NFL 2018 Draft: On The One Hand...

[Maithanet]

3 hours ago, sperry said:

Wentz will have to improve his accuracy dramatically for that to be the case. He has time to do so, but it's not a given. His deficiencies are being masked by the absurd talent he is surrounded by.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/4/11/17224760/josh-allen-cleveland-browns-analytics-nfl-draft

And yet, this article indicates that Allen may be the favorite for #1 overall.  The article doesn't have anything solid, it's just reporting on the rumors.

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The Allen buzz could all be a lie. After all, everything you hear during the month of April relating to the draft is usually false and purposely false to boot. But the smoke here feels legit, and the Browns have nothing to lie about, really. They're two weeks away. They're not trading the No. 1 pick and they're not worried about another quarterback falling to No. 4 (we don't think). 

It is right to say that the Browns don't really have anything to gain by keeping the #1 pick a secret.  If anything, they could give their future franchise guy a small boost that they have confidence in him. 

Whoever the Browns pick is going to have a ton of pressure on him to FINALLY pull the Browns out of their misery.  IF the #1 pick is a bust, it will set the franchise back in a meaningful way.  Browns fans have shown astonishing patience, but I have no doubt that some portion of them will say "they traded away Wentz and Watson so they could draft THIS BUM?!"  Doubly so if Rosen/Mayfield/Jackson are lighting it up.  All NFL fans have a breaking point - it's not crazy to think that some portion of the fanbase could be lost if this guy fails. 

That fact to me makes picking Allen even crazier.  Allen is a high risk high reward pick.  He might turn those incredible physical tools into the complete package and in a couple years be the next John Elway.  But he didn't play like John Elway in college, he looks a lot more like John Skelton.  There are a few guys who were lackluster in college but put it together as pros.  But not many, and NONE of them were taken #1 overall.  The only quarterback that I can think of like that is Matt Hasslebeck (college stats) and he was taken in the 6th round.  If you took Allen in the 6th (or hell, even the 3rd) round, that would be fine.  But taking him #1 overall is crazy. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

It is right to say that the Browns don't really have anything to gain by keeping the #1 pick a secret.  If anything, they could give their future franchise guy a small boost that they have confidence in him. 

Literally the only upside is making it harder for the Giants to trade out on draft day, but I see no reason why they’d do that. Personally I would announce who you’re taking and have the kid meet his future teammates.

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Whoever the Browns pick is going to have a ton of pressure on him to FINALLY pull the Browns out of their misery.  IF the #1 pick is a bust, it will set the franchise back in a meaningful way.  

They’re 1-31 over the last two seasons, and their last QB to win two games was Johnny Freaking Football. And that was close to 900 days ago. How can it get any worse?   

[grozeng]

Dez Bryant has been cut.  The Jets need a 20th WR on their roster.  Perfect Match.

[James Arryn]

Seahawks have ‘suspended’ Kaepernick work-out when he would not give assurances that he wouldn’t kneel for anthem. Reid has said he was told he needed to give such assurances before signing. The NFL appears to be counting on it’s massive OBN power in the upcoming case.

[Maithanet]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They’re 1-31 over the last two seasons, and their last QB to win two games was Johnny Freaking Football. And that was close to 900 days ago. How can it get any worse?   

The Browns have been sold on The Process - the idea they need to get worse in the short term to be better in the long term.  Most fans can accept that and there's even reason to think it might be working - they have a ton of young talent and they'll acquire a lot more this draft.  But if they still can't find a reliable qb, all that talent might be wasted.  Then all the misery the fanbase has had to put up with the past two years will be for nothing.  I expect a lot of people would be fed up at that point.   

[dbunting]

Bryant getting cut has been a pretty clear and out in the open thing all off season. I just hope and beg of them not to take a WR in the first round. Stick with defense unless a high level OL drops unexpectedly. WR in rd 1 are now similar to how RB's were, just not worth it especially since there are no Calvin Johnsons in this draft.

[Rhom]

11 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Seahawks have ‘suspended’ Kaepernick work-out when he would not give assurances that he wouldn’t kneel for anthem. Reid has said he was told he needed to give such assurances before signing. The NFL appears to be counting on it’s massive OBN power in the upcoming case.

It’s worse than that... the Seachickens have signed someone called Stephen Morris instead of working out Kaepernick.

