The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

[DMC]

48 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Right - and that is exactly what I'm talking about. Lucas had fuckall, and his 'outline' had Vader as Luke's extra special enemy, Leia falling for Luke, Han out of the picture entirely and all sorts of bullshit about force crystals and whatnot. 

...So is this concession by omission?  You don't seem to be arguing against the haphazard way in which the trilogy seems to be managed right now, but rather emphasizing that Lucas too had "fuckall" for planning.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

...So is this concession by omission?  You don't seem to be arguing against the haphazard way in which the trilogy seems to be managed right now, but rather emphasizing that Lucas too had "fuckall" for planning.

Oh, yes. I'm absolutely saying that the new trilogy was clearly not planned, and JJ Abrams outright lied about the outline, or at least didn't have enough oversight to enforce anything. 

I am arguing that that implies that the story is going to be bad or somehow not enjoyable, or that it is necessarily a problem. I am 100% sure that Abrams did not think the answer to Rey's parentage was 'random drunk people', even though that's an incredibly good answer to actually give.

[Darth Richard II]

Heh, I like that sequence a lot, mainly from a musical perspective, but I don't think it's better then most of TLJ.

Some clones did refuse order 66 but they go rogue before ep 3.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh and there is some super consulted EU answer about why the clones could take down Jedi. Something about since they don't know they are going to do it too they do the Jedi can't sense it's about to happen.

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh and there is some super consulted EU answer about why the clones could take down Jedi. Something about since they don't know they are going to do it too they do the Jedi can't sense it's about to happen.

No, I know that there are justifications as to why it happened (off screen, like so many other things). But from a thematic and visual element the Jedi die badly and lamely. The younglings fighting off random troopers put up more of a dramatic fight. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

No, I know that there are justifications as to why it happened (off screen, like so many other things). But from a thematic and visual element the Jedi die badly and lamely. The younglings fighting off random troopers put up more of a dramatic fight. 

Oh shit, that's right. If Jimmi Smitts hadn't been so slow on the uptake that kid could've made it!

[Nictarion]

24 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No, I know that there are justifications as to why it happened (off screen, like so many other things). But from a thematic and visual element the Jedi die badly and lamely. The younglings fighting off random troopers put up more of a dramatic fight. 

Except Yoda ofc. He wasn’t having that shit. 

[Rubicante]

9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Wow. Okay.

So it was better than the Luke/Ren showdown where Luke brushes off thousands of blaster shots from AT-ATs off his shoulder? It's better than the lightspeed ram? Better than the Rey/Ren guard fight? Huh. I hated that sequence - it made the Jedi look completely idiotic, dying to a few stormtroopers in fairly anticlimactic fashion. A couple of fighters shoot down a Jedi Master? A few troopers are able to actually hit, much less kill, another master? It's just pathetic how fast the Jedi die. 

Well, we'll never agree on order 66 sequence.  It worked for me, but doesn't for other people.

They were easily killed because they were all in the middle of battles and didn't expect their own troops to turn on them.  However, I do think it was pathetic how quickly Palpatine kills the other three Jedi Mace Windu brings along with him to arrest Palpatine.  They knew it was coming.

As for The Last Jedi, those scenes were all fine, but...

1. Luke/Ren Showdown:  Luke technically doesn't brush off the blaster fire.  He's not physically there.  Also, with Luke brushing his shoulder off after, it felt again like Marvel universe humor was being forced into a Star Wars movie.  It takes away from the seriousness of what Luke just did (nowhere near as bad as the Hux prank call or Luke tossing the lightsaber, but still not good).  And I wish Luke's sacrifice was exclusively responsible for allowing the Resistance to escape.  His showdown with Ren really only buys time.  Rey is the one who has to somehow find the secret cave exit and lift rocks.

2. Lightspeed Ram: As many people pointed out, this completely changes the dynamics of space battles.  The resistance ship should have just hit Snoke's ship and blown up.  Otherwise, why haven't ships been doing this in the past?  One of those bombers at the start of the movie could have light speed rammed into a Dreadnought to take it out.  In fact, the resistance could have won that battle if they had all of their bombers light speed ram into every star destroyer.

3. Rey/Ren guard fight: I disliked the cheesy red background in Snoke's throne room.  It annoyed me that we got absolutely no information on who Snoke is.  I didn't mind how Snoke died (like with the Order 66 sequence, Snoke/The Jedi did not anticipate this).  The fighting was okay, but once again a reminder of how I hate fighting scenes between actors in movies these days.  Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut and 2 seconds of fighting has passed (an exaggeration, but I wish I could see a fight sequence where I could follow what is going on for more than a second before there is a cut to a different camera angle).  And despite Kylo's whole "let the past die" thing, he just continues to lead the First Order against the Resistance.  That's just doing more of the old.

9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Heh, I like that sequence a lot, mainly from a musical perspective, but I don't think it's better then most of TLJ.

Some clones did refuse order 66 but they go rogue before ep 3.

Yes, the music in the order 66 sequence was really, really good.  I think that is something missing from the new trilogy.  None of the music stands out to me, nor does it do a good job of contributing to the atmosphere of a particular scene. 

 

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Yes, the music in the order 66 sequence was really, really good.  I think that is something missing from the new trilogy.  None of the music stands out to me, nor does it do a good job of contributing to the atmosphere of a particular scene. 

The modified imperial march that plays when Luke walks out to confront Kylo contributes very well to the atmosphere of that scene. The March of the Resistance song contributes very well to every scene where the Resistance people are in attack mode, and Rey's theme is pretty good, and contributed quite well to the scene that introduces the character? Imo, of course. I guess none of these work for you.

