look at the TESB scene with them and you realize that those mines were zipping down to the surface. I’m guessing someone in production decided it’d make more sense to launch them under power rather than treat it like WWII carpet bombing.

Had the bombs at least been projected by magnetic launchers or something, it would make sense in TLJ. But no, they’re just falling as if the dreadnaught had substantial gravity.

Why the bombs "dropping" has angered so many fans (when there are WAY more important things this film got wrong) baffles me. When I saw it in the theater I immediately though magnets. And yep, sho nuff, 'tis magnets.

I quote from the official Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary:

Quote

Bombs don't technically "drop" in microgravity, but are impelled form their rack by sequenced electromagnetic plates in their clips. The bombs are then drawn magnetically to their unfortunate targets.

The page with this info is even on Amazon as one of the book's free preview pages. It's almost as if they knew fanboys would be ranting about this.

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I don’t want the next trilogy to fall between eps 6-7.  With the prequels, R1 and the next Han Solo prequel, I’m tired of prequels where we know in advance the outcome of the plot and character arc.

I’d rather see a completely new story in the SW universe and leave behind the Skywalker saga.  There is so much potential to mine.  I’d like to explore the galaxy some more. 

I have no idea of how the old lore is. But I would like to see the beguining of the jedi and sith.

Like have people discovering the force, start practicing and then divide themselves over the light and dark side and start fighting for the control of the galaxy. And with each movie we could see people doing new things with the force...

[Ran]

Pretty weird how the bombs spread just like they were  freefalling through atmosphere...  These guides are always trying to fix filmmaker screw ups, with varied levels of success. This one, not so much.

Johnson just liked the visual. If they’d been missile boats, would have fit within the Star Wars universe much better.

 

[Darth Richard II]

One of the thing that irks me at the moment is the people who are both mad about Luke going to kill Ben and mad that the EU is gone, because, man, Luke does far worse shit in during Dark Empire.

I'm honestly still not sure how I feel about that part.

@Lady Of The Crossbow Inn I don't think Disney ever owned Ghibli, just he distribution rights in America, and they don;t even have those now, they went over to GK Kids.

 

Edit: I don't think Haml is upset as some fans want nor as accepting of it as other fans do.

Or, and from what I understand, Hamil was actually the last to sign on. He didn't really want to do it and he figured he'd wait til Ford turned it down, then when he signed up when Ford did. That's what he said in a recent interview anyway, don't know how tongue in cheek he was being.

[Darth Richard II]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Pretty weird how the bombs spread just like they were  freefalling through atmosphere...  These guides are always trying to fix filmmaker screw ups, with varied levels of success. This one, not so much.

Johnson just liked the visual. If they’d been missile boats, would have fit within the Star Wars universe much better.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the visual dictionary that i think could have just been in TLJ in one line, that would have clarified a lot of things.

Ever since the opening of Ep 3 though, I;ve always just assumed Star Wars space has gravity.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I don’t want the next trilogy to fall between eps 6-7.  With the prequels, R1 and the next Han Solo prequel, I’m tired of prequels where we know in advance the outcome of the plot and character arc.

I’d rather see a completely new story in the SW universe and leave behind the Skywalker saga.  There is so much potential to mine.  I’d like to explore the galaxy some more. 

Per Rian Johnson this was precisely the pitch he sold. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

I wonder if they've ever had to yell cut during a duel scene because one of the actors was making lightsaber noises. 

 

 

Ewan McGregor in Phantom Menace.  

[Derfel Cadarn]

3 hours ago, Fiddler said:

It's probably not cannon anymore, but I believe I read in a later book that the reason why Vader and the Empire couldn't find either Yoda or Obi Wan was due to spot of intense Dark Force.  Like the tunnel Luke went into during Empire.  This "dark spot" was able to hide the force presence of someone as strong as Yoda and obi Wan.

I've been really thinking these last few days about the Force Awakens and Last Jedi.  I'm a person that loved Force Awakens and puts it neck and neck with Empire for the best in the series.  I still bawl like a child whenever I watch it and see the look on Han's face as the lightsaber drives home.   I think the Last Jedi was pretty good also, on par with Return and New Hope and Rogue One.  Luke, Kylo and Rey stole the movie for me.  They were fantastic.

Having said that though, there is something that weighs on me a bit.  And that is, that these movies, even though I don't think they are bad, could have been so much better.  There were so many places they could have went that would have made better movies and done more justice to the beloved characters and that is what has started bothering me a little bit.

Not to mention, when I look at these two movies, they basically say that the original trilogy meant nothing.  The empire is still in power.  The dark side is still subjagating the galaxy.  There is still a supreme dark user with an aprentice.  Nothing progressed after Jedi, it all fell backwards it seems.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being maudlin, but as much as I love these last two movies, I can't help but think of how they could have been so much better.

To be fair they had 20 years or so of peace.  The First Order spent most of the thirty years preparing to return, and it didnt move directly on the republic until starkiller base wiped out the fleet and senate

[mormont]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

What was that earlier about arguments couched in emotional language? Hmm...

Hey, nothing wrong with emotional language when we're discussing a scene that's there for emotional reasons. It doesn't work so well when you're trying to make out your argument is logical. 

12 hours ago, aceluby said:

Can I take that bet?  Even my mom wondered who Rey's parents were going to be coming out of the theater.  It was literally the biggest open question left by the film.  I'm seriously wondering how you missed that.

No, as Kal points out, the biggest open question left by the film - by a very long chalk - is 'what happened at the Jedi Academy to turn Ben Solo into Kylo Ren, and to drive Luke into exile?'

Rey's parents are an open question, for sure, but that's not the same as a mystery. The answer we get in TLJ makes that distinction clear, I think. As someone else pointed out, none of the theories treating it as a 'mystery' in that sense had a solution that ever felt satisfactory. 

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

Because Rey was looking at a starship launching off the surface and we saw this in a flashback. This is actually the biggest inconsistency with the "they're nobody" story. Ren said they died on Jakku but Rey saw them blasting off in a spacecraft. She was about 5, which is young but not dumb enough not to have seen them get in a spaceship.

Well... she saw a spacecraft launching, yeah. It does not follow that she saw her parents blasting off in a spacecraft, or that she saw them get into it.  

[Eggegg]

5 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

Sorry. But I was just looking for a particular interview with Mark on YouTube and am running smack into the ones where Mark is clearly not happy about what they've done to Luke. Some of these are recent, heavily edited by angry fans trying to serve a purpose,  but I've seen enough from over the past yr that are genuine, where he was really subtly trying to warn us. He's always been a class act all the way and would never go off in public or be overt but his language, his facial expressions, his voice...the hints are there. It goes back to what I said yesterday about the world needing heroes, even fictional ones, the def. of a hero is someone who gives people hope and makes them happy. Someone you can hold up as an example to your children. Now Luke has been tarnished, you can intellectualie about this all you want but at  the end of the day, when your little boy sees Luke standing with an angry face and drawn saber standing over someone sleeping and turns to you and and "Was Luke gonna kill that guy, Mommy? Why?" THIS is all that Mark cares about.

Do people genuinely have a problem with Luke almost killing Ren? I know I don't. To me, Luke was always someone struggling to control his dark side, his anger, and this just seemed like an extension of that. He also says it was a momentary weakness and he brought it under control. 

I don't want to see Luke as some supremely good superhero with no flaws, and if anything the new trilogy are closer to doing that to their OT characters, with the divine flying Leia and Force projection Luke. I really liked in TFA that Han and Leia didn't stay together and that Han had gone back to his smuggling days, because he's not really a hero either.