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Great Houses - Valyrian Steel Sword Names?

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:36 PM, AvengerofWinterfell said:

Thats the thing, most of Westeros' great houses dont have a VS sword.  The Tully's dont have one, neither do the Greyjoys or Tyrells (which is odd because their bannermen do.  The Baratheon's also dont have a VS weapon, nor the Martells. There are reasons for that though, the Tully's weren't exactly prominent lords at any point.  They were never kings of the Rivers and Hills like the Mudd's or Justman's.  The Greyjoys werent the ruler of the Iron Islands and the weapons owned by their bannermen were likely stolen in raids.  The Tyrells were stewards so thats why they dont have one though its possible that House Gardener had one that was destroyed during the Field of Fire.  The Baratheon's dont have one and Im not sure why.  I would imagine that if house Durrandon had one Orys would've claimed it like he did everything else but there is no mention of that.  The Martell's only became the dominant family in Dorne after the Rhoynar came over so they werent prominent enough to have one and I dont see Nymeria going looking for one given her history with Valyria.  House Arryn also doesnt have one though House Royce did but it was lost during the Dance of Dragons.  What I dont understand is how a house as notoriously poor as House Mormont has one, but other more prominent houses with long histories do not (Florent, Lefford, Rowan, etc.)

Don't be so certain that the Arryns or at least a branch of House Arryn doesn't have VS!  I spent a weekend with the final chapters of Fire and Blood chasing Truth.   Rogare needed money to buy an army.  He left the Vale suddenly for Braavos specifically, to get his army.   I believe there is evidence to support or at least point to Isembard Arryn as the guy who purchased Truth.   The Corbrays were not and are not particularly wealthy, nor the Royce family.   Though they are surely more wealthy than the Mormonts...right?  I'm not convinced it was money that got those swords from Valyria.   The Mormont quandary is adequate to support that idea.   Back to when the swords were actually made it's possible that they were merely outrageously expensive then as opposed to priceless now.  While I agree with you completely about the Westerosi houses that did not own swords, what can you even begin to say about a Valyrian house (Velaryon) that didn't have a sword, or axe or arakh or something made of VS???   I like the way you think Man.  

Little addendum for clarification, maybe further discussion...Nightfall is a Greyjoy sword.  What their cousin is doing with the thing I can't imagine.  Perhaps a family tree will explain how it got into Harlaw's hands, but Harras is on quest with a formidable Greyjoy.   Perhaps that's part of Euron's plan?   

Edited by Curled Finger
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On 1/3/2019 at 11:35 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

In general, the swords would be named to flatter the family.  Just think if Walder Frey had one.  Crannogkiller. 

"Mayhaps"

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On 1/29/2019 at 1:05 PM, The hairy bear said:

I could see House Arryn owning a VS sword. I could have gone unmentioned so far: they were ruled by a boy during the conquest and a woman during the Dance of Dragons. And in the main series, little Robert and Lysa wouldn't have any use for it.

There are other houses you mention that could own a VS sword: Rowan, Redwyne, Tarth, Estermont, Yronwood, ...

 

 

True, but isn’t Ser Verdi’s Egen given Jon Arryn’s blade and it isn’t noted as being VS? Doesn’t mean House Arryn doesn’t or didn’t at some time have one but worth pointing out

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Thanks @HelenaExMachina , I didn't rembember that one.

I think that somehow this reduces the likelyhood of the Arryns owning one VS sword, although it would still be possible. The blade you mention was a longsword, and many of the VS blades that we've seen were greatswords. Greatwords would not be normally brought to battle (unless you are the Mountain), so the houses that own them would still need smaller swords to fight. We would only now of them if we witnessed an executions (such as with Ice) or if they have some rellevant history attached to it (such as Brightroar).

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On 1/31/2019 at 10:54 PM, Curled Finger said:

Don't be so certain that the Arryns or at least a branch of House Arryn doesn't have VS!  I spent a weekend with the final chapters of Fire and Blood chasing Truth.   Rogare needed money to buy an army.  He left the Vale suddenly for Braavos specifically, to get his army.   I believe there is evidence to support or at least point to Isembard Arryn as the guy who purchased Truth.   The Corbrays were not and are not particularly wealthy, nor the Royce family.   Though they are surely more wealthy than the Mormonts...right?  I'm not convinced it was money that got those swords from Valyria.   The Mormont quandary is adequate to support that idea.   Back to when the swords were actually made it's possible that they were merely outrageously expensive then as opposed to priceless now.  While I agree with you completely about the Westerosi houses that did not own swords, what can you even begin to say about a Valyrian house (Velaryon) that didn't have a sword, or axe or arakh or something made of VS???   I like the way you think Man.  

