Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Both Kevan and Jaime recognized Cersei was not fit to rule and see the damage Cersei is doing to her (and their) House.  She sends Jaime away and leaves Kevan with no part to play whatsoever so he leaves too.  Hard to see why they should be her stooges given how irresponsible she has become and how little heed she pays to their counsel.

But it is not their place to do that. Cersei is the Queen Regent and the Lady of Casterly Rock now. She has every right to expect her family to stand with her, not against her, nor do any of them have a right to dictate terms to her. Not in relation to the government of the Realm nor in relation to the standing of House Lannister - which is she now, and certainly not Kevan or Jaime.

Cersei has also not shown her incompetence up to this point, nor does the guy who judges Cersei's capabilities best - Tyrion - see her as a failure.

Cersei only makes as severe mistakes as she does because she is not surrounded by trusted allies and friends. She certainly shares part of the blame for choosing problematic advisers but originally she wanted good advisers from the family.

The idea that Mace Tyrell or Mathis Rowan would have been good Hands is not very convincing in light of the Tyrell plot to murder Joffrey. Cersei is right to mistrust them.

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Look, this thread was about Sansa, how about you stop threadjacking?

I didn't start the Cersei thing.

And I don't hate Sansa.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Harrenhal wasn't 'a war zone'. It was held by the men of the king whose sister Arya Stark happens to be. I'd agree with her doing what she did in a battlefield or a place which she believed to a battlefield. Note I never fault(ed) her for the stableboy. That was self-defense in a war zone situation. The same the way she dealt with the Tickler and the others in the inn.

Arya could have prevented hanging out with the Brave Companions by telling Roose Bolton who she was. It would have changed things. By killing one of his men she risked her own life - never mind who she actually was - along with the lives of her friends. Without Nymeria and her pack they would have caught her. And then they wouldn't have listened to anything she said.

And as you point out - Dareon, insurance guy, and even Raff are completely different categories. That's Arya breaking the law in a place where there is neither war nor the shadow of war.

I don't think it is a good idea to expect children like Arya to reintegrate well in a peaceful civil society. War and violence have become their very life, and they are not likely to revert back to 'normal mode' without proper treatment and therapy - which simply isn't there in Westeros. This is a problem with a realistic 'happy ending' for Arya. It would be very difficult for George to make us believe she is going to settle down to become a proper member of a post-war society.

The Riverlands were a war zone that Arya was trying to navigate. Harrenhal was just a place she was dumped by vicious men. 

All you say about her decisions and mistakes may be true, and I may agree. But we're adults and have lived in Westeros a long time. She's a traumatised nine year old.

 

[Mindrot]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nay, they do not. There are countless precedents against that, most notably all the people who actually got their tongues ripped out without a proper trial.

It is certainly an ugly way to punish somebody, but it is a reality in a medieval society.

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Man, if I have an official function in the society I live and if said society is a medieval monarchy without silly stuff like due process and right to appeal and all that, I do not commit crimes if I command the execution of people I consider to be traitors. That's just how it is. There is a difference there - like in any society - between people acting in the name of the state or government and those who do not.

More exoneration for your girl.  Its funny that Robert is not given any such consideration in his actions.  He is just a brutal rapist...

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei is the one acts in the name and on behalf of the government and the king, and Arya is just a little serial killer.

LOL, no. Queens are not legally required to be fertile. And while Westeros does not acknowledge marital rape this doesn't change that Cersei was raped by her husband. It is irrelevant what her duties in your rape apologist mind are - the crucial thing is that she was raped by the fat drunkard, and that this affected and shaped her personality.

Cersei acts for herself, that is it.  

Queens are not legally required to be fertile?  How are they to even know a fertile woman from non if most new wives are suppose to be virgins?  Nice try at evasion.  It is Westeros law that Queens bear royal heirs, that is the entire point of their existence as Queen (if there is a King).  I see you love clinging to this lie about him being a fat drunkard.  He was Warrior-King Robert, who made Cersei wet (her own words).  You also like to keep trying attribute her evil and sadistic nature these brutal rapes she endured at Roberts hands, yet we see SO MUCH EVIDENCE of malevolence even before she ever meets Robert, which you try to chalk up to a rough childhood?  Your girl?

