How would a marriage between Brandon and Catelyn work?

[HoodedCrow]

Hmmm... I don’t see Cat as humble, in fact I wonder if part of her historical inspiration was Proud Cis, or Cicely Neville.

i don’t think she would have adjusted well to Brandon’s free range amorous style. She really doesn’t  have a great attitude to Jon. Brandon had quite a temper, and was not emotionally intelligent in approaching Aerys about Lyanna.

Catelyn also makes mistakes like persuading Ned to go to KL and supporting the Joff/Sansa match without doing enough due diligence on the Prince, Robert and Cersei situation. 

Catelyns kids were not trained even at a bare bones level in political savvy which they would need, regardless of the scale. She did not seem to understand her children and their strengths and weaknesses, and instead it seems left to Ned. I don’t think Brandon had good dad as an obvious gift.

if Brandon was left as a warrior in his own territory he might mature. Catelyn was successful as a manager of the domestic situation. Catelyn is also feisty. Would that really mesh well with Brandon in a business relationship, or a romantic one where he likes to bloody his sword?

[LindsayLohan]

Weird to see people bashing someone we know nothing about, but giving Cat a pass.  Do you forget how she treated Jon?  She never addressed him by his name a single time in his life, until the last time she saw him before he was shipped to the Wall, and it was so she could wish death upon him.  Catelyn is pure trash, and both Ned and Brandon deserved better.

[Chisa]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, we got a taste of what happens to someone who enjoys fighting and women with Robert Baratheon.

That's basically almost every Lord. I think Brandon would've made a fine husband. Not as loyal, but also a lot more passionate. Ned seems extremely distant. 

 

14 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Would Brandon/Cat be a beautiful love story like Ned/Cat? No but that doesn’t mean it would be another Robert/Cersei marriage.

I don't even think Ned/Cat was a beautiful love story. I personally prefer Tywin and Joanna. I think Ned/Cat were more dutiful than loving. Can't deny that they did seem to care about each other,  but so did Barbrey Dustin and they were married for just a handful of time. I mean seriously if I were to be in an arranged marriage,  let it be with a person who holds a grudge over my bones for over 15 years. 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

 

Catelyn also makes mistakes like persuading Ned to go to KL and supporting the Joff/Sansa match without doing enough due diligence on the Prince, Robert and Cersei situation. 

Catelyns kids were not trained even at a bare bones level in political savvy which they would need, regardless of the scale. She did not seem to understand her children and their strengths and weaknesses, and instead it seems left to Ned. I don’t think Brandon had good dad as an obvious gift.

She reminds me a bit of Tywin, what with her ambitions for a royal match and not particularly understanding her children (plus Jon).

 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/25/2018 at 3:53 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So Brandon Stark son of Rickard (Ned's brother) was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully. Would it have worked out as a marriage? Or would have it turned out something like Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister?

I see no reason why Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully wouldn't have worked out. At the very least, they would have done their duties. But it is possible they would have had a passionate marriage, and might have even grown to love each other.

And though Brandon has a reputation re: women, most of that was probably pre-betrothal. Barbrey Ryswell is the only woman he is explicitly indicated to have slept with after his betrothal, a woman who had been his lover up to that point.

- Brandon was born in 262 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II)
- Brandon was 20 when it was announced Catelyn was to wed him (AGOT: Catelyn IV)
- Brandon was 20 when he died, a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn (AGOT: Eddard I)
- Brandon died in 282 AC

Though it's possible Brandon intended to resume his affair with Barbrey upon his return north, it's also possible that he ended their relationship prior to going south to wed Catelyn. We simply do not know whether he would have continued sleeping around as a married man, whether with Barbrey or others.

And for her part, Catelyn doesn't appear to be especially sensitive about the idea of her husband sleeping with another woman, or even fathering bastards, so long as they remained out of sight.

Brandon and Catelyn did not have anything comparable to the Lyanna baggage Robert had and the Rhaegar baggage Cersei had going into their marriage.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/25/2018 at 4:07 PM, The Young Maester said:

Catelyn would be the humble wife trying to give her Brandon as many sons and daughters, however she wont love Brandon as much as she loved Ned. In my personal view Brandon was an unpleasant person, he took a noble ladies maidenhood (Barbrey Rysell/Dustin) and who knows how many other noble women he bedded, and plus I doubt he would stop his lustful acts with Catelyn, he would keep going with his lustful life as heir of Winterfell whilst humble and proud mother Catelyn has been given him children and not straying from his bed. Catelyn is nowhere close to being Cersei, shes loyal and was raised with the duty of giving a man children no matter if that man sleeps with other women, whilst Cersei was raised believing she would be Queen, and that the Lion doesn't bow to sheeps and these sort of things. 

I also doubt Brandon would treat Catelyn as Robert treated Cersei.

I don't think that's necessarily an accurate assessment. Catelyn does not appear to have been the least bit turned off by Brandon and his personality. In fact, she appears to have had to overcome her initial disappointment that Ned wasn't just a younger version of Brandon in both his looks and his personality.

