US Politics: Sit Up Straight and Show Some Respect

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Well done.

Couldda said that they wouldn't know what Mephistophelian meant.

I got you.

I got you.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Back in 2007/8 when the GFC was starting to hit there were more than a few voices on the right saying the US govt should let the big institutions fail and have zero bailout.

There were more than a few voices on the left saying the same thing as well.  Actually, considering the politics at the time, it was more so left than right.  Anti-globalization exists on the fringes of both left and right.

6 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I can imagine a few people in the current administration thinking that a global recession would be a good thing if it improves the USA's relative global power compared to its rivals (China and Europe mostly I suppose).

Sure, I can imagine them as well.  But outside of Miller can you name them?

[The Anti-Targ]

7 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

There were more than a few voices on the left saying the same thing as well.  Actually, considering the politics at the time, it was more so left than right.  Anti-globalization exists on the fringes of both left and right.

Sure, I can imagine them as well.  But outside of Miller can you name them?

I can't name many people in the administration. But the fact that a trade war seems to be imminent, and steel and aluminium tariffs on Europe and Canada that lack any real justification are in place, would suggest there is more than one person of influence in the administration (or perhaps outside of it) who are comfortable with idea of causing global economic havoc so long as the USA suffers less than others, and comes out in a more powerful position.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I can't name many people in the administration. But the fact that a trade war seems to be imminent, and steel and aluminium tariffs on Europe and Canada that lack any real justification are in place, would suggest there is more than one person of influence in the administration (or perhaps outside of it) who are comfortable with idea of causing global economic havoc so long as the USA suffers less than others, and comes out in a more powerful position.

The steel & aluminum tariffs are a minor battle, not a war.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

The steel & aluminum tariffs are a minor battle, not a war.

that's not relevant, it's the mentality that lead to it and the spurious justification of it.

[Jace, Extat]

So I helped my new squeeze with some physical labor yesterday evening at his mom's place and I noticed through the window that Tucker Carlson was on, causing me to think to myself 'well, at least that fucker (the mom's boyfriend, who was watching) is dying of cancer soon.'

Which made me do a little introspecting. I thought to myself 'Man, that's pretty fucked up. Especially since I've heard nothing but moderate to decent things about the dude'.

Then I thought to myself 'Eh, fuck 'em.'

This has been Thoughts With Jace.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

that's not relevant, it's the mentality that lead to it and the spurious justification of it.

It's entirely relevant and was the whole point I was making that you responded to.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm not so sure about that. Back in 2007/8 when the GFC was starting to hit there were more than a few voices on the right saying the US govt should let the big institutions fail and have zero bailout. While most people were super pissed off at the big institutions and would have liked then to fail, but knew that bailouts were needed to prevent a much bigger disaster. One could argue that a hard reset is better in the long term, but the cost of that in the suffering of the ordinary folk would be hard to take.

I think their concern was less on the common person and more firmly grounded in the ideological belief that any market intervention is always wrong, just in principle.

[LongRider]

How could China hurt the US in a trade war?

Quote

Aside from slapping tariffs on American products, China’s arsenal of potential retaliatory measures is formidable, and it could inflict heavy punishment on the more than US$200 billion of investment by American companies in China.

Increased safety inspections and delays in approving imports are possible tools, as are consumer boycotts of American goods sold in China’s rapidly growing retail market, or stemming a flow of free-spending tourists to the US.

China’s punishment of South Korea for allowing the US to station a missile defence system on the peninsula cost that nation billions of dollars, and it has used similar tactics against the Philippines and Japan as well.

China also has a pivotal role in Trump’s goal of disarming North Korea because without its participation, sanctions have little chance of success...………..……….In a longer-term, worst-case scenario, there also are actions such as selling down its massive stockpile of US Treasuries or devaluing the yuan, moves that would send shock waves through global markets...……………  “Xi is not looking to escalate the trade dispute, but is not afraid to climb the escalation ladder with Trump.”

 

 

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2151257/how-china-can-hit-back-long-grinding-trade-war-united

[Martell Spy]

The National Outrage Over Immigration Is Beginning to Get to Trump

The president met with House Republican lawmakers, pushed them to pass immigration reform, and indicated he would sign whichever bill reached his desk.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/trumps-gop-meeting-on-immigration-didnt-cause-complete-chaos/563243/

Quote

“The president was very firm in explaining why it’s so important that he gets this bill to his desk, so we can solve some major problems,” Majority Whip Steve Scalise told reporters after the meeting.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

It's entirely relevant and was the whole point I was making that you responded to.

Crossed wires then. Because it's the willingness to throw out established conventions in international trade relations, with allies, that are unjustified according to any sane reading of reality and WTO rules, that suggests those with influence over Trump are possibly more reckless and willing to do harm than you think. Or they don't have the influence they think they do.

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

I think their concern was less on the common person and more firmly grounded in the ideological belief that any market intervention is always wrong, just in principle.