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is perfectly clear when she repeats Robert's abusive and rapist behavior when having sex with Taena. That's the whole point of that scene. To show how her life at the side of Robert the Rapist affected and changed.

LoL, I guess we can assume at some point before she was 7 someone tried to twist her dick off, thats why she does it to Tyrion the infant.  Just a vicious circle of violence and abuse (do not mention that Tyrion would have suffered far far far more abuse during his growing up days, yet he gets no sympathy or exoneration for it.  He is just a evil monster murder rapist like all the other men).  Robert the Rapist is such a great name, really drives to the heart of the character there, such a troll.   Also that is not the whole point of that scene, the scene is there to show that even someone who has done nothing but be a companion, a friend, and a confidant gets no love from Cersei, just gets raped.  Lol.  Your girl.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A Cersei not married to this rapist would never have had any inclination or reason to basically repeat the thing she suffered when sleeping with Taena.

Guess she was also pushed down a well and murdered when she was younger, clearly there is no other explanation for why she treats Melara like she does.  Your girl.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What Cersei deserves and what she is and in whose name she acts are different things. Of course she doesn't deserve to be Queen Regent, nor do her bastards deserve to wear crowns. But they do.

But what she deserves speaks directly to her character, which is evil, sadistic and self centered.  Your girl.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, perhaps he didn't give a rat's ass about his mother. Just as he didn't give a rat's ass about Bran (unlike Cersei, who did not want him to try to kill him - she wanted him to allow him to fall on his own, which is a difference) or his own children. Jaime is the one who completely revolves around himself. He isn't even particularly sad or distraught after his own father is slain by the brother he, the moron, has let loose. Nor has the graces to actually take responsibility for his crime there.

Lol, I think you are remembering this incorrectly, Jaime sighs and says "The things I do for love" when he pushes Bran out of the window.  Remember that Jaime loves Cersei, and has said before that they should just tell everyone and be damn the consequences.  But your Girl wants to keep her Power, so Bran must die.  Jaime "kills" Bran for Cersei "The things I do for love".  Your interpretation of Jaime is flawed also, his life revolved around Cersei, the woman he loved.  And later we see that he truly cares for Brienne and other characters as his arc progresses.  

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No. You said it is the function of a queen to produce heirs. That means she has no right to say no to sexual intercourse to her royal husband which means she either has to want to have sex with him or she has to allow him to have sex with her - which is rape when she doesn't want it to happen and only does so when she commanded by him.

She has a right to say "no, not tonight" but to deny her husband, the King, FOREVER?  No she does not have that right, certainly not a single person in Westeros would think she had to right to deny Robert ever having sex with her.  I only bring that up because you have used common Westeros law as an argument for why Cersei is not a monster just for the amount of tongues she has ordered ripped out.  Moral question that I know you wont answer:  How many marital rapes equal one tongue being ripped out?  You have to choose for yourself between these options, count how many marital rapes you would endure to keep your tongue from being ripped out.  Your girl is a monster with a pile of tongues following her around like gown train.  

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sansa, too, would have been raped if Tyrion had had sex with her. She didn't want to marry the man, and she most certainly never wanted to have sex with him.

Tyrion is a monster who rapes women according to you, so he must have raped Sansa as well right? many many times?  Oh never once? Oh....And what prevents these rapes from happening?  Tyrions nature NOT TO RAPE.  Has Tyrion done terrible things? Yes.  Is his nature monstrous?  Not nearly as much as Cersei's as evidenced by the mountain of horrendous shit that Cersei is responsible for.  

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That has nothing to do with our argument. Nobody ripped Cersei's tongue out at this point. But she was raped.

I just pointed out that being cruel to a hideous child which caused the death of your mother isn't exactly something that makes you 'a monster' if you are just 6-7 years old. Children at that age see themselves at the center of the universe. They want what they want and they do not like what they don't like. And it is completely understandable that Cersei doesn't like this wretched creature - especially since that's a society where people like Tyrion do not exactly see eye to eye with people of 'normal size'.

