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AncalagonTheBlack

Football: Mo Please!

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25 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It really isn't.

You said yourself that there are a limited number of potential buyers. Two, in fact. Neither of those teams is particularly strongly motivated to buy Pogba right at the moment. That's a classic example of a buyer's market: a limited number of buyers who are not well motivated to spend. If United want to sell, they'll have a hard time driving a good bargain.

25 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Well 3-4 years would be a a period of stability especially if he builds a strong squad which he has done.

But we were discussing whether he'd be sacked next season, which will be his third year. You think he won't, unless he melts down, and cited the need for 'a period of stability'. If you're now saying 3 years is long enough to qualify as 'a period of stability', that argument falls down, surely?

Mind you, I'm not sure what even qualifies as 'stability' in modern managerial terms. The average is now something like two and a half years, which isn't really long enough to count IMO.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

You said yourself that there are a limited number of potential buyers. Two, in fact. Neither of those teams is particularly strongly motivated to buy Pogba right at the moment. That's a classic example of a buyer's market: a limited number of buyers who are not well motivated to spend. If United want to sell, they'll have a hard time driving a good bargain.

That's why I also mentioned "in the unlikely event that United are prepared to sell" and "Pogba is a valuable asset both on and off the pitch". There is no evidence to suggest that United are prepared to sell and Pogba is not even 2 years into a 5 year contract plus an option the extend for a further year. We certainly will not be selling Pogba for less than what we paid especially in this post Neymar-Mbappe-Coutinho-Dembele transfer market. 

 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

But we were discussing whether he'd be sacked next season, which will be his third year. You think he won't, unless he melts down, and cited the need for 'a period of stability'. If you're now saying 3 years is long enough to qualify as 'a period of stability', that argument falls down, surely?

Mind you, I'm not sure what even qualifies as 'stability' in modern managerial terms. The average is now something like two and a half years, which isn't really long enough to count IMO.

I'd say that 3 years or more is managerial stability in the modern game especially at the big/wealthy clubs. 

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1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

That's why I also mentioned "in the unlikely event that United are prepared to sell" and "Pogba is a valuable asset both on and off the pitch".

Any player is only as valuable as the money other clubs are prepared to pay. And if we're discussing the market, it's taking as read that United are prepared to sell. Otherwise, there surely is no market!

So, I think we agree that if United don't want to sell, they're not going to. But if they do, yeah, I think it would be very difficult to show a profit.

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

I'd say that 3 years or more is managerial stability in the modern game especially at the big/wealthy clubs. 

Yeah, but what then does 'stability' mean in that context?

The first year is building a team. The second is usually going all-out to win something. The third has a manager on the way out. None of these are really 'stability' in my book.

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15 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Arsenal are a club that talk a lot about their ‘philosophy’. Gazidis went on about it today, stating how Wenger won with ‘perfection’. He also said he will look for a manager ‘who will continue to play exciting, progressive football.’ 

This is what makes me doubt Allegri as a potential Arsenal manager. His Juventus team are extremely effective, but it would be a stretch to say they play the same brand of football Wenger’s Arsenal teams of old played, for example.

This is actually what makes me think Allegri would be a really good idea for Arsenal. In the past few years there have been a few games where Wenger has reluctantly employed a more counter-attacking approach (e.g. I think a league win vs City and some of the big FA cup matches) and this actually worked pretty well when it's been tried. Time and again Arsenal have been accused of being naive, both against the top six and in Europe. There's been no willingness to close up shop or show some tactical solidity - so I think we need to add that to the repertoire.

Ozil can work in a counter-attacking system - in fact, his quick decision-making and through balls are essential to starting fast breaks. With fairly quick speedsters like Aubemeyang, Mkhitaryan, Welbeck and Bellerin, I reckon Arsenal could set up to be a very good counterattacking team - the only thing missing is the rock-solid defence and a good engine in midfield, which presumably Allegri could import and drill.

The question is how would that setup work against a windy wet night in Stoke...but if Leicester City can win the league with essentially that gameplan, it's not impossible that it could result in an improved league position for Arsenal.

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Well that was poor. Cant wait to see the back of West Brom. 

Top four could possibly come down to the final day of the season now. Chelsea beats Swansea away and then us at Stamford Bridge and things’ll be pretty nervy. Hopefully agent Rafa will beat them when they go to St. James.

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46 minutes ago, mormont said:

So, I think we agree that if United don't want to sell, they're not going to. But if they do, yeah, I think it would be very difficult to show a profit.

 

That's not necessarily true. Liverpool didn't want to sell Coutinho but they did and for a huge fee as well. 

 

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Yeah, but what then does 'stability' mean in that context?

The first year is building a team. The second is usually going all-out to win something. The third has a manager on the way out. None of these are really 'stability' in my book.

Depends. Many of the top clubs don't have managers staying for 5 years or more yet you wouldn't say that managers being changed every 3-4 years (or less in some cases) have had a major negative impact on the stability of the likes of Bayern, Barca, Real, Juve or even Chelsea. 

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18 minutes ago, Jeor said:

This is actually what makes me think Allegri would be a really good idea for Arsenal. In the past few years there have been a few games where Wenger has reluctantly employed a more counter-attacking approach (e.g. I think a league win vs City and some of the big FA cup matches) and this actually worked pretty well when it's been tried. Time and again Arsenal have been accused of being naive, both against the top six and in Europe. There's been no willingness to close up shop or show some tactical solidity - so I think we need to add that to the repertoire.

 

Those are good points, actually. I remember the game against Man City in 2014/15 that you mean, as it essentially derailed Man City’s title challenge against Chelsea that season.

