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The Pink Letter

Would you let Samwell inherit Hornhill?

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On 8/7/2018 at 2:57 AM, dmfn said:

No. He's soft and craven. 

Calm down Randyll.

But seriously I agree. I would probably let him become a maester though.

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16 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

Calm down Randyll.

But seriously I agree. I would probably let him become a maester though.

That was totally my Randyll Tarly impression. Works like a charm.

Unfortunately, Sam was born to advise capable leaders/rulers, not lead/rule himself. 

Just being educated and astute isn't enough in Westeros. A guy like Littlefinger has a much better chance.

But if RT really wanted to, he could cherry pick a bride for Sam that would rule in his stead, but still pass on Tarly's name. Westeros has plenty of strong women.

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16 hours ago, dmfn said:

 

But if RT really wanted to, he could cherry pick a bride for Sam that would rule in his stead, but still pass on Tarly's name. Westeros has plenty of strong women.

He kind of did try to do that when he tried to negotiate the marriage of Sam to Lord Redwyne's daughter, the support of a House that powerful would have made Sam's rule a bit more stable

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I probably would have let him inherit because I'm not Randyll Tarly.  It's was Randyl's constant bullying and humiliations that made Sam such a massive coward.  Replace Randyl with a father capable of compassion and empathy and Sam turns out completely different.

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On August 15, 2018 at 11:07 AM, White Ravens said:

I probably would have let him inherit because I'm not Randyll Tarly.  It's was Randyl's constant bullying and humiliations that made Sam such a massive coward.  Replace Randyl with a father capable of compassion and empathy and Sam turns out completely different.

Randyl merely acted like the typical man of his rank would in a medeval society; he applied more pressure on Sam because that's the way he and his society has been taught on how to toughen up boys into men. Sadly, Sam is a deviant, the standard ways of raising a lordling, simply didn't work on him. Still shouldn't get the title, the house could be ruined just Tytos Lanister near ruined his house.

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On 8/7/2018 at 3:52 AM, The Pink Letter said:

This is another controversial post on Samwell.  You play Lord Tarly.  Your eldest son is Samwell.  Hornhill is his by right of birth.  So do you give him Hornhill and your title?  

I'd make sure Sam married an alpha-girl capable of keeping him from playing a fool.

Imagine matching Sam with a Cersei-type-girl, she'd get to rule and scheme freely and he'd be nothing but grateful for it.

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6 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'd make sure Sam married an alpha-girl capable of keeping him from playing a fool.

Imagine matching Sam with a Cersei-type-girl, she'd get to rule and scheme freely and he'd be nothing but grateful for it.

Bernie Mac   pointed this out

 

   #43

Posted yesterday at 04:05 AM

  On 8/15/2018 at 12:35 AM, dmfn said:

 

 

But if RT really wanted to, he could cherry pick a bride for Sam that would rule in his stead, but still pass on Tarly's name. Westeros has plenty of strong women.

 

He kind of did try to do that when he tried to negotiate the marriage of Sam to Lord Redwyne's daughter, the support of a House that powerful would have made Sam's rule a bit more stable

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16 hours ago, dmfn said:

Bernie Mac   pointed this out

 

   #43

Posted yesterday at 04:05 AM

  On 8/15/2018 at 12:35 AM, dmfn said:

 

 

But if RT really wanted to, he could cherry pick a bride for Sam that would rule in his stead, but still pass on Tarly's name. Westeros has plenty of strong women.

 

He kind of did try to do that when he tried to negotiate the marriage of Sam to Lord Redwyne's daughter, the support of a House that powerful would have made Sam's rule a bit more stable

Great minds think alike. :)

Wonder why he gave up on it, if that was what he was going for.

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2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Great minds think alike. :)

Wonder why he gave up on it, if that was what he was going for.

I'm pretty sure it was Redwyne that put a stop to that. 

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12 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

I'm pretty sure it was Redwyne that put a stop to that. 

Sure. There would be other headstrong young ladies out there though. Randall doesn't strike me as a quitter.