Again you lie about the child, there was nothing hideous about Tyrion, he was just a smaller version of a baby.  Nice try though.  Also to say that Tyrion caused Johannas death is a bit much, wasnt it Tywin that impregnated her?  Tyrion had no control over the circumstances of his birth.  Also had no ability to defend himself from his monstrous sister.  "Completely understandable that Cersei DOESNT LIKE this wretched creature"  Lol, what a nice way of saying how Cersei feels about Tyrion THE INFANT.  Your girl.

[Mindrot]

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This line of argument is rather troubling.

You’re confusing two different things here. Something can be legal in a society, and still considered morally wrong. It was legal when Aerys burned Rickard Stark alive, but it was still morally wrong, and every sane character in the books considers it thus. Similarly, marital rape may not be illegal in the 7K, but that doesn’t mean it’s considered to be morally justified. Cersei certainly doesn’t consider it to be fine, and Robert was clearly ashamed of what he did in the morning. Would he have been ashamed if it was considered a fine thing to do by most people? Can you imagine Ned or Ser Barristan considering it to be a good thing?

It would be considered morally wrong for a queen not to provide heirs for her King in Westeros.  CERSEI is the problem in this marriage, not Robert.  Please answer this question:  What was Cersei's obligation as queen?  Do you think it is fair that she deny Robert heirs?  

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Marital rape was outlawed in Britain in 1991. Do you think that if it occurred in 1990 everyone would have thought it was ok? Don’t be absurd.

I really hate it that we even have to have this debate to be honest. It doesn’t matter if someone is a woman’s husband, or king, or what society, in whatever period they happen to be in – they have no right to force themselves on anyone.

I agree 100%, no one has a "right" to force sex on someone, but this statement is made 100% in a vacuum.  Lets try to apply it to the actual case we are talking about:  What were Roberts options if Cersei always denies him?  HE HAS TO HAVE HEIRS, it is super important in this world that there be a stable transition of power, which is sometimes hard to do even with heirs, but for sure (as we see in the later books) chaos and bloodshed are the rulers of the realm when there is no stable King.  Are all the common folk that die or starve or are injured during these times of war, are their trials and tribulations less than a woman who was given a KINGDOM, and is expected to provide heirs for receiving this Kingdom

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Cersei didn’t want to marry Robert, she was forced by her father to do it. She didn’t want children with Robert, she was forced to do so. That’s rape.

Robert did not want to marry Cersei either

[Clegane'sPup]

38 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

What was Cersei's obligation as queen?

As King Bob's queen in Westeros world Cersei's obligation was to procreate. Provide the King with a male heir.

All the other horseshyte aside, next question.

What part do 21st century women/females/girls not understand? Strange as it may sound as late as the 1970's females could be sterilized without consent but in the 21st century abortion is hotly contested.

 

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Mindrot said:

I agree 100%, no one has a "right" to force sex on someone, but this statement is made 100% in a vacuum.  Lets try to apply it to the actual case we are talking about:  What were Roberts options if Cersei always denies him?  HE HAS TO HAVE HEIRS, i

Robert does have heirs even with no sons in the form of his brothers-should he die without siring an heir, the crown would pass to Stannis and his line, then Renly and his. And to be clear he doesn’t stop raping Cersi after she apparently has given him 3 children(two healthy boys), or ever uses the justification of trying to get another child as his justification for raping his wife. Seriously, you might as well say Aerys was acting in the interest of the greater when savagely raped his wife. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert does have heirs even with no sons in the form of his brothers-should he die without siring an heir, the crown would pass to Stannis and his line, then Renly and his. And to be clear he doesn’t stop raping Cersi after she apparently has given him 3 children(two healthy boys), or ever uses the justification of trying to get another child as his justification for raping his wife. Seriously, you might as well say Aerys was acting in the interest of the greater when savagely raped his wife. 

What does this have to do with Sansa?

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert does have heirs even with no sons in the form of his brothers-should he die without siring an heir, the crown would pass to Stannis and his line, then Renly and his.

Okay, R & C & J have heirs. Poor ole Bob don't know his wife has been doing the wild thawg with her brother. What's that word ummm cuckolded? Let us not forget that other word when brother and sister do the wild thawg.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And to be clear he doesn’t stop raping Cersi after she apparently has given him 3 children(two healthy boys), or ever uses the justification of trying to get another child as his justification for raping his wife.