Wenger’s reluctance to sit back even against teams in the top six and in Europe has been one of his biggest criticisms; the fact it is easy to recall games where he has actually taken a conservative approach says it all, considering he has managed over 1,200 games for Arsenal.

As you say, Arsenal have the pace up front and vision in midfield to play counter attacking football, but what has let them down is their defenders and the lack of defensive structure.

I don’t think Allegri would be a bad choice, by any means. In fact, of managers that might be available in the summer, he’d top most teams‘ wish lists. I am just uncertain he is the man for the Arsenal job. 

This isn’t bias speaking, but I think he would suit Chelsea better. As a club, we are well set up for managers to come in, take over and get some kind of success. Of course, it is never long term, but that’s what suits Chelsea and what suits many modern managers. 

Allegri was able to take over at AC Milan when they were 3rd in Serie A the season before and win the league in his first season. He was sacked from there and took on the Juve job after Conte won three titles in a row; now Allegri is trying to win his fourth in a row. 

Allegri has progressed them, obviously, by winning domestic cups and challenging in Europe, but the foundations were there for him to do that. Chelsea have had a bad season, but there is probably less of a task on hand for the next manager at Chelsea to get us to challenge again compared to the one for the next manager at Arsenal, which may suit Allegri. I mean, Conte was able to take us from 10th to 1st (albeit with the ‘advantage’ of no European football).

On top of that, there is a history of success for Italian coaches at Chelsea. We probably have closer to the profile of players that Allegri would want to work with. We have never had much care for style the way Arsenal do either. I can guess most sides look at Chelsea philosophy as ‘negative’, ‘defensive’ or ‘efficient’ anyway.

Of course, I think Allegri would bring success to Arsenal or Chelsea, if he were to end up at either club, I just believe he is less suited to Arsenal as he would be to Chelsea.

Unfortunatley, Arsenal have the chance to ‘officially’ pursue managers and perhaps even announce an appoint, all before the end of the season. Chelsea will have to wait until Conte’s situation at the club Ian made clear, which gives Arsenal the advantage if they are both chasing the same targets.

Brendan Rodgers is the favourite for the Arsenal job with Skybet and other bookmakers. I’m not really sure why that is? I would have definitely pictured him to be in the running, but being outright favourite is somewhat surprising.

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1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

That's not necessarily true. Liverpool didn't want to sell Coutinho but they did and for a huge fee as well. 

No: but if there's no real sign United want to sell, as you've claimed, there's even less sign that any other club is itching to sign Pogba, as was the case with Coutinho.

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Depends. Many of the top clubs don't have managers staying for 5 years or more yet you wouldn't say that managers being changed every 3-4 years (or less in some cases) have had a major negative impact on the stability of the likes of Bayern, Barca, Real, Juve or even Chelsea. 

What this says to me is that in modern football, stability does not come from the manager.

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No surprise that WBA suddenly fighting for some pride, and to make Pardew look bad, were able to snatch a point.  They piled forward for those late set pieces almost as heavily as they piled into dangerous tackles all day.  A pity the ref was so completely useless and allowed a bunch of reckless cloggers with nothing to lose to endanger our players. 

Hopefully no-one was hurt too badly.  Nice that we could rotate some players and manage subs to rest others.  Moreno wasn’t able to recapture his good form, and Gomez mostly was.  I’m very happy for Ings to score and play well — I hope he can build on this and become Firmino’s back-up. 

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I hope they figure out the new manager sooner rather than later. I dislike the uncertainty and the constant media speculation. I also hope it's either Allegri, Jardim or one of the young German coaches (which may not even be available). Won't be happy if it's a former Arsenal player.

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“It was a difficult game as the pitch got drier and drier,” he said. “West Brom decided not to water the pitch at half-time and that makes it difficult. It makes a massive difference. A team like West Brom do not need a wet pitch, they can do it next year playing on a dry pitch in the Championship.”

oh, klopp you whiner. 

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54 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I hope they figure out the new manager sooner rather than later. I dislike the uncertainty and the constant media speculation. I also hope it's either Allegri, Jardim or one of the young German coaches (which may not even be available). Won't be happy if it's a former Arsenal player.

Also won't be happy if it's Rogers. Brendan Rogers would be a terrible appointment for Arsenal. He doesn't have title-winning experience (which Allegri, Bardim etc would bring) and his attacking strengths, though obviously evident, are offset by the woeful defences at his teams. And the defence is what needs to be fixed. If Gazidis really does want to continue with Arsenal's "philosophy" then I suppose that would make sense, but we really don't need to continue late-period-Wengerism with a soft defence and sporadically devastating attack.

 

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Losing 2-1 to Hibs the day after Arsene resigns was perhaps not the ideal result for Brendan, to be fair.

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I'ma give credit to Jose on one thing, though it's taken him fucking long enough to arrive at it: Matic-Herrera-Pogba is a fucking smashing midfield.

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United were lucky not to have Valencia sent off in the first half, and I've no idea how Herrera hasn't had at least 6 yellow cards.

Spurs looked the better side for long spells, but their heads drop too easily when they concede.

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Herrera is a fucking boss. Great seeing him back in form. We're so much better when other fans are raging at him.

 

17 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

United were lucky not to have Valencia sent off in the first half, and I've no idea how Herrera hasn't had at least 6 yellow cards.



There were loads of fouls both ways that went un or under-punished. Trippier's stamp on Sanchez was at least as much of a red card as Valencia's.

Then Rashford got booked for some absolute nonsense.

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Herrera outstanding. Love this guy. He fights for the jersey. MOTM easily. Spurs were always going to have more possession and bulk of the play but I thought we played a good game and deserved the win. 

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