But hey... Niners can’t cut Reuben Foster because someone else would snatch him up in a heartbeat.

[Jace, Extat]

23 minutes ago, Rhom said:

It’s worse than that... the Seachickens have signed someone called Stephen Morris instead of working out Kaepernick.

But hey... Niners can’t cut Reuben Foster because someone else would snatch him up in a heartbeat.

Hey! They just signed Morris until they could get Kaep's position nailed down.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

The Browns have been sold on The Process - the idea they need to get worse in the short term to be better in the long term.  Most fans can accept that and there's even reason to think it might be working - they have a ton of young talent and they'll acquire a lot more this draft.  But if they still can't find a reliable qb, all that talent might be wasted.  Then all the misery the fanbase has had to put up with the past two years will be for nothing.  I expect a lot of people would be fed up at that point.   

But how long has that been the case? They’re always rebuilding. It’s why you hear players refer to Cleveland as their second college stint, “four years and dip.” I don’t think the fans have big expectations at this point.

Also, is “the process” a thing in football? I know it is in baseball and basketball, but with football all I ever hear people say is that they’d tank for a great QB prospect.

Anyways, I’d like @briantw's take on this.

 

[Prince of the North]

19 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Were those designed runs or just scrambles from a broken pocket? 

I don't really know for sure.  I was just looking at Wentz's rush attempts over his last two years in college and first two years in the NFL.  Just my impression is that Wentz was pretty much a monster athlete at the QB position in D I-AA so, if he didn't see something in the passing game pretty quickly, he could always just pull it down and make good things happen on the ground.  My impression is that the Bison O-line was always pretty good for Wentz so I don't think he was running for his life all that much.  I think it was more of a "read and run" strategy, if that makes sense.

Also, Wentz ran a pro-style offense at NDSU.  So, another question for the thread, what are people's impression about whether that actually helps QBs coming into the NFL start off better or be "ready" sooner, etc.?  I would think it would help...but how much?    

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

It’s worse than that... the Seachickens have signed someone called Stephen Morris instead of working out Kaepernick.

But hey... Niners can’t cut Reuben Foster because someone else would snatch him up in a heartbeat.

With regards to his lawsuit, does the motivation for being blackballed matter? Because if it does, this should help him a lot.

[Jace, Extat]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But how long has that been the case? They’re always rebuilding. It’s why you hear players refer to Cleveland as their second college stint, “four years and dip.” I don’t think the fans have big expectations at this point.

Also, is “the process” a thing in football? I know it is in baseball and basketball, but with football all I ever hear people say is that they’d tank for a great QB prospect.

Anyways, I’d like @briantw's take on this.

 

"The Process" comes from SHS and has been disseminated to the followers. Of whom something tells me that ol' Jimmy is eagerly taking notes as his brother blatantly re-purposes tax money to sell more guzzoline.

[briantw]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But how long has that been the case? They’re always rebuilding. It’s why you hear players refer to Cleveland as their second college stint, “four years and dip.” I don’t think the fans have big expectations at this point.

Also, is “the process” a thing in football? I know it is in baseball and basketball, but with football all I ever hear people say is that they’d tank for a great QB prospect.

Anyways, I’d like @briantw's take on this.

If the Browns were sold on "the Process," they wouldn't have fired their GM in favor of the old school coach who went 1-31.  I think the team was originally sold on a few seasons of losing to stockpile assets and talent, and it was working.  However, Hue Jackson was such a bad coach that he managed to get worse in year two despite a hell of a lot more talent on the team, and then he somehow managed to convince the ownership that it wasn't his fault even though he's clearly a fucking dolt.

The thing that has been holding the Browns back, as you said, is the constant rebuilding.  And it comes largely down to the way they have basically fired their front office every two years, which has never allowed anyone to actually build a foundation.  Guys keep getting fired halfway into the rebuild, and then inevitably the new front office comes in, jettisons the guys they don't like, brings in new guys they do, and the whole thing starts over again.  You just can't build anything if you only get two years, especially when the next guy comes in and tears it all down and tries to rebuild again his way.

Now, granted, they've also failed by bungling a ton of drafts (the last two years were pretty good, making it all the more baffling why they'd fire that particular GM when he had already done better than basically any since the team returned to Cleveland).  But I think the main problem is the constant front office overhaul.  This always leads to new coaches and new systems, which necessitates different players because the Browns can never seem to hire a fucking coach who adjusts system to personnel instead of forcing personnel to adapt to system.  This leads to roster turnover, which means getting rid of the few guys the previous regime drafted that actually panned out.  And on and on it has went for twenty goddamn years.