Such an explosive word rape is. Do you actually know when the marital rape law came to be the law of the land?

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Seriously, you might as well say Aerys was acting in the interest of the greater when savagely raped his wife.  

Well, just my opinion but martin's books are filled with rape shyte. All kinds of rape shyte.

Since people wanna carry this forward how many times do you think your mother or girlfriend or wife rolled her eyes and thought go ahead lets get this over with?

Edit: iffm' ya be doubting the violence of martin's ASOIAF let's think about Pia. Using the martin phrase do ya think Pia was fucked bloody?

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III     Someone had broken her nose and knocked out half her teeth. The girl fell at Jaime's feet when she saw him, sobbing and clinging to his leg with hysterical strength till Strongboar pulled her off. "No one will hurt you now," he told her, but that only made her sob the louder.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Books Sansa is one of my 3 favorites. Book One, she was really hard to digest but at the end of it, She came through. Some people seem to confuse the Books version with the TV show character. They are in fact, completely different in just about every way possible.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

I can't stand Sansa Stark.  She's too spoiled and too selfish.  She never held any appeal for me.  Even her chapters are a drag.  Hers and Jon's chapters were uninteresting to me.

[Guest]

What can I say. Hating Sansa unites the asoiaf fandom. There are a lot of people who hate her irrationally because they want her to be punished for "bullying" Arya, for calling Jon a bastard, and basically "doing nothing." They even charge her with the bulk of the blame/responsibility for her fool father's death, even though the author spreads the guilt to everyone. You can tell a Sansa hater if they exclude her from the "main five" and insist that she dies in the outline and will die in the story too. You can also tell a Sansa hater if they call her shallow and mean because she didn't sleep with Tyrion (how dare she?). Haters also insist that she's poisoning Sweetrobin or that she will stay in the Vale forever because she lost her wolf. You can also tell a Sansa hater if they belittle her feminine talents and are so fixated on war/conquest that they can't recognize how Alysanne is a proto-Sansa. If they don't outright hate Sansa, they dismiss her importance. Many folks think she's irrelevant or they say she makes no significant contributions to the narrative. If they don't hate Sansa, they don't understand her. They think her main purpose is to become a sex kitten in the Vale. Shippers see Sansa even meeting Jon as a threat to Sansan, Jonerys, Sanrion, and Jonarya, so she gets hate from all sides of the fandom. People have invested so much rage in attempting to discount, disparage, or downgrade this character that I think they might lose all purpose and meaning in life if Sansa does something that more "accomplished" characters cannot do--like, say, help take back Winterfell. My bet is she'd probably get hate from Stannis stans at that point. Thankfully the hate has lessened considerably because of the show. But there are still some bitter Arya stans who insist Sansa "stole" Arya's storyline which doesn't even make sense. They also make childish memes like this and send it to Sophie Turner for her reaction (luckily she nailed the reply).

A lot of this hate is grounded in not understanding her purpose to the narrative. She's not supposed to be a queen by herself--she's in training as a queen consort. She's a Cersei and a Dany foil. She's a sleeper underdog protagonist who will make big waves late in the game. She is also the embodiment of GRRM's main theme that he constantly explores in all his fiction: 

Quote

“Love and loneliness may be among my favorite themes, but the all-time champion to date has got to be reality’s search and destroy mission against romance, a subject that I’ve turned to again and again” - GRRM, Prologue, Songs of Stars and Shadows, 1977

“The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real … for a moment at least … that long magic moment before we wake. . . Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true? . . . We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think. To taste strong spices and hear the songs the sirens sang. There is something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us. . ." - GRRM, "On Fantasy," 1996

She is the main character for GRRM to explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. If people's endgame predictions for her involve her never finding love, ending up single and alone, never reuniting with her siblings, or punished because she dared to dream in romance, then you can have faith in the knowledge that THEY ARE WRONG. 

[Nevets]

I think Sansa is disliked because she is perceived as being weak and passive, a sentiment I used to share.  These are characteristics that are quite unpopular with most Fantasy readers.  On re-reads I have come to appreciate her inner strength and her intellect and powers of observation. 

