Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Ghostlydragon]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

 

St. Tyrion was the perfect gentleman to Sansa unlike the books. That's what GRRM could have done if he wanted him to come off as a gentleman, but GRRM had him tell her to undress and grope her, then say damn her for not bending the knee.

 

I've often wondered if that scene had to be different in the show. Sophie Turner would have been 16 or 17 when that was filmed so there would have been limits on what could have been shown. 

Of course Tyrion might have been a gentleman even if she was 26 so who knows.

[Mystical]

2 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

I've often wondered if that scene had to be different in the show. Sophie Turner would have been 16 or 17 when that was filmed so there would have been limits on what could have been shown. 

Of course Tyrion might have been a gentleman even if she was 26 so who knows.

Even if she was legal or older by our modern day definition, he would have been a gentlemen. He is the saintliest of saints in the show. Not only would he not force Sansa into anything, he also wouldn't cheat on Shae.

What always grossed me out the most about the Sansa/Ramsey rape (other than the obvious multitude of reasons), was that it felt like in part as punishment for her not spreading her legs for Tyrion AT AGE 14 (or age 12 in the books). They had Ramsey, iirc, mention Tyrion in the rape scene despite the fact that (again iirc) LF and Roose (was Ramsey also there?) already had the conversation of her being a virgin previously. There was no reason to mention Tyrion again, absolutely none, since it didn't add any psychological torture to the situation which is what Ramsey loved to add. They had already reminded the audience of St. Tyrion not laying a hand on her, so there is no trauma there for Ramsey to make use of. So what was the point? It felt completely like punishment for the 14 year old not falling over herself to want to have Benioff's, sorry Tyrion's, magic cock.

[Le Cygne]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:35 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

I've often wondered if that scene had to be different in the show. Sophie Turner would have been 16 or 17 when that was filmed so there would have been limits on what could have been shown. 

Of course Tyrion might have been a gentleman even if she was 26 so who knows.

Yeah, this was not the only instance of the deification of St. Tyrion.

Sansa rejected Tyrion, so they made her seem stupid for doing so, since he's so perfect. Revenge of the Nerds. She WILL appreciate him.

They called her a stupid girl when she rejected St. Tyrion, then suddenly called her a hardened woman making a choice when it was time to rape her.

They made her honor Tyrion right before it happened, the implication, she should have stayed with him. Anything to glorify their self-insert.

And in the end, they made her honor Ramsay, too. Really it was thanking themselves.

Here are those quotes where they blamed her for what they made her do:

There's also all of this, all the reviews blasting them:

 

[Ghostlydragon]

What they did to Sansa was one of the worst things of all. The only way her in Winterfell ever could have worked would be for her to "make Ramsay hers." That would have been a huge surprise and shown how she has grown and perhaps had been learning from Margery as well. That could even have led to a darker Sansa, which is certainly possible in the Winds of Winter.

 

But no cos brutslisimg women, especially a woman in someone else's story is clearly better ☹

[Le Cygne]

There's nothing someone on her own could do. Olenna killed Joffrey to protect Margaery. Sansa needed protection, which the show bizarrely took away.

They called Ramsay a "badass" building him up as they reduced Sansa to swapable body parts and forced her into the most absurdly nonsensical plot.

Also, why not Arya as fake Arya. All Arya ever did with her training was bizarrely kill some Freys. That should have been Lady Stoneheart/Jaime/Brienne.

Cutting Lady Stoneheart and the Vale story was their undoing. All the displaced characters doing things they never would have done, or ultimately nothing at all.

Anyway it's been fun to trash them, and it's so easy to do. The show is trash.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There's nothing someone on her own could do. Olenna killed Joffrey to protect Margaery. Sansa needed protection, which the show bizarrely took away.

They called Ramsay a "badass" building him up as they reduced Sansa to swapable body parts and forced her into the most absurdly nonsensical plot.

Also, why not Arya as fake Arya. All Arya ever did with her training was bizarrely kill some Freys. That should have been Lady Stoneheart/Jaime/Brienne.

Cutting Lady Stoneheart and the Vale story was their undoing. All the displaced characters doing things they never would have done, or ultimately nothing at all.

Anyway it's been fun to trash them, and it's so easy to do. The show is trash.

