Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin lived for almost 60 years, he was the youngest ever Hand, one of the longest serving Hands (20 years of peace and prosperity), and served a second time winning the war of the five kings. His daughter a Queen, two grandsons Kings. His legacy is more than secure even if his offspring lose the crown. 

Historically a person's legacy was evaluated on their achievements in life. Elizabeth has one of the greatest legacies of any monarch, not having any children did not change that. Alexander the Great's son was murdered  by one of his father's generals, Cassander, and the empire he built up fragmented yet Alexander's legacy is just as strong 2,300 years after his death. Caesar's son was murdered by a second cousin, while Julius himself was brutally murdered himself, one of them being something of an adopted son to him, it did not dampen his legacy. 

 

Tywin's legacy will be fine. 

Again. What you originally  stated as the inspiration for Tywin death is NOT what the author himself says very clearly actually is the inspiration. You can’t just reject the author’s intent and insert your own because you think a character is somehow not a villain. Martin wrote Tywin as a villain and gave him a corrupted death for a reason. 

[Gendarrion]

Grrm said there's no villain in the story
Tywin is not a villain in my opinion, I mean, In his mind, Stannis and Renly are trying to remove his grandsons as usurpers and he's fighting for their rights which is true btw, and Cat is the one who started the war anyway.

Reyne and Tarbeck destruction is necessary, Lannisters are almost brought to ruin by Tytos,  Reynes and Tarbeck are threatening/Scheming to remove house Lannister so they can take over them, and it is necessary so that the Westerlands houses will fear and respect the Lannisters again.

I don't think he has anything to do with Darklyns, it was the Mad kings stupidity.

He had Rhaegar's family killed - Well, it's true, but it was war, and he never thought that Gregor and Lorch will kill Elia and the kids so brutally, he even said he didn't really planned to harm Elia.

Red Wedding 

Quote

"Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner." 

I love the Starks but i can't explain this quote tbh.


1. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  2. He was bedding Shae. 3. Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

1. Yes, but he wants to disprove it, he even said the he intent to send Tyrion to the wall and I believe this, Cersei is the one rigging the Trial and all the judges thinks it's true, i mean if you're one of those judges and heard all those confession at the trial you'll probably thinks Tyrion is guilty as well.

2. since when did bedding a whore makes you a villain?

3. This is ridiculous, first he wants Tyrion to be the rule the North with his marriage to Sansa, He named him Hand of the king and Master of Coin, he trust in him when Kevan is indisposed, 

Tysha's rape is brutal as well, but Tywin's reasons is understandable, you live in medieval times, a great house and the richest family in the kingdom and one of your son married a commoner he just met and without your knowledge., I would have just sent Tysha away where Tyrion couldn't find her.

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/15/2018 at 4:17 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Again. What you originally  stated as the inspiration for Tywin death

Please actually read what I posted, nowhere did I claim it was the inspiration. 

Quote

 

You can’t just reject the author’s intent and insert your own

where exactly do you think I did that? 

Quote

 

because you think a character is somehow not a villain. Martin wrote Tywin as a villain and gave him a corrupted death for a reason. 

lol come on, many characters have had corrupted deaths, notably Ned and Robb. He has not reserved such deaths for 'villains'. 

[The Fattest Leech]

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please actually read what I posted, nowhere did I claim it was the inspiration. 

where exactly do you think I did that? 

lol come on, many characters have had corrupted deaths, notably Ned and Robb. He has not reserved such deaths for 'villains'. 

Martin “reserved” Tywin’s gross, corrupted death for a reason, and he used another story as inspiration, not what you used above. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Martin “reserved” Tywin’s gross, corrupted death for a reason, and he used another story as inspiration, not what you used above. 

Did you actually read what I wrote? 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did you actually read what I wrote? 

Yes, you are claiming Tywin’s grossness is just another corrupted death like other characters, and Tywin’s legacy is going to be fine.

According to the authors words, he chose a real source of inspiration for Tywin’s death specifically. And that death came with a corruption that was a reflection of him in life, and people expected this dead guy to “rise” to some sort of sainthood, but his corrupted death basically exposed what the man was in life. Those other two examples you gave earlier and your idea that Tywin’s death and legacy doesn’t mean anything significant to this character is against the authors word wrong. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, you are claiming Tywin’s grossness is just another corrupted death like other characters, and Tywin’s legacy is going to be fine.

Of course his legacy is going to be fine. He lived for almost 60 years and is perhaps the most notable individual  from the Westerlands in the 3 centuries of a united Westeros. 

 

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

According to the authors words, he chose a real source of inspiration for Tywin’s death specifically.

Do you have that quote? 

Who was the inspiration? 

 

[Hugorfonics]

On 8/15/2018 at 5:43 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin lived for almost 60 years, he was the youngest ever Hand, one of the longest serving Hands (20 years of peace and prosperity), and served a second time winning the war of the five kings. His daughter a Queen, two grandsons Kings. His legacy is more than secure even if his offspring lose the crown. 