Little addendum for clarification, maybe further discussion...Nightfall is a Greyjoy sword.  What their cousin is doing with the thing I can't imagine.  Perhaps a family tree will explain how it got into Harlaw's hands, but Harras is on quest with a formidable Greyjoy.   Perhaps that's part of Euron's plan?   

House Royce were once Kings of the Mountain , the Fingers, and the Vale. And seem to be very prominent  the last 300 years. And Little Finger doesnt seem to have any power over them in his debt scheme so they must be at least financially independent. 

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7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

House Royce were once Kings of the Mountain , the Fingers, and the Vale. And seem to be very prominent  the last 300 years. And Little Finger doesnt seem to have any power over them in his debt scheme so they must be at least financially independent. 

Right.   But I think House Royce was once far more important than their current role would lead you to believe.   I have a difficult time following the split or branches of House Royce as they both seem to wield significant power.  However, in this topic I think it's important to note that at one time House Royce possessed both a suit of magic armor (still in the family and replicated oddly...) and a Valyrian Steel Blade.    Given names like Lamentation and Lady Forlorn, you can't help but wonder what was happening in a place where 2 bucu expensive weapons had such sad names.   Did the Corbrays and Royce's name the swords or were they named when purchased?   I tend to lean toward names being bestowed upon arrival but that's mostly due to Ice and Lady Forlorn being replacements for much older swords.   So if the Royces--such an interesting bunch--called their sword Lamentation the big question is why?   

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Right.   But I think House Royce was once far more important than their current role would lead you to believe.   I have a difficult time following the split or branches of House Royce as they both seem to wield significant power.  However, in this topic I think it's important to note that at one time House Royce possessed both a suit of magic armor (still in the family and replicated oddly...) and a Valyrian Steel Blade.    Given names like Lamentation and Lady Forlorn, you can't help but wonder what was happening in a place where 2 bucu expensive weapons had such sad names.   Did the Corbrays and Royce's name the swords or were they named when purchased?   I tend to lean toward names being bestowed upon arrival but that's mostly due to Ice and Lady Forlorn being replacements for much older swords.   So if the Royces--such an interesting bunch--called their sword Lamentation the big question is why?   

The junior branch (House Royce of the Gates of the Moon), seems to be a rather recent creation. It's Littlefinger who permanently gives them the Gates of the Moon in AFFC, before they just seem to be a very influential branch.

But yes, they were prominent, being kings of Runestone and briefly kings of the entire Vale before Artys Arryn's war.

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:11 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

True, but isn’t Ser Verdi’s Egen given Jon Arryn’s blade and it isn’t noted as being VS? Doesn’t mean House Arryn doesn’t or didn’t at some time have one but worth pointing out

I think it's possible another branch of House Arryn has VS...Fire and Blood gave us much to ponder!   

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:31 AM, The hairy bear said:

Thanks @HelenaExMachina , I didn't rembember that one.

I think that somehow this reduces the likelyhood of the Arryns owning one VS sword, although it would still be possible. The blade you mention was a longsword, and many of the VS blades that we've seen were greatswords. Greatwords would not be normally brought to battle (unless you are the Mountain), so the houses that own them would still need smaller swords to fight. We would only now of them if we witnessed an executions (such as with Ice) or if they have some rellevant history attached to it (such as Brightroar).

I have to ask if you can point me to citations for these greatswords?  I've got Ice and Heartsbane pegged with full on text.   My early notes list Lamentation and Brightroar as a great swords as well, but I can't locate any text at all.    For my money, they are all long swords just configured differently but I could sure use any citation you have handy about the great swords!    

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On 2/1/2019 at 1:52 PM, LindsayLohan said:

"Mayhaps"

Perfect!  :bowdown:

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it's possible another branch of House Arryn has VS...Fire and Blood gave us much to ponder!   

We also have to bear in mind that VS have changed hands a few times. Nightfall supposed was wielded by the Greyjoys at one point. Lady Forlorn fell into the hands of a Royce (I think?) briefly, though that wasn't itself a VS sword but an earlier LF it seems. Now, F&B have given us Orphan-Maker leaving House Roxton and finding itself in the hands of Unwin Peake. Bottom line, we cannot take for granted the names of certain swords being strictly associated with the Houses who hold them now.