My favourite was the Austin Film Festival, D & D's "Gerald Ratner Moment".  Ratner destroyed his company overnight when he bragged that his jewellery cost about the same as a Marks & Spencer sandwich, and lasted just as long.

D & D thought they were being funny when they described the show as a "ten year drunk party", and said they didn't understand the books, or the themes, and wanted to remove the fantasy elements. 

Disney were not amused, and fired them from Star Wars, a couple of days later.

[Lord Varys]

@Le Cygne

You think far too much as fan/reader of the books. They didn't care about Sansa or any other character or *hated it* what George did with them - they just did what they wanted with, period.

They wrote scenes for the actors, not the characters.

I mean, think about it as if you wanted to adapt something you don't care much about, don't really understand in great detail. You just do what you want and make it so that you like it. You don't bother with silly fan nonsense like 'What a character would do' or what a character would be about.

[Le Cygne]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

My favourite was the Austin Film Festival, D & D's "Gerald Ratner Moment".  Ratner destroyed his company overnight when he bragged that his jewellery cost about the same as a Marks & Spencer sandwich, and lasted just as long.

D & D thought they were being funny when they described the show as a "ten year drunk party", and said they didn't understand the books, or the themes, and wanted to remove the fantasy elements. 

Disney were not amused, and fired them from Star Wars, a couple of days later.

Such a display of entitlement, too. Good ole boys, basking in privilege.

They are hacks, they don't know how to tell stories. It was all about them.

It's telling what they changed from the books. Some day there will be classes in how it all went wrong. How not to adapt a book series.

They used to get book summaries at the start of each season. Picked and chose bits and pieces, and changed the things they didn't like.

The things they didn't like often revolved around anything unflattering to their self-insert, and they made changes accordingly.

They changed key scenes the author used to show women taking control of their own life. Dany (the wedding night), Cersei (the sept), and Sansa (the body swap).

Not so coincidentally, they took away from these women the same thing. Where the author wrote about the women making choices sexually, they did the opposite.

Like you said, they didn't care about the whys or the wherefores.

[Mystical]

I'd still love to know why there was no post-it on a HBO twitter before 5x06 aired where they warned the audience that they are about to rape a 15 year old in the episode. They felt the need to point out that Arya was 18 (which she was not even close to being at that point) before the episode with consensual sex in case people get triggered by....consensual sex? To make sure people knew she was legal in the eyes of US watchers? But they rape a 15 year old on screen and that doesn't warrant a heads up because...it wasn't graphically shown (we only heard it but didn't see it)?

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Not so coincidentally, they took away from these women the same thing. Where the author wrote about the women making choices sexually, they did the opposite.

It wasn't just sexual choices they took away from women and that just compounded the problem with their writing. They took a lot of female characters strengths away, their choices and actions.

Cat was simply reduced to being a mother, the evil witch who hurt Jonny boy and the irrational decisions a mother makes in the name of love (emotions). They took away the fact that she was the one who wanted Ned to become Hand and to make her daughter a goddamn queen in the process because it would advance her family. Instead she was begging Ned not to leave her and freaking rolled her eyes at Sansa expressing desire to become queen. During Rob's campaign, a lot of things she thought or said that were politically astute or helpful, were given to someone else (male characters).

With Sansa, I don't think they ever saw that she had any strengths or positive attributes at all. Her social IQ, education, charm, mental resilience even in the worst circumstances, her active role in her escape, her not kneeling...none of that was in the show. She was just a whiny, stupid girl that needed to be raped to become a worthwhile character. If they had done the Vale arc where we see Sansa in charge of the Eyrie, people wouldn't have had any problem with S7/8 Sansa who can run Winterfell. Instead these abilities were magically raped into her or something.

Cersei, their fave female character, was simply a soccer mom doing everything for her children. Instead of having a certifiable nutjob make dumb decisions we got a poor downtrodden woman that was touted as a villain despite never doing anything bad. Yes she wasn't a pleasant woman but all of her worst actions (killing Robert's bastards, giving people to Quyburn to torture etc.) were given to someone else or not in the show at all. The utter narcissist who saw both Jamie and her children as nothing more than extensions of her own narcissism.

The Tyrell women for whom the patriarchy strangely didn't exist at all. Arya and Brienne who were just guys in the wrong body who think girls are stupid and men shouldn't sound like bloody women. Then there is Ellaria 'revenge is stupid and pointless' Sand who seeks revenge against her killed Martell lover by killing off House Martell. And the Sandsnakes...oy vey.