Brandon and Barbrey were both unpledged when he took her maidenhead, and they might have even had a not-unrealistic hope of wedding before they found out about Lord Rickard's plan for Brandon. Barbrey is the only woman he is explicitly implied to have slept with after his betrothal was known.

Whether or not there is truth to speculation he slept with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, it is unclear whether he was betrothed at that point.

Even so, we don't know whether Brandon would have continued with other women after his marriage, nor does Catelyn appear to be especially bothered by the idea of her husband sleeping with other women, or even fathering bastards, so long as they were kept out of her sight.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/25/2018 at 5:04 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I doubt Brandon would have built Catelyn a sept. There is also a chance that Brandon wouldn't have wanted a septon teaching his children. He probably would have had bastards but would have had them raised outside of Winterfell. I don't think he'd be cruel to Cat but he wouldn't respect her or value her council like Ned. Catelyn would focus even more on her children.

I don't think we know enough about Brandon to say he was so averse to the southron gods. He had a squire, and he rode in the Harrenhal Tourney, so apparently did not share what Catelyn viewed as "the Stark views on tournaments."

[Pikachu101]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

ambitions for a royal match and not particularly understanding her children (plus Jon).

It would be ambition if she actively sought out a Baratheon betrothal, accepting an offer for your daughter (who was more than happy with the arrangement) to be future queen is common sense. 

Also how does she not understand her children?

 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/25/2018 at 7:14 PM, EloImFizzy said:

Its hard to say, we doesn't really have an unbiased view on him. Eddard was his brother, and as much as I love the man he isn't the best judge of character, Catelyn and Barbrey both loved him, and Littlefinger despised him. 

I don't think Brandon would be cruel to Catelyn, but I don't think he would respect her in the way Ned did. Brandon would probably sleep with other women and father many bastards, but I don't think he would bring them to Winterfell. Saying that as someone who believes in R+L=J, I think the only reason Ned brought Jon with him was because of his promise to Lyanna to protect him. If Jon were actually Ned's bastard, lets say by Ashara, then I think he would probably have left him in Starfall. 

Unlike Ned who was raised around the Faith of the Seven, Brandon spent all his life in the North so might not have built Catelyn a sept nor wanted his children raised worshiping the Faith. 

I don't think we can assume that Brandon would sleep with other women once he was wed. His only confirmed relationship thus far was with Barbrey Ryswell. They were both unpledged when they began sleeping together, and for all we know might have even hoped to wed. While it appears that Brandon did sleep with her at least once after his betrothal to Catelyn was announced, on their last night together, this does not necessarily prove he intended to keep sleeping with her, or intended to sleep with other women. What he did before he was pledged or wed is not necessarily an indication of what he would have done when he was wed.

I also don't think we can assume Brandon's stances on septs and the Faith, particularly for his wife and children. He had a squire, he rode in the Harrenhal Tourney (that we know of), and his companions when he went to the Red Keep included a Mallister of the riverlands, a Royce of the Vale, and Jon Arryn's nephew and heir Elbert. He was doing southron things, and hanging out with southron people, whether or not they all followed the Faith, which we don't have enough information to confirm or dismiss. His father had sent his brother Eddard to foster with the most Andalous of Andal houses in House Arryn for a decade.

And the Starks had already established ties to the Vale, as Rickard's aunt had married a Royce and had three daughters that married into Vale families like the Corbrays and Waynwoods. Not to mention the Royce, Lorra, that Brandon his siblings descended from through both their father Rickard and mother. 

This is not to suggest that Winterfell had been southronized before Brandon, but I suspect he was raised by a Stark that was much more open to southron culture and ties than earlier generations of Starks, and in an environment that disposed him more positively to southron culture, such as the Faith, even if just for the sake of marriage ties with southroners.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/25/2018 at 7:25 PM, Stormking902 said:

Noone gives Brandon any kind of credit when we know absolutely almost nothing about the man besides he enjoys fighting and is awesome at it and he is probably a bit of a play boy which is fine he is the heir to the North after all and young SINGLE men will have fun lol.

We do not know if he would have taken his marriage serious and stay faithful or if he would be a Northern Robert, what we do know if is loves his family very much and was willing to die to protect his sister and father in the most extreme sense of WILLING to die. Cat would be his wife and mother of his children perhaps that would be enough to keep her happy and be the faithful loving husband Ned was. 

I would agree that there are negative assumptions about Brandon that are taken for granted on this forum which are not necessarily factual. His betrothal and death both occurred in his 20th year, so we can't say how faithful or unfaithful he would have been to a wife. He appears to have slept with Barbrey Ryswell at least once after his betrothal was announced, who he had already been sleeping with when both were unpledged. But we don't know the nature of his feelings for her, and that could have also been the last time he intended to sleep with her. We also don't know whether Brandon truly slept with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, nor whether his betrothal had been made at the time. Harwin's statement in ASOS - Arya VIII could be taken to indicate that Brandon was already betrothed at the time, but I find his statement to be potentially unreliable on that point.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:10 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, we got a taste of what happens to someone who enjoys fighting and women with Robert Baratheon. Brandon wasn’t very willing when it came to his betrothal to Catelyn and with Robert’s marriage to Cersei and Lysa’s marriage to Jon Arryn, when neither is willing, things... don’t work out.