That's what I said, kind of. They are social and economic Darwinists, let the strong survive, and let the weak die, literally and figuratively. There is no room for concern for the common people in there. Those on the left who wanted to let the big institutions fail did so with different motives, but possibly with a similarly callous willingness to let the common people suffer for an ideological outcome; though maybe they would feel a little more sympathy for the necessary collateral damage. Not sure if that makes the extreme left better or worse than the extreme right.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Because it's the willingness to throw out established conventions in international trade relations, with allies, that are unjustified according to any sane reading of reality and WTO rules, that suggests those with influence over Trump are possibly more reckless and willing to do harm than you think.

Not that I should be the one judging, but that's a really long sentence for a really simple thought:  reckless anti-globalists in Trump's administration have influence.  And, hey, maybe you're right.  My point is we have no evidence of that, and as for those actually holding the positions that would usually give us a hint, they'd all be against it.

[Martell Spy]

 

Report: Immigrant Babies, Toddlers Held in ‘Tender Age’ Shelters

https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-immigrant-babies-toddlers-held-in-tender-age-shelters?ref=home

Quote

The Trump administration has been sending immigrant toddlers and babies forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S. border to at least three “tender age” shelters in Texas—and there are plans to open a fourth facility in Houston, the Associated Press reports

 

[Which Tyler]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

[Fez]

7 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

Not that I should be the one judging, but that's a really long sentence for a really simple thought:  reckless anti-globalists in Trump's administration have influence.  And, hey, maybe you're right.  My point is we have no evidence of that, and as for those actually holding the positions that would usually give us a hint, they'd all be against it.

We have plenty of evidence of that. Did you forgot that Peter Navarro exists and has, for now, iced out Mnuchin on policy?

Larry Kudlow is totally spineless, mostly an idiot, and currently recovering from a heart attack. He's not going to be blocking anything.

John Kelly has totally checked out of doing anything; not that Trump would listen to him anymore anyway. https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/18/nielsen-trump-border-children-family-separation-653265

Quote

 

According to four people close to Kelly, the former Marine general has largely yielded his role as the enforcer in the West Wing as his relationship with Trump has soured. While Kelly himself once believed he stood between Trump and chaos, he has told at least one person close to him that he may as well let the president do what he wants, even if it leads to impeachment — at least this chapter of American history would come to a close.

In recent months, his Secret Service detail has often been spotted standing outside the gym in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building in the middle of the day — and White House officials who pass it on the way to meetings view his late morning workouts as an indication of him having thrown in the towel on trying to have any control inside the West Wing.

 

Joe Hagin is resigning in July. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/joe-hagin-white-house-leaving/index.html

Wilbur Ross doesn't care about anything except making a profit of his office.

There is a reckless anti-globalist in the administration: Trump himself. And another one edging him on: Peter Navarro. And there's no one with any influence or will to stop them.

[Which Tyler]

 

https://www.facebook.com/MIchelle.Martin15/posts/1852738241454566

There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:

There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:

Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn’t have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low

Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinion/2016/10/26/Donald-Trumps-wall-ignores-the-economic-logic-of-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/

Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinion/2016/10/26/Donald-Trumps-wall-ignores-the-economic-logic-of-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/

Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/ms-l-v-ice-plaintiffs-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56

Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/19/jeff-sessions/jeff-sessions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/

Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-democrats-us-border-migrant-families-children-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html

Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obtains-documents-showing-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody

Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-07/aclu-suit-over-child-separations-at-border-may-proceed-judge

[Tywin et al.]

16 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

I don't think I'm giving him any credit at all.  I'm saying he's talking out of his ass.  And even if he wants to do it, his administration is smart enough to make sure it doesn't happen - and he's incompetent enough to fail at making them do otherwise.

Like @Fez said, he's surrounded by people who want to disrupt the global order, sycophants, and people who've reportedly checked out. Furthermore, Trump is want to do things simply because people say he shouldn't. He reminds me of my cousin Brandon who stuck his hand in a fire while his parents and several other people were screaming at him not to do it. 

 

Also, isn't the quote "not worth a bucket of warm piss"? 

 

Also also, while I agree with your take on Pence, wasn't it reported that one of Trump's VP candidates was specifically selected because Trump thought he could run the day to day operations of the WH?

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Globalist! 

[Fragile Bird]

48 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Globalist! 

Just words from another Jewish Liberal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus

[Martell Spy]

Remember, both sides do this.

Corey Lewandowski Mocks 10-Year-Old Girl Torn From Mom: ‘Womp Womp’

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/corey-lewandowski-mocks-girl-torn-from-mom-womp-womp.html

 

Quote

 

In one of the most surreal examples of Trump-circle callousness regarding the lives of immigrant children (well, since yesterday), former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski sarcastically responded “womp womp” after another Fox News panelist spoke about a 10-year-old girl with Down syndrome being separated from her parents at the border.

After panelist Zac Petkanas responded “How dare you,” Lewandowski shot back: “You can pick anything you want out, but the bottom line is very clear, when you cross the border illegally, you have given up the rights of this country.”