Then you have Dany who said yes during her wedding night to Drogo (even though everything after was rape) and they changed it to rape. All of her acts where she uses violence were celebrated by the show, they were all 'yas queen' moments complete with epic music. Until men were making faces and raising objections and suddenly it's not good anymore. Especially in the later Seasons (aka when St. Tyrion entered her story) all of her actions were framed as wrong and she should listen to the mens. If she does what they say, she is good. If she doesn't, she is wrong. Or as Tyrion and Varys say, as long as she has them to tell her what to do, she will do fine as ruler. She constantly rewarded their incompetence and kept them on her team.

[Le Cygne]

HBO went for cheap shock with Bowed, Bent, and Broken. Viewers who looked for the label before the episode wouldn't have watched if it had been there. Other channels reliably do this, whether it's on camera or off camera.

Also to be clear, age doesn't matter, the label is about content. Starz is very good about this, they put up a label recently for a scene with 21 year old that was off camera. They also provided counseling info. As do other channels.

 

[Le Cygne]

The actors were completely confused. They had no clue what they were doing or why.

Most of the actors said they were disappointed: Emilia, Kit, Lena... NCW said when he asked about character motivation, they told him just shut up and do it.

Here are some of the experienced actors (I'll add more as I find them):

Stephen Dillane:

I’ve flicked it on to see if I could figure out what was going on, but I couldn’t. Liam Cunningham is so passionate about the show. He invests in it in a way I think is quite moving, but it wasn’t my experience. I was entirely dependent on Liam to tell me what the scenes were about — I didn’t know what I was doing until we’d finished filming and it was too late. The damage had been done. I thought no one would believe in me and I was rather disheartened by the end. I felt I’d built the castle on non-existent foundations.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stephen-dillane-its-better-not-working-in-westeros-nkb9qj3tr

Another Stephen Dillane:

Unwilling to evoke the subject ("are we obliged to talk about it?"), he never participated in the juggernaut promotional tours. Why is that? "Not interested," he retorts, annoyed... He confides, elusive: " I don't regret having made Game of Thrones but I have nothing to say about it. I did not understand the series or its success when I participated. The experience was very bizarre, it passed under my nose. For a role to please me, I have to be able to take an interest in it, which was not really the case. I was a little overwhelmed by events."

https://next.liberation.fr/images/2016/03/13/stephen-dillane-a-la-gauche-du-trone_1439355

Alexander Siddig:

It’s funny, I’m not really sure what happened there... “So we were going to kill you off at the end of last season, but we decided that we’re going to have to kill you off at the beginning of next season.” I was like, “Okay, life goes on.” But there was something wrong about that because I had been contracted for four episodes in the following season, so if they were going to kill me off at the end of the last season why would they contract me for those four episodes? Because it costs them money whether I do them or not, so it’s not great business sense to do it just in case.

So something happened; I have no idea what. There was an enormous amount of fan excitement when I got named to be on the show, and everyone was like, “Oh my god, yes, Doran Martell. He’s going to be great as Doran Martell.” That might have been the kiss of death. Maybe they didn’t want quite that much attention on that character. Maybe they thought, “Well, let’s prove that we’re going to stray from the books. We’re going to do something else, and he will be our first example of that.” So maybe that could have been the case. Or maybe I just screwed up. Maybe I said the wrong thing to the wrong person.

https://www.startrek.com/article/catching-up-with-alexander-siddig-part-1

Charles Dance:

I was confused. I have watched as much as I can because, you know, characters like Daenerys, her character, my character didn't meet... so I wanted to know what was happening to these characters.

We come to the big last series, we got to the very end and I thought, Hmm, OK. There's little Arya she's going off on a cruise somewhere, poor Jon's gone back up north beyond the wall, and then there is Tyrion.

And all the people left alive all sat around the table going, 'So well, what are we going to do now, shall we have a cup of tea or something?' And I thought, Ahh, I don’t know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWMRan_V1M

[Lucky7]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Le Cygne

You think far too much as fan/reader of the books. They didn't care about Sansa or any other character or *hated it* what George did with them - they just did what they wanted with, period.

They wrote scenes for the actors, not the characters.