[polishgenius]

I'm not understanding the sudden conviction from some people that before this film Star Wars was a solemn, joke-free procession of seriousness. It's not 'Marvel humour', whatever that means, being forced in, it's just humour. If it doesn't work for you, that's a completely fair complaint, but it's not a new innovation to the franchise being enforced by the Disney overlords.

[Guy Kilmore]

4 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm not understanding the sudden conviction from some people that before this film Star Wars was a solemn, joke-free procession of seriousness. It's not 'Marvel humour', whatever that means, being forced in, it's just humour. If it doesn't work for you, that's a completely fair complaint, but it's not a new innovation to the franchise being enforced by the Disney overlords.

I just finished a rewatch of the Empire Strikes Back and we have R2 wrestling with Yoda over a laser pointer.  The humor has always been there.

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm not understanding the sudden conviction from some people that before this film Star Wars was a solemn, joke-free procession of seriousness. It's not 'Marvel humour', whatever that means, being forced in, it's just humour. If it doesn't work for you, that's a completely fair complaint, but it's not a new innovation to the franchise being enforced by the Disney overlords.

I think the difference is that the humour in the OT was usually very consistent with the characters and the overall tone. Yoda was actually very funny, but it was part of his character to appear to be a bumbling old fool. Han was a funny character due to his abrasive wit and sly takedowns of people around him, but it was also a signal as to his character. 

Luke in the OT is mostly a total straight man, and that was consistent throughout. Suddenly now he's throwing lightsabers off of cliffs, making winks to camera whilst drinking green milk and acting like he's Neo in the Matrix. 

Humour is totally fine, I like humour, but the reason its described as forced is because its not consistent with the tone of the previous movies or the characters themselves.

[Guy Kilmore]

4 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think the difference is that the humour in the OT was usually very consistent with the characters and the overall tone. Yoda was actually very funny, but it was part of his character to appear to be a bumbling old fool. Han was a funny character due to his abrasive wit and sly takedowns of people around him, but it was also a signal as to his character. 

Luke in the OT is mostly a total straight man, and that was consistent throughout. Suddenly now he's throwing lightsabers off of cliffs, making winks to camera whilst drinking green milk and acting like he's Neo in the Matrix. 

Humour is totally fine, I like humour, but the reason its described as forced is because its not consistent with the tone of the previous movies or the characters themselves.

And, Luke's humor in the new movies is a signal to him and who he is in the new movie.  You know, like life experiences change people as they get older and stuff....

And Luke in the OT always wanted to be the Hero that rescued the day and all that stuff, like the whole short for the storm trooper scene.  In the new Trilogy he is on the OTHERSIDE of that, he is the HERO and he failed.  So for him to be the same Luke as in the old trilogy would ring false.

[Week]

12 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Humour is totally fine, I like humour, but the reason its described as forced is because its not consistent with the tone of the previous movies or the characters themselves.

I'd agree here -- if you specify that previous movies are the OT pre-Special Edition (/thinks of the Special Edition Jabba's Palace song ... /shudders). So, versions that are no longer readily available thanks to Lucas (unless that changed...).

[Eggegg]

2 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

And, Luke's humor in the new movies is a signal to him and who he is in the new movie.  You know, like life experiences change people as they get older and stuff....

And Luke in the OT always wanted to be the Hero that rescued the day and all that stuff, like the whole short for the storm trooper scene.  In the new Trilogy he is on the OTHERSIDE of that, he is the HERO and he failed.  So for him to be the same Luke as in the old trilogy would ring false.

Sorry I’m not buying that at all. Character growth isn’t an excuse to change the entire nature of someone, for instance to make a humourless straight man into a hilarious comedy genius. 

None of the humour in the movie worked because none of it came from authentic character traits. 

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

I'd agree here -- if you specify that previous movies are the OT pre-Special Edition (/thinks of the Special Edition Jabba's Palace song ... /shudders). So, versions that are no longer readily available thanks to Lucas (unless that changed...).

Ugh, please don’t remind me of that song 

[Guy Kilmore]

32 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Sorry I’m not buying that at all. Character growth isn’t an excuse to change the entire nature of someone, for instance to make a humourless straight man into a hilarious comedy genius. 

None of the humour in the movie worked because none of it came from authentic character traits. 

When your nature is based upon naivete, um, yeah, it does change.  And he wasn't humourless straight man in the OT, just someone without a real clue and earnest in everything he did.  Those traits are certainly something that can get tempered with age.  How many Naive and Earnest old people do you know?  While possible, not exactly a common trait.  And his entire nature didn't change, I feel like we watched different movies, in regards to the OT and the NT.

Your last sentence makes no sense.  They didn't have authentic character traits?  I mean, you might not like what Luke became, but he was still someone with a recognizable human personality.  

[Jace, Extat]

Anyone who thinks that Kylo Ren wouldn't eat Anakin Skywalker's lunch money (yeah, the money) in a fight is fucking delusional.

That motherfucker would be force choking his own self just to get off while he sliced that weak ass Jedi/Sith into three redundant pieces.

[Corvinus85]

Just now, Pony Queen Jace said:

Anyone who thinks that Kylo Ren wouldn't eat Anakin Skywalker's lunch money (yeah, the money) in a fight is fucking delusional.

That motherfucker would be force choking his own self just to get off while he sliced that weak ass Jedi/Sith into three redundant pieces.

This came about totally randomly.

Anakin would beat Kylo Ren in a duel. Kylo Ren would (possibly) beat Vader in a duel. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

This came about totally randomly.

Anakin would beat Kylo Ren in a duel. Kylo Ren would (possibly) beat Vader in a duel. 

Are you kidding me? That wannabe would be flippin around waving his glow sword and Kylo Ren would mind rape him from across the room. If Anakin ever wondered what way he'd die, Kylo Ren would have chosen one.