You also just can't sell me on keeping Hue Jackson after he went 1-31.  I can forgive 1-15 in year one, because Sashi inherited an absolutely godawful NFL team, and a few of their good players wanted out because of how the previous regime had treated them, or because they just wanted to go somewhere else and were using the Browns as leverage to make more money.  However, I can't forgive the team actually getting worse in year two despite a significant influx of talent and a fairly strong draft.  They should have easily won three to four games last year, and were competitive in what felt like more games than they weren't.  When you get blown out all the time, it usually comes down to talent.  That was the Browns two years ago.  When you lose a lot of close games, it usually comes down to coaching.  That was the Browns last year.  And yet they fire the GM and keep the shit coach who doesn't appear to know his ass from a hole in the ground, and perhaps more importantly is constantly throwing everyone else under the bus to cover for his own ineptitude.  I can't deal with a coach who never accepts responsibility for himself, and Hue Jackson is a man who has never accepted even a lick of accountability for his poor coaching.  It was everyone's fault except his, and I honestly think there were times last year when he was intentionally throwing games to try to get his GM fired because they disagreed about, as you've said, "the Process."

tl;dr If the Browns ever want to become even a decent team, they're going to need to keep a front office around for more than two years.  Because the constant turnover has just fucked the team over and over again.  Many teams have bad front offices that still manage to string together good seasons, and I have no doubt that, had the Browns kept a few of their previous regimes, they probably would have ended up a  halfway decent team just by sheer luck.  But you can't keep tearing everything down to the studs and expect to finish building anything.

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, briantw said:

If the Browns were sold on "the Process," they wouldn't have fired their GM in favor of the old school coach who went 1-31.  I think the team was originally sold on a few seasons of losing to stockpile assets and talent, and it was working.  However, Hue Jackson was such a bad coach that he managed to get worse in year two despite a hell of a lot more talent on the team, and then he somehow managed to convince the ownership that it wasn't his fault even though he's clearly a fucking dolt.

The thing that has been holding the Browns back, as you said, is the constant rebuilding.  And it comes largely down to the way they have basically fired their front office every two years, which has never allowed anyone to actually build a foundation.  Guys keep getting fired halfway into the rebuild, and then inevitably the new front office comes in, jettisons the guys they don't like, brings in new guys they do, and the whole thing starts over again.  You just can't build anything if you only get two years, especially when the next guy comes in and tears it all down and tries to rebuild again his way.

Now, granted, they've also failed by bungling a ton of drafts (the last two years were pretty good, making it all the more baffling why they'd fire that particular GM when he had already done better than basically any since the team returned to Cleveland).  But I think the main problem is the constant front office overhaul.  This always leads to new coaches and new systems, which necessitates different players because the Browns can never seem to hire a fucking coach who adjusts system to personnel instead of forcing personnel to adapt to system.  This leads to roster turnover, which means getting rid of the few guys the previous regime drafted that actually panned out.  And on and on it has went for twenty goddamn years.

You also just can't sell me on keeping Hue Jackson after he went 1-31.  I can forgive 1-15 in year one, because Sashi inherited an absolutely godawful NFL team, and a few of their good players wanted out because of how the previous regime had treated them, or because they just wanted to go somewhere else and were using the Browns as leverage to make more money.  However, I can't forgive the team actually getting worse in year two despite a significant influx of talent and a fairly strong draft.  They should have easily won three to four games last year, and were competitive in what felt like more games than they weren't.  When you get blown out all the time, it usually comes down to talent.  That was the Browns two years ago.  When you lose a lot of close games, it usually comes down to coaching.  That was the Browns last year.  And yet they fire the GM and keep the shit coach who doesn't appear to know his ass from a hole in the ground, and perhaps more importantly is constantly throwing everyone else under the bus to cover for his own ineptitude.  I can't deal with a coach who never accepts responsibility for himself, and Hue Jackson is a man who has never accepted even a lick of accountability for his poor coaching.  It was everyone's fault except his, and I honestly think there were times last year when he was intentionally throwing games to try to get his GM fired because they disagreed about, as you've said, "the Process."

tl;dr If the Browns ever want to become even a decent team, they're going to need to keep a front office around for more than two years.  Because the constant turnover has just fucked the team over and over again.  Many teams have bad front offices that still manage to string together good seasons, and I have no doubt that, had the Browns kept a few of their previous regimes, they probably would have ended up a  halfway decent team just by sheer luck.  But you can't keep tearing everything down to the studs and expect to finish building anything.