Another problem is that she is difficult to take in the first book, and first impressions can be everything.  Some readers simply can't let go of the disdain they feel for her in the first book, despite her obvious growth in the subsequent volumes

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is not their place to do that. Cersei is the Queen Regent and the Lady of Casterly Rock now. She has every right to expect her family to stand with her, not against her, nor do any of them have a right to dictate terms to her. Not in relation to the government of the Realm nor in relation to the standing of House Lannister - which is she now, and certainly not Kevan or Jaime.

Cersei has also not shown her incompetence up to this point, nor does the guy who judges Cersei's capabilities best - Tyrion - see her as a failure.

Cersei only makes as severe mistakes as she does because she is not surrounded by trusted allies and friends. She certainly shares part of the blame for choosing problematic advisers but originally she wanted good advisers from the family.

The idea that Mace Tyrell or Mathis Rowan would have been good Hands is not very convincing in light of the Tyrell plot to murder Joffrey. Cersei is right to mistrust them.

Well this is quite the rosy fiction of "Good Queen Cersei and her wise Councillors" being sabotaged by family disloyalty causing said family members to refuse to become wise Councillors leading her to CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE sycophants, adventurers and weak fools she believed she could dominate and treat as pawns - Auranne Waters, Qyburn, Harrys Swift, Giles Rosby.

She has no automatic right to be Queen Regent, Robert's Will did not confer that on her, her 14 year old son appointed her as such at her direction (he is of course now dead) and her own family see how bad her judgment is.  Her problems don't start with Jaime and Kevan's refusals to be her stooges - and that is what she expects of them - they started with her moulding Joffrey into an awful person and seeking to rule through Tommen in an equally cruel and capricious way because she wants to wield power for herself.  And that is what her family see and are aghast at how she goes about doing it.

Kevan never proposed Mace - he proposes either Randal Tarly or Matthis Rowan as a way of making one of these powerful Lords more her man than Mace's and checking the concentration of too much power in Tyrell hands.

[Angel Eyes]

You guys can blame me for taking this thread in the Cersei direction. It’s just that I don’t want Sansa to become another Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well this is quite the rosy fiction of "Good Queen Cersei and her wise Councillors" being sabotaged by family disloyalty causing said family members to refuse to become wise Councillors leading her to CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE sycophants, adventurers and weak fools she believed she could dominate and treat as pawns - Auranne Waters, Qyburn, Harrys Swift, Giles Rosby.

But it is plan C to do that - plan A was Jaime, and plan B was Kevan. I don't fault her that she is pissed after how she is treated by those men who are both failures insofar as the cause of House Lannister is concerned. Kevan didn't do much to win the war, and Jaime helped to cause it and abandoned his sister and children to the enemy because he wanted to save/free/avenge the dwarf who would eventually kill their son (as they believe) and their father.

7 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

She has no automatic right to be Queen Regent, Robert's Will did not confer that on her, her 14 year old son appointed her as such at her direction (he is of course now dead) and her own family see how bad her judgment is.  Her problems don't start with Jaime and Kevan's refusals to be her stooges - and that is what she expects of them - they started with her moulding Joffrey into an awful person and seeking to rule through Tommen in an equally cruel and capricious way because she wants to wield power for herself.  And that is what her family see and are aghast at how she goes about doing it.

Robert's will is irrelevant. It was in the interest of House Lannister that King Joffrey succeeded Robert Baratheon, and not one of Robert's brother. No Lannister ever contests that. She certainly wasn't the best of mothers to Joffrey, but it isn't her fault alone how he turned out. And her overall approach of allowing the boy a part in his government is pretty sound - it is exactly the same Catelyn does to ensure Robb is not seen as weakling and as a mamma's boy by his lords and subjects.

Cersei likes the fact that she is finally in charge now - and that's completely understandable. She was the pawn of various men her entire life. But she only tries to do the best for Tommen. Even her desire to continue to rule after Tommen has come of age is based on her wishes to protect her child there. She correctly sees that Tommen doesn't have the mettle to be a good king. She should do more to help him acquire the necessary skills, but this cannot completely change the boy's character. Tommen is most definitely not at the point where he can be included in his own government. And it is not just Cersei's approach. Jaime reduces him to a completely powerless pawn, too, with his command to the KG, and Kevan also keeps him out of everything once he takes the regency.

