U.S. Politics: Death and Tax Cuts

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

[Edit for space]

Yeah, that's my point man.  It's the Jack Bauer question.  Frankly, I'm surprised the numbers are as low as they are.

[Gone and Quite Forgotten]

16 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Wow, suddenly some americans became very defensive, wonder why? 

Well, I'm personally getting a little bit irked that people keep putting words or intent in my mouth that aren't there. Going back over this thread I called John McCain a warmonger, compared the military industrial complex to the War Machine of Nazi Germany, said every American president has blood on their hands, called Kissinger a war criminal, and said that the ultimate tragedy of America is its perpetual failure to live up to the ideals enshrined in our national lexicon. So as you can see it's basically been a non-stop blowjob to Uncle Sam from my end.

Incidentally, @James Arryn you never did answer me. Do you believe that there is a moral equivalency between the US military and a group like Al-Qaeda or ISIS? Because most of this shit has come in response to my contention of that claim. You've been presenting the death toll as if that contradicts my points, but you seem to not want to actually say that there is no moral distinction between the two groups.

[James Arryn]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, that's my point man.  It's the Jack Bauer question.  Frankly, I'm surprised the numbers are as low as they are.

Eh, I think I see which path you’re going down, but benefit of the doubt, so please expand. And...low? Canada freaked out when polls peaked at almost 33%, and the UK when it hit 29%. A majority supporting torture is...not low. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

Eh, I think I see which path you’re going down, but benefit of the doubt, so please expand. And...low? Canada freaked out when polls peaked at almost 33%, and the UK when it hit 29%. A majority supporting torture is...not low. 

Don't give me that bullshit on Canada and the UK.  EVERYONE is afraid of people that don't look like them.  The more people come in that don't look like them, the more they're gonna be pissed off at their government.  That's how it works - for every country - and why I don't give a shit about the self-righteous ideological meanders of some Canadian.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Don't give me that bullshit on Canada and the UK.  EVERYONE is afraid of people that don't look like them.  The more people come in that don't look like them, the more they're gonna be pissed off at their government.  That's how it works - for every country - and why I don't give a shit about the self-righteous ideological meanders of some Canadian.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Lol. Yeah, we’re pretty clear. 

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Lol. Yeah, we’re pretty clear. 

You say that, but I don't think it's true.  In similar news, so Schumer wants to rename the Russell building after McCain.  Does anybody know who Dick Russell was?  He was a racist motherfuck, aye, but without him preventing a cloture vote, there's no 64 CRA, no 65 VRA, and, frankly, no LBJ to speak of.  It's an interesting tradeoff, to say the least.

 

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Don't give me that bullshit on Canada and the UK.  EVERYONE is afraid of people that don't look like them.  The more people come in that don't look like them, the more they're gonna be pissed off at their government.  That's how it works - for every country - and why I don't give a shit about the self-righteous ideological meanders of some Canadian.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No no, Canada and the UK are clearly utopias if peace and have never done nothing wrong.

[Bonnot OG]

Lol some Americans really are incapable of accepting criticism that talks about how truly horrible the US is, it's foreign policy is, and how Americans are. 
It's funny and sad.

[Darth Richard II]

25 minutes ago, Bonnot OG said:

Lol some Americans really are incapable of accepting criticism that talks about how truly horrible the US is, it's foreign policy is, and how Americans are. 
It's funny and sad.

Back at ya, buddy.

[Bonnot OG]

https://triad-city-beat.com/climate-violence-students-set-stage-clashes-unc/
White supremacists are talking about murdering students at UNC for tearing down a Confederate statue.
 

 

[mormont]

[mod] This thread has been getting heated and there are too many personal comments. Cool it, folks. [/mod]

[Martell Spy]

Smile, baby.

Ivanka Trump Smiles With Pastor Who Thinks Marriage Equality Is Satan’s Work

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ivanka-trump-smiles-with-pastor-who-thinks-marriage-equality-is-satans-work?ref=home

Quote

 

It was an evening that featured a room full of LGBT prejudice and hatred, and in the photographs Ivanka Trump, alleged one-time supporter of LGBT equality, looked like she was enjoying every second.