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19 minutes ago, Faera said:

Perfect!  :bowdown:

We also have to bear in mind that VS have changed hands a few times. Nightfall supposed was wielded by the Greyjoys at one point. Lady Forlorn fell into the hands of a Royce (I think?) briefly, though that wasn't itself a VS sword but an earlier LF it seems. Now, F&B have given us Orphan-Maker leaving House Roxton and finding itself in the hands of Unwin Peake. Bottom line, we cannot take for granted the names of certain swords being strictly associated with the Houses who hold them now.

All true.   You more than most understand that I do have some weird suspicions that may or may not have merit.  The names of the weapons are odd regardless their association.   Can Lamentation or Lady Forlorn really be considered war cries?   Do you think Nightfall or Red Rain were always the names of these swords?   How the hell would anyone know?  We see that at least Ice and LF replaced older heirlooms and the name continuum makes a great deal of sense there.   Red Rain is widely associated with House Reyne, but there is no way to verify that.   If it was a Reyne sword the name makes more sense than most sword names, but if it isn't the name becomes another what?   War cry or threat?    

Now that you bring up Nightfall it puts me in a mind to consider how Longclaw came into Mormont possession.   Dalton Greyjoy found Nightfall...we know the Greyjoys have married into the Harlaw family more than once while maintaining supreme power on the Iron Islands--or did they?     Could progressive minded Quellon have gifted the sword to a man more worthy than his own sons?   Nah, probably not, but this is really interesting to ponder.  Thanks Faera, you always give me something good to think about.   

Edited by Curled Finger
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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have to ask if you can point me to citations for these greatswords?  I've got Ice and Heartsbane pegged with full on text.   My early notes list Lamentation and Brightroar as a great swords as well, but I can't locate any text at all.    For my money, they are all long swords just configured differently but I could sure use any citation you have handy about the great swords!    

Brightroar was a greatsword, as per ASOS: The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool’s quest.

We are not told what kind of sword Lamentation was, but given that it was used in hand to hand combat in the Storming of the Dragonpit, we can safely assume that it wasn't a greatsword.

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Brightroar was a greatsword, as per ASOS: The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool’s quest.

We are not told what kind of sword Lamentation was, but given that it was used in hand to hand combat in the Storming of the Dragonpit, we can safely assume that it wasn't a greatsword.

That's great and explains exactly why i couldn't find great sword--it's 1 word.    Good point on Lamentation.   Still wish I knew why or how it was listed this way in my own notes.   Thanks a million.   

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11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Right.   But I think House Royce was once far more important than their current role would lead you to believe.   I have a difficult time following the split or branches of House Royce as they both seem to wield significant power.  However, in this topic I think it's important to note that at one time House Royce possessed both a suit of magic armor (still in the family and replicated oddly...) and a Valyrian Steel Blade.    Given names like Lamentation and Lady Forlorn, you can't help but wonder what was happening in a place where 2 bucu expensive weapons had such sad names.   Did the Corbrays and Royce's name the swords or were they named when purchased?   I tend to lean toward names being bestowed upon arrival but that's mostly due to Ice and Lady Forlorn being replacements for much older swords.   So if the Royces--such an interesting bunch--called their sword Lamentation the big question is why?   

My point is that the seem to have never been impoverished . 

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Brightroar was a greatsword, as per ASOS: The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool’s quest.

We are not told what kind of sword Lamentation was, but given that it was used in hand to hand combat in the Storming of the Dragonpit, we can safely assume that it wasn't a greatsword.

I get what your saying about greatswords being too big and heavy for combat but aren't we talking about blades made of conventional materials by conventional methods?  Valyrians steel is lighter and stronger and can be crafted to be thinner and sharper as well.  That suggests to me that a Valyrian greatsword might become more practical to wield in battle. 

Mind you I don't really know that much about swordplay but a thinner lighter, super sharp greatsword might just have it's uses in hand to hand combat.  Longer reach for example. 

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@White Ravens

I don't know much about swordplay either, but you may be right in pointing out that if Valyrian Steel weights significantly less, it could be used in more situations. Still, I think that in close hand to hand combat or in reduced quarters greatswords would not be very useful, as I imagine you'd need plenty of space to maneuver with a weapon that is basically as large as yourself.

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On 1/3/2019 at 11:16 AM, zandru said:

Targaryens had three, one for each. Visenya's was lost with her and her dragon over Dorne.