Historically a person's legacy was evaluated on their achievements in life. Elizabeth has one of the greatest legacies of any monarch, not having any children did not change that. Alexander the Great's son was murdered  by one of his father's generals, Cassander, and the empire he built up fragmented yet Alexander's legacy is just as strong 2,300 years after his death. Caesar's son was murdered by a second cousin, while Julius himself was brutally murdered himself, one of them being something of an adopted son to him, it did not dampen his legacy. 

 

Tywin's legacy will be fine. 

Im not sure it will be.

Cersei plans on being greater then her father, I doubt thatll happen but she'll sure be more famous.

Perhaps the kingslayer as well.

Any legacy that Tywin created will be dwarfed by Tyrion.

Nobody tarnished Alexanders legacy. Augustus killed Caeserion to preserve Julian legacy. (Not sure about Stuart, not that shes as "great" as the formers)

Tywins children want (except Jaime for now, though hes a far better story) to replace Tywins legacy

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Tywins children want (except Jaime for now, though hes a far better story) to replace Tywins legacy

yeah, that is fairly common. Elizabeth's legacy has not done Henry VIII's any harm, children being notable does not harm the past.  

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Cersei plans on being greater then her father, I doubt thatll happen but she'll sure be more famous.

She is a Queen, that was always going to be a possibility. Not sure how that diminishes Tywin's 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course his legacy is going to be fine. He lived for almost 60 years and is perhaps the most notable individual  from the Westerlands in the 3 centuries of a united Westeros. 

 

Do you have that quote? 

Who was the inspiration? 

 

Shit yeah. All you had to do was ask. 

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

yeah, that is fairly common. Elizabeth's legacy has not done Henry VIII's any harm, children being notable does not harm the past.  

Because Heney only killed her mother, Tywin tried to kill him. 

Henry makes for a fun story and some religious history, Elizabeth led a golden age.

Tywin was a hand and a lord, his children will be more. 

Who will have a bigger legacy Robb or Ned?... Or Sansa/Jon/whomever? The storys not finished yet. History is written by the victor and no one likes Tywin

 

 

 

He had been a great man. I shall be greater, though. A thousand years from now, when the maesters write about this time, you shall be remembered only as Queen Cersei's sire.

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because Heney only killed her mother, Tywin tried to kill him. 

 

Again, how does this change his legacy? Tyrion has admitted his guilt and was sentenced to death.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He had been a great man. I shall be greater, though. A thousand years from now, when the maesters write about this time, you shall be remembered only as Queen Cersei's sire.

That may well be true, but Tywin's legacy is mostly built upon his 20 years as Hand before Cersei was Queen. When the Maester's write about the reign of the last Targ king Tywin will be a prominent part of that history.

[The Fattest Leech]

Q: Did you ever borrow anything from Russian literature? From our classics?

GRRM: I borrowed only one thing from Russian literature that I could think of, which was the little bit I did about the corpse of Tywin Lannister, which was taken from the “Brothers Karamazov.” But I haven’t read a lot of Russian literature, since I don’t read Russian. In college, I read the classics: Dostoyevsky’s “Crime and Punishment” and “Brothers Karamazov,” and “War and Peace,” and later I read “Doctor Zhivago.” I’ve tried to read some Russian science fiction, but mostly the only thing we had was the Strugatsky Brothers. Not having any Russian, my exposure was limited.

The book begins immediately following the death of Zosima. It is a commonly held perception in the town, and the monastery as well, that true holy men's bodies are incorrupt, i.e., they do not succumb to putrefaction. Thus, the expectation concerning the Elder Zosima is that his deceased body will not decompose. It comes as a great shock to the entire town that Zosima's body not only decays, but begins the process almost immediately following his death. Within the first day, the smell of Zosima's body is already unbearable. For many this calls into question their previous respect and admiration for Zosima. Alyosha is particularly devastated by the sullying of Zosima's name due to nothing more than the corruption of his dead body. One of Alyosha's companions in the monastery named Rakitin uses Alyosha's vulnerability to set up a meeting between him and Grushenka.

"That's not to say that all characters are equally grey. You know, some are very dark grey and some are mostly white but they still have occasional flaws...". Tywin is very dark grey. Tyrion, whom Martin outright calls a villain, is probably not as dark grey as his father (his coin seems to still be flipping in the air). Cersei is a Tywin with teats and she is on the fast track to becoming very dark grey.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

It was gloomy within the sept with the sky so grey outside. If the rain ever stopped, the sun would slant down through the hanging crystals to drape the corpse in rainbows. The Lord of Casterly Rock deserved rainbows. He had been a great man. I shall be greater, though. A thousand years from now, when the maesters write about this time, you shall be remembered only as Queen Cersei's sire.

"Mother." Tommen tugged her sleeve. "What smells so bad?"

My lord father. "Death." She could smell it too; a faint whisper of decay that made her want to wrinkle her nose. Cersei paid it no mind. The seven septons in the silver robes stood behind the bier, beseeching the Father Above to judge Lord Tywin justly. When they were done, seventy-seven septas gathered before the altar of the Mother and began to sing to her for mercy. Tommen was fidgeting by then, and even the queen's knees had begun to ache. She glanced at Jaime. Her twin stood as if he had been carved from stone, and would not meet her eyes.