Offhand, I started a thread a while back speculating about whether or not Robert had a bastard in the North.

That Brandon told Barbrey he didn't love Catelyn doesn't mean he wasn't willing to wed her and do his duty. For all we know his last night with Barbrey might have been intended to be his last night with Barbrey, and not just his last with her on account of dying before getting to have another. Nor does it mean he never would have grown to love Catelyn, like how Catelyn eventually grew to love Ned, whom she had initially been disappointed was not like Brandon in looks and personality.

[Bael's Bastard]

23 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

True but we have no indication brandon was a bad man and he and cat had courted for years with no issues (bar littlefinger needing an attitude check)

Brandon was born in 262 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II), was twenty when his betrothal to Catelyn was announced (AGOT: Catelyn IV), and was still twenty when he was killed (AGOT: Eddard I). Therefore, their betrothal was announced in 281 or 282 AC, and they were betrothed for less than a year. But I agree that we have no indication Brandon was a bad man. The only explicit example we have of him sleeping with someone after his betrothal is with Barbrey Ryswell on their last night together, someone who he had already been sleeping with when they were both unpledged. For all we know, he could have intended that to be their last night together, just as easily as he could have intended to carry on an affair with her.

[Ser Leftwich]

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

- Brandon was born in 262 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II)
- Brandon was 20 when it was announced Catelyn was to wed him (AGOT: Catelyn IV)
- Brandon was 20 when he died, a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn (AGOT: Eddard I)
- Brandon died in 282 AC

 

Catelyn says the match was made when she was 12 (so 276 or 277). Brandon says something about talking about Petyr with heat and anger. Brandon clearly had visited Riverun many times between the betrothal and the announced wedding date.

He had plenty of years to philander.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

To honest at lease with myself , I don't know what type of marriage Brandon and Catelyn would have , but by her own words she may have been in lust with Brandon while according to Barbrey Dustin ,Brandon did not want to marry Catelyn and only wedded her out of a sense of duty to his father . Will Catelyn be a good wife ? Ned did not have any complaints . Would Brandon be faithful ? He faithful to Barbrey .

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Pikachu101 said:

It would be ambition if she actively sought out a Baratheon betrothal, accepting an offer for your daughter (who was more than happy with the arrangement) to be future queen is common sense. 

Also how does she not understand her children?

 

Is her behavior towards Jon any different than how Tywin acts toward Tyrion?

She never tried to make Arya and Sansa get along, even though Sansa and her friends Jeyne and Beth ganged up on Arya and bullied her. 

[Leonardo]

Much like other marriages. Stick em with the pointy end

[Faera]

I doubt too much would have been all that different other than the relationship itself. Given that we know about Brandon he probably would have continued his womanising and fathered bastards, which Cat would have had to put up with. Of course, I doubt he would have brought any of them home - unlike Ned. However, I think there would have been a personality clash as well. Ultimately, Cat, much like Ned, was a bit of a stick on the mud whereas Brandon was wild and lively. He'd have exhausted her and she while she'd have put up with him I don't think she would have respected him as she did Ned.

[Pikachu101]

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Is her behavior towards Jon any different than how Tywin acts toward Tyrion?

Are you serious? Tywin sexually, physically, and emotionally abused his own son there isn't a comparison at all.

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

She never tried to make Arya and Sansa get along, even though Sansa and her friends Jeyne and Beth ganged up on Arya and bullied her. 

Same could be said about Ned, also sometimes siblings don't get along and can be bratty that's just normal 

[Lord Lannister]

I always got the feeling Ned put Brandon up on pedestal so high he couldn't see his flaws. I don't doubt that Catelyn would be a dutiful wife, but she's become a very embittered person being married to Brandon I think. Especially if he keeps sleeping around and word of it gets to her.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:15 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

Catelyn says the match was made when she was 12 (so 276 or 277). Brandon says something about talking about Petyr with heat and anger. Brandon clearly had visited Riverun many times between the betrothal and the announced wedding date.

He had plenty of years to philander.

Now that you mention it, I see that Catelyn says she was twelve when her father promised her to Brandon (AGOT: Catelyn II), while Petyr was scarcely fifteen and Brandon twenty when it was announced Catelyn was to wed Brandon (AGOT: Catelyn IV), which creates a discrepancy of up to five or six years.

It would be interesting to see this clarified, as it doesn't make sense that Petyr would have been unaware of the betrothal for five or six years. I suppose it could be explained that this was the announcement that the wedding was going to occur after years of betrothal, but it seems odd that Petyr would have such a delayed reaction, after Catelyn had been betrothed for so long.