Tarly: Heartsbane

Mormont: the original Longclaw

Lannister: Ice now becomes Oathkeeper and Widow's Whinge (or some other moronic name assigned by the idiot Joffrey)

The Dayne sword "Dawn" wasn't Valyrian steel, but some other mystical substance, forged from a fallen star (if nickel-iron, I'm surprised they actually could reforge it).

For more details and swords, please see this site:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel

Visenya wasn't the one who died over Dorne, that was Rhaenys.  Also, I've never heard any mention of the Targaryens having a third sword and in all honesty it wouldnt make sense for them to.  Visenya carried one because she was a warrior, Rhaenys was not and as such likely would not have worn one.  Even if she did, someone in Dorne wouldve claimed said sword so there would be a Dornish house with a VS blade.

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On 1/31/2019 at 11:54 PM, Curled Finger said:

Don't be so certain that the Arryns or at least a branch of House Arryn doesn't have VS!  I spent a weekend with the final chapters of Fire and Blood chasing Truth.   Rogare needed money to buy an army.  He left the Vale suddenly for Braavos specifically, to get his army.   I believe there is evidence to support or at least point to Isembard Arryn as the guy who purchased Truth.   The Corbrays were not and are not particularly wealthy, nor the Royce family.   Though they are surely more wealthy than the Mormonts...right?  I'm not convinced it was money that got those swords from Valyria.   The Mormont quandary is adequate to support that idea.   Back to when the swords were actually made it's possible that they were merely outrageously expensive then as opposed to priceless now.  While I agree with you completely about the Westerosi houses that did not own swords, what can you even begin to say about a Valyrian house (Velaryon) that didn't have a sword, or axe or arakh or something made of VS???   I like the way you think Man.  

Little addendum for clarification, maybe further discussion...Nightfall is a Greyjoy sword.  What their cousin is doing with the thing I can't imagine.  Perhaps a family tree will explain how it got into Harlaw's hands, but Harras is on quest with a formidable Greyjoy.   Perhaps that's part of Euron's plan?   

NIghtfall was a Greyjoy blade, but even then they acquired it via the Iron Price as opposed to buying it or having it gifted to them.

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On 2/2/2019 at 1:29 AM, dsjj251 said:

House Royce were once Kings of the Mountain , the Fingers, and the Vale. And seem to be very prominent  the last 300 years. And Little Finger doesnt seem to have any power over them in his debt scheme so they must be at least financially independent. 

Due to their geographical proximity to Gulltown and the fact that House Shett which is associated with Gulltown seems to be directly sworn to them, I think that the Royces have some not inconsiderable influence in Gulltown from which they derive power and wealth. Also, Runestone itself has independent ports that they operate. I don't think they lack for wealth the way some noble houses have been portrayed.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:06 AM, Curled Finger said:

So if the Royces--such an interesting bunch--called their sword Lamentation the big question is why?   

I think names like Lamentation and Lady Forlorn have the same sort of meaning as Orphan-Maker and Widow's Wail which should be more self-explanatory. Swords are for killing, so it makes sense that they will bear names related to death.

On 2/2/2019 at 1:33 PM, Faera said:

We also have to bear in mind that VS have changed hands a few times. Nightfall supposed was wielded by the Greyjoys at one point. Lady Forlorn fell into the hands of a Royce (I think?) briefly, though that wasn't itself a VS sword but an earlier LF it seems. Now, F&B have given us Orphan-Maker leaving House Roxton and finding itself in the hands of Unwin Peake. Bottom line, we cannot take for granted the names of certain swords being strictly associated with the Houses who hold them now.

Agreed. I think that's a possible explanation for how Longclaw came to the Mormonts. We know of two swords possessed by Ironmen. These swords were both bought with the Iron price. It's possible that other Valyrian steel swords came into possession of Ironborn reavers in the same way. It's also possible that one was lost by Ironborn reavers in one of their many raids of Bear Island. The Mormonts then had the Bear pommel made and named the sword Longclaw.

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On 4/12/2019 at 10:40 PM, AvengerofWinterfell said:

NIghtfall was a Greyjoy blade, but even then they acquired it via the Iron Price as opposed to buying it or having it gifted to them.

So how did the Greyjoy sword become a Harlaw sword?  Ser Harras Harlaw is only a nephew of Balon, who presumably held Nightfall at some point.   Theon survived.   Asha seems to have some serious skill at fighting.  Victarion is a bad ass fighter and even Euron only incurred exile relatively recently.  Balon couldn't find a Greyjoy to hang on to this priceless weapon?   It had to go to a nephew from his wife's family?    That's the question, friend, why does a Harlaw have a Greyjoy sword?  

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