Jim Garlow, senior pastor of Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, California, had the most pictorially successful evening at President Trump’s dinner for around 100 evangelical leaders held in the White House’s State Dining Room.

 

 

[Morpheus]

Beto O’Rourke is polling within 1 point of Ted Cruz

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/403786-poll-cruz-leads-orourke-by-one-point-in-texas-senate-race?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I am not putting a lot of faith in Texas doing a good thing, but anything which gives Ted Cruz anxiety is a good thing.

[Mexal]

12 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Beto O’Rourke is polling within 1 point of Ted Cruz

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/403786-poll-cruz-leads-orourke-by-one-point-in-texas-senate-race?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I am not putting a lot of faith in Texas doing a good thing, but anything which gives Ted Cruz anxiety is a good thing.

Beto is running a great campaign, seems genuine and is in a state where getting people to vote has been an issue in the past (suppression and indifference). He has a shot though and that's something. Seeing Ted Cruz lose in Texas would make my year.

[Maithanet]

21 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Beto is running a great campaign, seems genuine and is in a state where getting people to vote has been an issue in the past (suppression and indifference). He has a shot though and that's something. Seeing Ted Cruz lose in Texas would make my year. 

It would be pretty astonishing if the Democrats won Texas and lost Florida, and it could happen. 

[Morpheus]

The GOP primary in Arizona today is a parade of crazy.

[Rippounet]

11 hours ago, DMC said:

Explain and involve yourself. 

Well sure, I can do that, though I really dunno whether it'll do more good than harm.

Anyway... So a discussion bloomed over whether the late Senator McCain should be seen as human or not. And somehow, it moved on to how we should see war veterans generally speaking, which is something I personally find slightly more interesting.
From a moral perspective, it's a highly loaded question, because it involves two moral frameworks that are often mutually exclusive. Which is, I think what @James Arryn was kinda trying to show.
The first moral framework is that of the nation. From a nationalist perspective, someone who is willing to risk their life for their country's interests is clearly good. They are to be respected, praised, glorified even. This is why McCain was called a "war hero" - while Trump tried to deny him the title. Similarly, this is why the whole "flag" thing was such an issue.
The second one is the universalist-humanist one according to which war itself is evil, and there is no glory to be found in it, just pain, destruction, and human misery. According to this framework, there is no such thing as a war "hero." Most soldiers instead are victims of their country's leaders' delusions, and a few will be complicit.
I'm simplifying a bit, but I'm sure everyone will get the point. Now, if we're talking about the US, I think an interesting example of someone moving from one framework to the other would be Ron Kovic and his book Born on the Fourth of July.
By now, I'm sure you've gathered that I am myself firmly in the second framework. Since my childhood was spent in three different countries (one of them being the US), I find it very difficult to have a purely nationalist perspective. I sort of understand why people who have "served" their country would be seen as "good guys" in a vague abstract way, a bit like I see weird people who put pineapple on their pizza*.
As for McCain, well he poses a minor moral conundrum. He was very clearly a victim in Vietnam, but then he became one of his country's leaders and advocated for more wars. So he was like an anti-Kovic, and I'll daresay anyone considering his political career in any kind of positive light is very clearly an American nationalist much more than a humanist.
And if I go back to what James was trying to say, I think he was pointing out that whenever conflicts between the two moral frameworks arise in the American public sphere, there is a marked tendency to favor the first one.
Now I wouldn't say this is rare or unique**. But it's really obvious from the outside, when one looks at the way Americans talk of war and war veterans. And it's obvious again when seeing the defensiveness that appears whenever the issue is raised. The problem being, of course, that within the second framework an imperialist power will always be bad, and that no amount of rhetorical (or even real) defense of human rights or democracy will ever compensate for the human misery that it inflicts upon the world. But this is an "inconvenient truth" I think, and it's generally considered pedantic and bad mannered to raise it with Americans.

*Of course, pineapple on pizza is innocuous. Nationalism isn't.
**Arguably we recently did have an exchange in which I chose the first framework over the second, though of course, I don't quite see it that way. ^^

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

It would be pretty astonishing if the Democrats won Texas and lost Florida, and it could happen. 

Yea, Nelson is probably in the worst situation of all the defending Dems which is nuts to me. Rick Scott sucks.