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41 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Sure. There would be other headstrong young ladies out there though. Randall doesn't strike me as a quitter.


It's pretty hard to narrow down though, how's he going to know which houses to approach? It's a pretty niche thing to be on the lookout for a woman that's going to babysit his son's fief, if they are out there then word of that somehow has got to reach Randyll but it's not really something you'd hear about. Then he has to find a house worthy of his house and then that woman's father has to be willing to accept Sam as a son in law, it's a total complex shitshow not only finding a wife for Sam but also finding one that's capable of basically being the lord.

Any headstrong lady from a house important enough to have word of it reach Randyll probably wouldn't look twice at Sam, even when it's about land and alliances there are still some expectations. 

EDIT: There's also the problem that Sam wife's loyalty to her own family may lead to House Tarly diminishing in favour of her own family, she holds all the power. Plus vassals may not take kindly to the wife of their lord throwing her weight around when she has no blood claim and her husband is a pushover. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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31 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:


It's pretty hard to narrow down though, how's he going to know which houses to approach? It's a pretty niche thing to be on the lookout for a woman that's going to babysit his son's fief, if they are out there then word of that somehow has got to reach Randyll but it's not really something you'd hear about. Then he has to find a house worthy of his house and then that woman's father has to be willing to accept Sam as a son in law, it's a total complex shitshow not only finding a wife for Sam but also finding one that's capable of basically being the lord.

Any headstrong lady from a house important enough to have word of it reach Randyll probably wouldn't look twice at Sam, even when it's about land and alliances there are still some expectations. 

EDIT: There's also the problem that Sam wife's loyalty to her own family may lead to House Tarly diminishing in favour of her own family, she holds all the power. Plus vassals may not take kindly to the wife of their lord throwing her weight around when she has no blood claim and her husband is a pushover. 

Randyll had some early indicators Sam was not very masculine. He could have started shopping around early, touring the Reach, talking to the other vassals, holding some feasts or whatever.

Like Selwyn Tarth somehow found a good size group of boys to come meet Brienne. Randyll himself is pretty well respected. I think some weaker houses might fall all over themselves for a chance to be in the Tarly circle. 

I guess having Dickon around was just too easy of a solution. But iirc Dick's still pretty darn young. He could get sick or become a sadist or anything else. Kind of a big risk on RT's part, just because his son is fat and likes to read.

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It's more finding the right woman without announcing to the world that I need someone to rule instead of my son, it's not exactly an easy thing to put about in the looking for a match situation. With Brienne it's different, the societal view is that they just need to have babies, also that's the problem again does Randyll want a woman from a weaker house dominating his son in regards to the future of his House. 

Randyll has to be mindful of that future, looking for someone to rule in Sam's stead might be more harmful than just getting rid of him and getting a cousin to inherit instead, at least Dickon lets him continue his line directly. 

Randyll probably sees any scenario where Sam is lord with someone ruling for him as a threat to House Tarly. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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On 8/7/2018 at 8:09 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'm n all seriousness, yes, Sam has displayed flaws, particularly a lack of physical bravery and some mental fragility, throughout the series. But my contention is that we have seen enough of his character to show he has some great qualities which, if nurtured, will lead him to great things. I actually think that's pretty much the essence of his character arc.

I think the point is yes,  Sam is a good person. And yes,  he's brave. Because one is only truly brave when one is scared.  Sam has grown as a character,  but the question the OP puts forward is whether you'd send him to the wall if you were Randyll. This is not about you,  it's about the entire Tarly legacy, the people in the Tarly lands and the entire Reach for that matter,  because of it position. I think Sam's a good person,  great person even but a good Lord. Ask yourself,  would you want him as the Lord Commander of the NG. No. 

Maybe others would have chosen the citadel instead of the wall. But even that doesn't sound like a good idea if you'd be in Randyll's place. It's a place you can fail and come back home from. What makes me think that Sam would fail?  The fact that he had so much potential but didn't try hard enough before when he was a Hornhill makes me believe he wasn't strong willed enough to pass. And the citadel isn't just about reading books, if studies were just about loving to read,  I'd top my class.  Imagine all the people that love reading and let them try mastering Medicine, History,  Accountancy Etc. 