Lord Gyles was coughing more than usual and covering his nose with a square of red silk. He can smell it too. Grand Maester Pycelle had his eyes closed. If he has fallen asleep, I swear I will have him whipped. To the right of the bier knelt the Tyrells: the Lord of Highgarden, his hideous mother and vapid wife, his son Garlan and his daughter Margaery. Queen Margaery, she reminded herself; Joff's widow and Tommen's wife-to-be. Margaery looked very like her brother, the Knight of Flowers. The queen wondered if they had other things in common. Our little rose has a good many ladies waiting attendance on her, night and day. They were with her now, almost a dozen of them. Cersei studied their faces, wondering. Who is the most fearful, the most wanton, the hungriest for favor? Who has the loosest tongue? She would need to make a point of finding out.

It was a relief when the singing finally ended. The smell coming off her father's corpse seemed to have grown stronger. Most of the mourners had the decency to pretend that nothing was amiss, but Cersei saw two of Lady Margaery's cousins wrinkling their little Tyrell noses. As she and Tommen were walking back down the aisle the queen thought she heard someone mutter "privy" and chortle, but when she turned her head to see who had spoken a sea of solemn faces gazed at her blankly. They would never have dared make japes about him when he was still alive. He would have turned their bowels to water with a look.

If you think GRRM doesn't write villains, you need to figure out who Saagael, Daemon Julian, Johnathon Harmon, Cyrain of Ash and Lilith, Simon Kress, the Steel Angels, and so many others are.

Martin has also talked about being a (laxed) existentialist, and guess what Dostoevsky classifies as?

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:59 AM, Gendarrion said:

Grrm said there's no villain in the story
Tywin is not a villain in my opinion, I mean, In his mind, Stannis and Renly are trying to remove his grandsons as usurpers and he's fighting for their rights which is true btw, and Cat is the one who started the war anyway.

Reyne and Tarbeck destruction is necessary, Lannisters are almost brought to ruin by Tytos,  Reynes and Tarbeck are threatening/Scheming to remove house Lannister so they can take over them, and it is necessary so that the Westerlands houses will fear and respect the Lannisters again.

I don't think he has anything to do with Darklyns, it was the Mad kings stupidity.

He had Rhaegar's family killed - Well, it's true, but it was war, and he never thought that Gregor and Lorch will kill Elia and the kids so brutally, he even said he didn't really planned to harm Elia.

Red Wedding 

I love the Starks but i can't explain this quote tbh.


1. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  2. He was bedding Shae. 3. Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

1. Yes, but he wants to disprove it, he even said the he intent to send Tyrion to the wall and I believe this, Cersei is the one rigging the Trial and all the judges thinks it's true, i mean if you're one of those judges and heard all those confession at the trial you'll probably thinks Tyrion is guilty as well.

2. since when did bedding a whore makes you a villain?

3. This is ridiculous, first he wants Tyrion to be the rule the North with his marriage to Sansa, He named him Hand of the king and Master of Coin, he trust in him when Kevan is indisposed, 

Tysha's rape is brutal as well, but Tywin's reasons is understandable, you live in medieval times, a great house and the richest family in the kingdom and one of your son married a commoner he just met and without your knowledge., I would have just sent Tysha away where Tyrion couldn't find her.

In no way shape or form is Tysha’s rape necessary or understandable. That’s fucked up shit even for a medieval setting. He made some Tarbeck women join the silent sisters. You’re telling me he couldn’t do the same to an orphaned girl after an illegal, anullable wedding?

 

[Hugorfonics]

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Again, how does this change his legacy? Tyrion has admitted his guilt and was sentenced to death.

Because coming back after that will dwarf (lol too easy) his sentencing.

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That may well be true, but Tywin's legacy is mostly built upon his 20 years as Hand before Cersei was Queen. When the Maester's write about the reign of the last Targ king Tywin will be a prominent part of that history.

I doubt that too. He'll be one of many Hands who didn't fight for or against Baratheon and friends.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because coming back after that will dwarf (lol too easy) his sentencing.

 

I'm sorry,  I have no idea what you are trying to say here. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I doubt that too. He'll be one of many Hands who didn't fight for or against Baratheon and friends.

He's currently the youngest ever Hand, the third longest serving. How exactly will this be expunged from history? 

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry,  I have no idea what you are trying to say here. 

Tyrion>Tywin

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's currently the youngest ever Hand, the third longest serving. How exactly will this be expunged from history? 

King went mad, lost his crown.

He wont be expunged from history, historians, maesters and other such would know his name. But his kids will be household

If Tywin will leave any legacy it'll be Aegon and Rhaenys, hopefully the RW 

[Lion of the West]

You guys can dream on, but unless the Targaryens goes full cultural revolution and destroys the Citadel and all its texts, Tywin's tenure as Hand and his saving of House Lannister and its rise to prominence will live on forever.

Provided the Lannisters do end up losing, which really isn't certain, of course.

[Lady Anna]

"Was Tywin Lannister a villain?"

Yes.

[SeanF]

Yes, he was.