7 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Kevan never proposed Mace - he proposes either Randal Tarly or Matthis Rowan as a way of making one of these powerful Lords more her man than Mace's and checking the concentration of too much power in Tyrell hands.

Didn't Jaime suggest Mace at one point? I'm not sure. But he most definitely suggests Littlefinger as Hand, which shows how, well, stupid he is in the political field. Considering the insidiousness of Joffrey's murder it would actually be suicide to entrust a Tyrell man with power.

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

You guys can blame me for taking this thread in the Cersei direction. It’s just that I don’t want Sansa to become another Cersei.

She won't. She doesn't have children, doesn't have a twin-brother for a lover, isn't that determined to wield power.

However, her ways of manipulating/influencing people will likely be based, at least in part, on her female charms and wiles. This is a very patriarchal society and a minor girl cannot wield any power in her own right, even if she were recognized and acknowledged as the rightful Lady of Winterfell.

[Mindrot]

One issue that Sansa has to deal with is the fact that Arya's story is so much more compelling (certainly from a fantasy book perspective).  Sansa and Arya spend the first books showing their characteristics.  I always hated Sansa in the first book because she lied about the Arya/Mycah/Joff Situation and it cost Lady her life.  To me this was always a hard line that made me dislike her character for many books.  She started to grow on me when she finally got out of Kings Landing and begins to actually take some assertive control over her life (she could not really do this in KL, I do not fault her for that).  On the other hand Arya's story shows her to be unruly, tomboyish, but generally very good hearted.  She does not see Jon as just a bastard, she thinks of him as a brother also, unlike Sansa.  After Ned gets the Chop, Aryas story takes a turn into truly great fiction.  Her harrowing tale of survival from KL to the temple of the faceless men is some of the most compelling and interesting reading I have every enjoyed.  I remember when I would get to the end of a POV chapter I had to physically restrain myself from skipping ahead to find out when the next Arya chapter was, it was great.  Sansa's story takes a long time to develop, and I think that is also one of reasons she gets a lot of hate.  

[Crona]

She’s alright to me. Not my favorite but not the worst. I don’t why people have to explain why she gets hate. It’s just an opinion.

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is plan C to do that - plan A was Jaime, and plan B was Kevan.

Aurane Waters and Qyburn have nothing to do with Kevan or Jaime not propping up her narcissitic power trip, nor does burning down The Tower of the Hand out of caprice.  These are the sort of things she does because she has the power to do so and chooses to on a whim.  She does them because she wants power for herself and is drunk on that power.  This is her nature and she did not fall from a state of grace without her loyal councilors - she ignores Jaime's advice not to appoint Aurane Waters and both Jaime and Kevan's advice.

Jaime is quite happy to be LC of TOMMEN'S KG and to work with Cersei in establishing their son's rule but because he rejects her sexual overtures in White Sword Tower she sends him off to Riverrun.  She sends him away.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't fault her that she is pissed

Ridiculous.  Emotion before reason is not a way to rule or manage powerful allies.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

after how she is treated by those men who are both failures insofar as the cause of House Lannister is concerned. Kevan didn't do much to win the war, and Jaime helped to cause it and abandoned his sister and children to the enemy because he wanted to save/free/avenge the dwarf who would eventually kill their son (as they believe) and their father.

I don't even know where to start with this.  Kevan and Jaime are too of House Lannister's biggest assets and it's two best leaders, both militarily and by political experience.  Far from failures.  TYWIN started the war after his son was kidnapped, not Jaime.  Jaime did not abandon his sister to the enemy, he left KL and turned up leading a Lannister army at the Golden tooth and Siege of Riverrun.   You are doing that thing you can't help doing, of making arbitrary and unreasonable arguments to try and deflect from the weakness of your central proposition - that Cersei would have made a good ruler if only Jaime and Kevan had got on board with the programme.

Newsflash: she would not have and the fault for her misrule is hers not theirs. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert's will is irrelevant.