[S John]

2 hours ago, Morpheus said:

Beto O’Rourke is polling within 1 point of Ted Cruz

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/403786-poll-cruz-leads-orourke-by-one-point-in-texas-senate-race?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I am not putting a lot of faith in Texas doing a good thing, but anything which gives Ted Cruz anxiety is a good thing.

They are supposed to have a few televised debates coming up soon.  I'm hoping for a Kennedy / Nixon moment where everyone's like.. who is this nice young man?  And who is that fucking troll that keeps arguing with him?!  

But Beto has run a pretty solid campaign.  I take everything with a grain of salt because I live in Austin which is full of musicians, potheads, hippies, university students, tech nerds, and California transplants so it is not the best place to get your finger on the pulse of the state.  Not that long ago Austin was all excited about getting Wendy Davis as the next Governor of Texas but statewide she got totally smashed by Abbot.  However, O'Rourke has hit the road pretty hard.  He visited all 254 Texas counties, which is a huge feat in itself and he's running one of those 'no PACs' campaigns.  So there's a good bit of overall excitement about him.  I was recently visiting my fiance's aunt and uncle out in a rural county in the Hill Country and they were positively gushing about the fact that Beto came and they got to meet him.  So, who knows, maybe just having shown up some of these places will be enough to make it interesting.

[Zorral]

When it comes to dehumanizing, seeing an enormous swathe of human beings as less than human, as animals even, ask women around the world about this, going back, o say, a few thousand years maybe, before saying the dehumanizing isn't something that human beings do easily.  It goes on on this very forum not infrequently, in fact, though perhaps unconsciously, because still in the minds' eyes of almost all the people posting, the defaul image of what is human is adult, white male -- even if a gay man, and still male, even when a man of color.  Not all of us, of course, but the majority of us.

This entire biz of McCain being claimed as 'ours' by every side that claims moral superiority over all others is sickening, particularly when the man himself was not morally superior in himself in many if not almost all conditions and cases.  He was a racist, a classist; he certainly never believed this country belonged to anyone but rich white males of certain sorts of heritage. More than that, he's lauded as a war hero of an unjustified war that wasn't ever even officially declared by the US, in an action that was truly despicable by this nation.  This is the elephant in the room with McCain that nobody talks about still. This determination to divorce his condition as POW from the war itself is reminiscent of nothing so much as the Glorious Lost Causism.  In terms of US history and its determined mythology, this is no accident.

Schumer trying to re-name for McCain a senate building already named for a bigot and racist, isn't helping anything.  But, you know, Schumer the asshole will always be Schumer the asshole while telling any who disagree with him to sit down shut the eff up because HE is HE and telling you what to think and HE always knows best (while getting his own pockets filled, never fear!).

Then the orange nazi, enraged by the endless tsunami of gushing tribute to McCain on HIS tv, having the flag pulled back up like he pulls up his pull up pants, then folding again when everyone around him is telling him how bad it looks -- which position of the orange nazi is more pathetically childish?

This is what this nation is presenting for the rest of the world to respect.  It's shameful, from every angle, and from everyone, including in so too many way, the central excuse for it.  Political football -- this is some of the grossest this nation has played yet.

Then DMC refusing to admit what even his o so beloved, endlessly manipulatable stats give him, but in a rage demands that the US and its voters cannot be criticized for evil actions and crimes is that the US is a superpower, and that they don't even by a very large percentage believe that doing wrong is right?  Such a superpower the US is! bogged down as it is in winless wars it has started all through the Middle East for years and years -- wars that the US itself has caused when the Busherolas rushed into Iraq on lies as there was no justification -- the orange nazi threatening war, nuclear war yet -- throughout the world, including South America -- destroying the economy and the environment and trade?  The one thing empires do is week to protect and expand trade.  Then propagating racism, bigotry, cruelty, encouraging the ill-treatment of women throughout in tandem with warmongering.  We're goddamned pathetic excuse for a superpower.  Which breaks my heart.  Because we had and still have everything to be so much better, and maybe even the best.  But we're cycling down the tubes to the historic abyss are all the lost forgotten empires, that blazed for moment and then disappeared without a trace.