You've put me in a difficult position sir.

On the one hand, (eh, eh? ) I love watching the Browns be awful.

On the other hand. Over the past couple of years you've become more and more active in the thread (or I just notice you more) and I like ya.

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

It’s worse than that... the Seachickens have signed someone called Stephen Morris instead of working out Kaepernick.

But hey... Niners can’t cut Reuben Foster because someone else would snatch him up in a heartbeat.

Oh fuck it. I don't usually go for the insult-based-on-team-name thing, but they have fucking earned the Seachicken moniker.

Hrm, is Tuna Cans too involved a nickname for them? You know, Chicken of the Sea? Too Parcells adjacent?

[briantw]

5 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

You've put me in a difficult position sir.

On the one hand, (eh, eh? ) I love watching the Browns be awful.

On the other hand. Over the past couple of years you've become more and more active in the thread (or I just notice you more) and I like ya.

Well thanks.  I enjoy your incoherent rantings as well.

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, briantw said:

Well thanks.  I enjoy your incoherent rantings as well.

[Maithanet]

54 minutes ago, briantw said:

You also just can't sell me on keeping Hue Jackson after he went 1-31.  I can forgive 1-15 in year one, because Sashi inherited an absolutely godawful NFL team, and a few of their good players wanted out because of how the previous regime had treated them, or because they just wanted to go somewhere else and were using the Browns as leverage to make more money.  However, I can't forgive the team actually getting worse in year two despite a significant influx of talent and a fairly strong draft.  They should have easily won three to four games last year, and were competitive in what felt like more games than they weren't.  When you get blown out all the time, it usually comes down to talent.  That was the Browns two years ago.  When you lose a lot of close games, it usually comes down to coaching.  That was the Browns last year.  And yet they fire the GM and keep the shit coach who doesn't appear to know his ass from a hole in the ground, and perhaps more importantly is constantly throwing everyone else under the bus to cover for his own ineptitude.  I can't deal with a coach who never accepts responsibility for himself, and Hue Jackson is a man who has never accepted even a lick of accountability for his poor coaching.  It was everyone's fault except his, and I honestly think there were times last year when he was intentionally throwing games to try to get his GM fired because they disagreed about, as you've said, "the Process."

Firing the GM when it seems like the problem wasn't talent but execution does seem like a really weird move. 

What do you think of my theorizing about a portion of the Browns fanbase being ready to abandon the team if this current rebuild (led by whoever they pick #1 overall this year) goes south.  Obviously I'm not talking about the entire fanbase or even the majority, but I wonder if there's a reasonable sized group that might jump ship. 

I ask because I definitely have seen that in Washington.  Here on my board by myself and Jaime L. have taken a step back from the Redskins, and several of my friends that were pretty hardcore Redskins fans 5-10 years ago have walked away for various reasons.  And it isn't just a matter of losing, it's the sustained organizational incompetence and arrogance towards the fanbase that turns people off.  I'm impressed that Browns fans have hung on as long as they have.  

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

Firing the GM when it seems like the problem wasn't talent but execution does seem like a really weird move. 

What do you think of my theorizing about a portion of the Browns fanbase being ready to abandon the team if this current rebuild (led by whoever they pick #1 overall this year) goes south.  Obviously I'm not talking about the entire fanbase or even the majority, but I wonder if there's a reasonable sized group that might jump ship. 

I was already on the fence after they fired Sashi but kept Hue Jackson.  If they pick Josh Allen number one, I just don't know if I can do it any more.  

I also haven't lived in Ohio for almost seven years now, so I think I could justifiably transition to a Panthers allegiance and not seem like a dick for it if needed.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

I was already on the fence after they fired Sashi but kept Hue Jackson.  If they pick Josh Allen number one, I just don't know if I can do it any more.  

Ok, that makes it clear. It's not fun anymore if fans are giving up out of sustained emotional trauma. I hope they get the right guy.