The point is she has no automatic right to be Queen Regent, it was not a position conferred on her except by a minor who technically has no ability to do so.  Tyrion was sent to KL to prevent her cocking things up and to rule in Tywin's place and Tywin had no intention of allowing her to continue to rule and she had no power while he was alive.  Only after his death does she get her hands back on the reins.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

She certainly wasn't the best of mothers to Joffrey, but it isn't her fault alone how he turned out.

Nah, it's a mix of nature and nurture.  She could have reined him in but she indulged him and taught him that "a strong king does what he wants" [sic].  His cruelty comes from her and Jaime concludes that he needs to get Tommen away from her before she turns him into another Joffrey.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And her overall approach of allowing the boy a part in his government is pretty sound - it is exactly the same Catelyn does to ensure Robb is not seen as weakling and as a mamma's boy by his lords and subjects.

Allowing him a part in government and allowing him to issue capricious and cruel pronouncements as a mockery of justice are not the same thing.  There was a "sharp lesson" coming his way from Tywin before events intervened.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei likes the fact that she is finally in charge now - and that's completely understandable. She was the pawn of various men her entire life.

I imagine the Blue Bard likes it too, or Falyse Stokeworth maybe?

She reprises the same role as Theon as "The Prince of Winterfell", a vain, callous and selfish individual who only wants power for what it conveys upon him in terms of prestige, privilege and power and despises or brutalises those under his rule if they fail to please him or sufficiently fawn upon him and increasingly rages over time that he is thwarted from achieving his goals by ingrates and fools, when said goals are simply the fulfillment of his own wishes, however capricious or unreasonable.

There's even a symmetry between Theon raping Kyra in Ned Stark's bed to enjoy the power trip of being the Lord he would like to be (and be acknowledged to be) and Cersei's scene with Taena Merryweather - "You're hurting me", "It's not me, it's the wine" - where she enjoys the sexual power and "rights" she has as she gets to replace Robert not only as top dog as Queen Regent but in the bedchamber too.

Cersei does indeed enjoy the fact that she is in charge and that is why she ignores Jaime or Kevan's counsel and attempts to restrain her bigger missteps, she simply wants to indulge her ability to make decisions.

You might also want to consider that this leads her into an open conflict with the Lannister's biggest supporters, the Tyrells, largely because of the childhood prophecy that her power would be taken away from her by a younger and more beautiful queen, which in turn causes her to identify Margaery as a threat and an enemy to be destroyed.  But where does that end?  Surely any bride for Tommen would fill that role as Cersei ages?

Looks like GRRM has Snow White and the Evil Queen in mind when he introduced that into the story.  Sorry if that's too deterministic for you, with Cersei playing the role of evil queen and any potential bride of Tommen a quasi-Snow White, but with Cersei seeing any potential younger and more beautiful queen as a rival/threat it really does set her up to want to hold on to power for herself at the cost of her children, her House or the Kingdom's well-being.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But she only tries to do the best for Tommen. Even her desire to continue to rule after Tommen has come of age is based on her wishes to protect her child there. She correctly sees that Tommen doesn't have the mettle to be a good king. She should do more to help him acquire the necessary skills, but this cannot completely change the boy's character.

No, she projects her wishes and her desires onto Tommen and effectively airbrushes him out of the picture.  After he comes of age?  She intends to hold onto power because she wants power, not for his sake.  Making him whip his whipping boy himself and threatening to have the boy killed unless Tommen did the whipping - and drew blood to boot - is nothing to do with instilling in him the mettle to be a good king but punishing him for disobeying her and reinforcing her need to be obeyed and feel that she has power in all things and over everyone around her.  It's about teaching him his place as beneath her thumb, not training him to rule in his own right.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tommen is most definitely not at the point where he can be included in his own government. And it is not just Cersei's approach. Jaime reduces him to a completely powerless pawn, too, with his command to the KG, and Kevan also keeps him out of everything once he takes the regency.