I mean, think about it as if you wanted to adapt something you don't care much about, don't really understand in great detail. You just do what you want and make it so that you like it. You don't bother with silly fan nonsense like 'What a character would do' or what a character would be about.

Which is so hilarious, because so many actors were wasted on these last couple of seasons. That's what's really amazing and pathetic about the whole thing to me Seasons 6-8 were such a waste of resources,time,  animation, money, and talent (actors, animators, makeup artists, set designers, etc.,). Like, all that and all this money to produce something so below mediocre.

I actually feel sorry for the actors. Like imagine being in an excellent show that's well received, with writing you believe in and a character you're attached to only for it all to be completely ruined on every level.

 

I'm saying all this as someone who watched Seasons 1-5 back to back before getting into watching the show in realtime with Season 6. I was not a book reader and in fact avoided anything pertaining to the series until I was at least caught up (some stuff I was already spoiled about just by way of it being talked about so much i.e. red wedding). There was a noticeable drop in quality as far as writing in Season 5 but I thought that with some things that still happened (Theon and Sansa, Jon getting got, Jaime seeming to finally get back on track with his character development, Arya going blind, Dany getting surrounded by Dothraki and the arc about controlling her dragons) that it was still salvageable. I would have never thought the show would get far worse than anyone could have possibly imagined.

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

49 minutes ago, Lucky7 said:

I would have never thought the show would get far worse than anyone could have possibly imagined.

We did, the old long time ranters... we saw this catastrophe coming a looooong ways off. And we constantly had the show fans pop in here to tell us all how wrong we were.

Some were brave enough and honest enough to pop in again after series 8 to say, “I was so wrong, and you guys were right all along”. But only, like, 2? The rest simply dropped off the face of the earth apparently.

[Mystical]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

We did, the old long time ranters... we saw this catastrophe coming a looooong ways off. And we constantly had the show fans pop in here to tell us all how wrong we were.

This reminds of the few people brave enough in the early Seasons to write about the wrong things happening in the show. I remember this one guy blasting S1 (specifically the portrayal of the women) and iirc, D&D named a character after this guy that got killed off. I don't know if it's the same person but the beetle killing cousin that Tyrion had, he was named after someone who blasted the show.

It's hilarious how D&D said during the Austin Film Festival that they never read anything about critique but they had to address the Sansa rape (well they mostly pushed that onto Cogman) because it became such a big issue and they named characters after people who blasted their show/writing. Btw, how immature do you have to get to name characters after people who dared criticizing you.

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

I'd still love to know why there was no post-it on a HBO twitter before 5x06 aired where they warned the audience that they are about to rape a 15 year old in the episode. They felt the need to point out that Arya was 18 (which she was not even close to being at that point) before the episode with consensual sex in case people get triggered by....consensual sex? To make sure people knew she was legal in the eyes of US watchers? But they rape a 15 year old on screen and that doesn't warrant a heads up because...it wasn't graphically shown (we only heard it but didn't see it)?

Maybe she was supposed to be 16? The reason why I ask is because in the UK, it's against the law to depict a sex scene involving a minor, even if the actor is a legal adult. (If I remember correctly, there was a scene in the series premiere where they mentioned that Dany was sixteen). Maisie still looks like a teenager, so they probably sent out that tweet ahead of time to avoid inquiries.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Mystical said:

This reminds of the few people brave enough in the early Seasons to write about the wrong things happening in the show. I remember this one guy blasting S1 (specifically the portrayal of the women) and iirc, D&D named a character after this guy that got killed off. I don't know if it's the same person but the beetle killing cousin that Tyrion had, he was named after someone who blasted the show.

It's hilarious how D&D said during the Austin Film Festival that they never read anything about critique but they had to address the Sansa rape (well they mostly pushed that onto Cogman) because it became such a big issue and they named characters after people who blasted their show/writing. Btw, how immature do you have to get to name characters after people who dared criticizing you.

Yup, that was writer Orson Scott Card.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/game-of-thrones-fans/harsh-game-of-thrones-review-by-orson-scott-card/218357401509977/

 

[Daemon of the Blacks]

14 hours ago, Mystical said:

Cersei, their fave female character, was simply a soccer mom doing everything for her children. Instead of having a certifiable nutjob make dumb decisions we got a poor downtrodden woman that was touted as a villain despite never doing anything bad. Yes she wasn't a pleasant woman but all of her worst actions (killing Robert's bastards, giving people to Quyburn to torture etc.) were given to someone else or not in the show at all. The utter narcissist who saw both Jamie and her children as nothing more than extensions of her own narcissism.