As much as I love Sam,  he would not have mase a good maester (Now he will because now he has seen the dead walking, I'm talking about earlier). Much less a good Lord (before or now, in future he might)  because a good leader needs to inspire, make hard decisions and sometimes even be more brave than wise, ie,  taking risks. I'm not saying Sam doesn't take risks,  but he is far from being his father(with his war prowess), or Tywin (with his administration) or Mace (who somehow inspires loyalty, I'm guessing by way of talk) or Doran (with his savvy political games).  I don't think Ned was a particularly great Lord other than his famed Honor but yeah,  Sam wouldn't have that honor too.  

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My father wanted me to play sports growing up, so I did. I was never anything special, and the first chance I got to quit, I quit. I know my dad was disappointed, but he didn't ship me off to frozen wasteland with rapers and thieves to die in the snow.

We still have debates today about nature vs nurture. At the end of the day you're talking about a relationship with your own flesh and blood, or glory for your family name after you die. 

Did Robert think Joffrey would be a good king? Doran think Quentyn a good prince? Roose and Ramsey? 

If every lord who had doubts about his heir did like Randyll, I don't think the Wall would be under-manned.

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10 hours ago, dmfn said:

Randyll had some early indicators Sam was not very masculine. He could have started shopping around early, touring the Reach, talking to the other vassals, holding some feasts or whatever.

Like Selwyn Tarth somehow found a good size group of boys to come meet Brienne. Randyll himself is pretty well respected. I think some weaker houses might fall all over themselves for a chance to be in the Tarly circle. 

Briene's only suiter to which didn't die and was willingly to marry Briene was an old house-knight(who basiclly could offer nothing),  who made very clear Briene would start acting womanly.  

Yes, some lower ranked houses likely  could/would marry Sam; that however would weaken House Tarly's standing.

10 hours ago, dmfn said:

I guess having Dickon around was just too easy of a solution. But iirc Dick's still pretty darn young. He could get sick or become a sadist or anything else. Kind of a big risk on RT's part, just because his son is fat and likes to read.

Dickon is only five or so years younger than Sam. Randyl's concern with Sam is his weak will; he could be fat(most lords need not be in the best shape to do their duties), and like to read(really weird how people think Tarly despises Sam's want to read-as if he's some dumb jock who hates nerds), but what he cannot be a weak.

Better to leave it to the younger, yet stronger son than the hopeless elder.

 

4 hours ago, dmfn said:

 

My father wanted me to play sports growing up, so I did. I was never anything special, and the first chance I got to quit, I quit. I know my dad was disappointed, but he didn't ship me off to frozen wasteland with rapers and thieves to die in t

 

Yeah, again Sam by virtue of being around could always pose a risk to Dickon's line. 

 

4 hours ago, dmfn said:

We still have debates today about nature vs nurture. At the end of the day you're talking about a relationship with your own flesh and blood, or glory for your family name after you die. 

More is at stake than glory; Sam's weakness could very well spell danger to House Tarly; people could die due to his weakness.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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10 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:


It's pretty hard to narrow down though, how's he going to know which houses to approach? It's a pretty niche thing to be on the lookout for a woman that's going to babysit his son's fief, if they are out there then word of that somehow has got to reach Randyll but it's not really something you'd hear about. Then he has to find a house worthy of his house and then that woman's father has to be willing to accept Sam as a son in law, it's a total complex shitshow not only finding a wife for Sam but also finding one that's capable of basically being the lord.

Any headstrong lady from a house important enough to have word of it reach Randyll probably wouldn't look twice at Sam, even when it's about land and alliances there are still some expectations. 

EDIT: There's also the problem that Sam wife's loyalty to her own family may lead to House Tarly diminishing in favour of her own family, she holds all the power. Plus vassals may not take kindly to the wife of their lord throwing her weight around when she has no blood claim and her husband is a pushover. 

Yeah, good points all.

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