Tommen is 8.  No one is expecting him to be involved in anything but ceremony.  The immediate point is her influence on him is unhealthy - as it was with Joffrey - and the larger point is she intends to wield power though him for at least a decade, possibly more as an overbearing mother conditioning a weak child to be under her thumb even in adulthood.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't Jaime suggest Mace at one point? I'm not sure. But he most definitely suggests Littlefinger as Hand, which shows how, well, stupid he is in the political field. Considering the insidiousness of Joffrey's murder it would actually be suicide to entrust a Tyrell man with power.

No. 

And LF fools a lot of people - we may have reader omniscience but that doesn't make the characters who lack it stupid .  LF appears to be a longstanding councilor who served the Lannisters well and due to his low birth presents no possible challenge if given more power.

And, no, giving power to a powerful Tyrell bannerman is designed to elevate them into independence from Mace and check his power by creating a replacement for the Florents  for him to be wary of.

[White Ravens]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You guys can blame me for taking this thread in the Cersei direction. It’s just that I don’t want Sansa to become another Cersei.

Nothing to worry about there.  They are entirely different personalities raised in entirely different environments.  Sansa was raised in a loving environment by her mother and father.  Cersei was raised without a mother by a man who doesn't know how to smile.

[Synaesthesia]

Because she's so naive. She falls for literally everyone's schemes and tricks, the Lannisters, the Tyrells, Littlefinger, Myranda etc.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, Mindrot said:

It would be considered morally wrong for a queen not to provide heirs for her King in Westeros.  CERSEI is the problem in this marriage, not Robert. 

I'd really recommend thinking this line of argument through. I don't think you're aware of how it's coming across.

It is considered the “duty” of women to provide children to men in that society. That is a wrong value. Yes, in most societies in human history, it was demanded of women that they provide sex when men demanded. That doesn’t mean women didn’t suffer under that system. Cersei may be required, by law and by culture, to provide sex to Robert; but that doesn’t stop it being rape.

It’s important we acknowledge the social context in order for us to understand why certain things happen, it doesn’t necessarily follow that we grant a pass for all behaviours that are considered fine in that context. For example – what Tywin unleashed on the Riverlands was both legally and culturally acceptable in Westros. He was acting on behalf of the Throne, and it was considered an acceptable part of war to ravage your opponents’ lands. Does that lessen the impact of such behaviour on the smallfolk? It would be absurd to suggest that.  

So yes, Cersei was required to provide heirs to Robert. She was required to have sex with him when it was demanded of her. The impact on her would still be devastating, whatever the social context.

Also, we clearly see in the books that Cersei believed what was done to her was wrong. She resented the idea that she should be married off to a man like Robert, and rebelled against the idea of being treated as a “brood mare”. That’s a point in her favour, whatever you think of her, not a point against her.  

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, Mindrot said:

Please answer this question:  What was Cersei's obligation as queen?  Do you think it is fair that she deny Robert heirs?

Of course I think it right that she deny Robert heirs. She has no obligation, in my opinion, to have children to or provide sex to to anyone she doesn’t want to.

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, Mindrot said:

Lets try to apply it to the actual case we are talking about:  What were Roberts options if Cersei always denies him?  HE HAS TO HAVE HEIRS, it is super important in this world that there be a stable transition of power

Again, really think through what you're saying - Robert had no choice but to rape her? Don't be ridiculous. And as others have said, he had heirs. He was still "claiming his rights" after the birth of three children. And he had two brothers.

You're ignoring what is actually written down in the books. At no point is it suggested that Robert forced himself on Cersei because he wanted heirs, as if it were some calmly thought out decision (as if that would make it better somehow). He got drunk and forced himself on her, "claiming his rights" - that's about power and entitlement, not a political decision.

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, Mindrot said:

Robert did not want to marry Cersei either

That's one of those comments that seems like a good point if you don't think about it too much. Yes, Robert wasn't keen on the marriage, but he had the power to refuse it. More importantly, he had the power within the marriage to treat her well. He didn't.

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:37 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Since people wanna carry this forward how many times do you think your mother or girlfriend or wife rolled her eyes and thought go ahead lets get this over with?

There's a world of difference between having sex when you don't really feel like it (which I think most people have experienced), and having it forced upon you. If you don't know the difference talk to a therapist about it, because I can't be bothered explaining the obvious.