I'm not too sure I agree with this one. If anything the worst thing they did with Cersei is do far too much with her. In season seven she suddenly became extremely competent and with the White Walkers being weak enough to be defeated in a single episode Cersei is suddenly left in the position of main villain of the show, a position she logically shouldn't have the merit to hold. 

Cersei's story should have ended very early in season 7. The green trial was such a typical Cersei move in that it was great at acquiring power but abysmal in keeping it. She got control over Kings Landing but the Tyrels naturally defect which should logically starve the city and deprive Cersei of half her forces. The Westerlands too should have seriously shaken loyalty considering she killed Kevan and Jaime is horrified at what she did. So logically it should just be Danny with the full might of the southern portion of Westeros and dragons casually walking up to Kings Landing and destroying Cersei who deprived herself of any advantage she could have had. 

But that's not what happened. Instead the Westerlands and Jaime meekly fall into line and Cersei suddenly got extremely competent. The sort of competence where she can just destroy the Tyrels, the second strongest house in Westeros in just a single episode. Tywin had to spend three seasons fighting an alliance between the Starks and Tullys. Cersei faces an arguably far stronger alliance but she almost casually wipes them out in a single episode. Tywin, supposedly the most competent man alive needed three seasons for a lessor enemy, Cersei the supposedly incompetent queen needed one episodes for an arguably far stronger alliance that had dragons to boot. Even with Tyrion's bumbling Cersei should not have what it takes to do any of that. 

Also I think there's more of Book Cersei present in Show Cersei then people might appreciate, at least before season 7 where Cersei gets bewilderingly capable and dangerous. In the earlier seasons Cersei was smug, deluded, far less competent then she thinks she is, constantly makes bad decisions and comes off as incredibly self centered and vain. Her love for her children is far stronger but the implication she loves them as extensions of themselves is still present in the way she almost shrugs off Tommens death. To some extend I even think that going a bit less over the top with Cersei was a good move. Book Cersei is fascinatingly vile but also a little bit cartoony, show cersei keeps most of those unstable traits but dials them back a little bit. 

A lot of character get a raw deal but until season 7 I think Cersei was handled differently but also mostly correctly. 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe she was supposed to be 16? The reason why I ask is because in the UK, it's against the law to depict a sex scene involving a minor, even if the actor is a legal adult. (If I remember correctly, there was a scene in the series premiere where they mentioned that Dany was sixteen). Maisie still looks like a teenager, so they probably sent out that tweet ahead of time to avoid inquiries.

I thought Sansa in Season 5 was supposed to be 17, since (at least on the wiki for the show) each season encompasses a single year.

[Ghostlydragon]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Sansa in Season 5 was supposed to be 17, since (at least on the wiki for the show) each season encompasses a single year.

The timelines become really unclear later but there is no way season 4 lasts any more than two weeks to a month and most of that is probably the gap between episode 1 and 2 as Tyrion couldn't have been locked up for that long.

[The Fattest Leech]

Quick question for anyone who follows book to show Plotzee! The world famous game of chopping up the books, scrambling them in a blender, then rearranging the pieces to create something... more brokener

What do you think are the chances that the letter Jon wrote in AFFC/ADWD to Cersei in King's Landing asking for help with the common foe (the Others), that was then discussed by Cersei in her AFFC 4 chapter where she ignores his pleas and instead conspires to kill him was remade into the wight hunt idea? Is it possible this was a D&D Plotzee! rework for that 'wight in a box", err, event? I was just discussing this scene elsewhere on the forum when this possibility inhabited my brain. I am kind of thinking it is a "rework" and that it adds to the mounting list of reasons we won't see a wight hunt in the books.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

Cersei gave him a sharp look. "What are you saying?"

"This," Qyburn said. "For years now, the Night's Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . ."

". . . to remove Jon Snow from the command," Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. "That is just what we shall do." She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father's son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs. "It will need to be done carefully, to be sure. Leave the rest to me, my lords." This was how an enemy should be dealt with: with a dagger, not a declaration. "We have done good work today, my lords. I thank you. Is there aught else?"