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Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Why are you quoting Werthead's fan theory at me? 

"I think you are conflating climate directly with latitude."

No.  I'm pretty sure that was you.  But it's okay when you do it, right?

"London, from where I live, is rather the byword for cloudy and gloomy."

London is a poor place for lemons, potted plants notwithstanding.  But it is hardly Braavos.  I'm not sure anywhere on this planet is as bad as Braavos, but there are plenty of places in the real world that get less sun than London.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 minutes ago, corbon said:

Did he go out of his way?

There is lemon-related dialogue in many places. Lemons a clearly something of a well known luxury item for people not from hot climes, and something they casually look for in hot climes as a consequence. I don't see lemons at Winterfell, the Wall or the Twins as being clues to not-lemons in Braavos.

You are not understanding what I am saying. He is the author of the book. He wrote every word. The dialogue between Anguy/Sharna and between Anguy/Lem about the duck and lemons has nothing to do with the plot. It is irrelevant banter. But George chose to put it in the book and used lemons specifically when he could have easily used some other citrus fruit.

Yeah, lemons are mentioned a bunch in asoiaf. In fact, they are mentioned on exactly 58 occasions. I think it is pretty clear looking at the list that George wants us to conclude that A) Dany's memory of the lemon tree is significant, B) lemon trees don't generally grow north of King's Landing, and C) lemon trees are most commonly found in Dorne. And the implication of those conclusions put together is that the House with the Red Door was in Dorne, where the lemon trees are. Here is the complete list, with Dorne-related things in bold:

All lemon search results

  1. Dany’s original memory of lemon tree
  2. Dany’s lemon tree
  3. lemon scent in Illyrio’s manse
  4. lemon cakes to be served by Cersei
  5. grasses yellow as lemon
  6. Sam would snitch lemon cakes and blueberry tarts
  7. lemon cakes at KL tourney feast
  8. Sansa and Jeyne search for lemon cakes
  9. cart tarts in KL
  10. Arya wishes for lemon cake
  11. Mormont drink lemon in his beer every day
  12. Tyrion internally jokes about Aegon juggling lemon pies
  13. lemon cakes at Bitterbridge
  14. Mormont says no lemon in wine, even though he always drinks it in beer
  15. HOTU lemon tree
  16. lemon sky
  17. lemon cakes are Sansa’s favorite
  18. Varys smells of lemons
  19. Do you think Sharna might have lemons? quote: “A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons."
  20. With lemons. If you had some. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne?
  21. more lemon cakes with the Tyrell crew
  22. Sansa chooses perfume with a hint of lemon
  23. Mormont jokes about obsidian, they can call it lemon pie for all I care
  24. The banners of House Dalt of Lemonwood (from Dorne)
  25. GoHH calls Lem Lemon and says his mouth will taste of lemons
  26. Ser Ryman Frey bathes in lemonwater
  27. Tyrion’s pigeon pie with lemon cream at PW
  28. The Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges
  29. Commoners throw various citrus fruits at Doran
  30. Cersei drinking lemon water
  31. Brienne describes Sansa and her purported love of lemon cakes
  32. lemon orchards in Dorne
  33. Arianne eats a kid roasted with lemon and honey
  34. Sansa promises Robert lemony lemony lemon cakes. Robert demands 100 lemon cakes and five tales!
  35. Sansa asks LF if he found lemons so she can fulfill her promise of lemon cakes
  36. Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon
  37. Stannis orders boiled eggs and lemon water for his meal
  38. Jon offers lemon water
  39. Stannis orders more lemon water
  40. Ysilla (a Dornish Orphan) squeezes a lemon over a pike while cooking
  41. Eggs and lemon soup served at feast for Ser Balon Swann in Sunspear
  42. Yezzan zo Qaggaz drinks lemon water while bidding on Tyrion
  43. Tyrion internally jokes that Dany will free the slaves and then bake them all a lemon pie
  44. Yezzan’s tent is lemon-colored
  45. lemon trees in Dany’s garden in Meereen
  46. Arya drinks a tart potion before putting on a face and compares it to biting into a lemon. Arya loved lemon cakes.
  47. Dany serves lemon juice to Galazza Galare
  48. Jeyne recalls Gage the cook making lemoncakes to prove her fake identity. quote: “He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."
    1. WF did not grow its own supply of lemons it would seem. Lemoncakes were a special treat cooked only when they got a fresh delivery.
  49. Raff the Sweetling explicitly questions the absence of citrus fruit trees in Braavos, because he didn’t know Braavos is north of KL
  50. 12 ft tall lemon cake at Sweetrobin’s tourney. quote: The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.
  51. Dunk eats duck cooked with cherries and lemons on his way to Ashford (near Highgarden)
  52. rival High King of Dorne “ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees” during the times of the First Men (Lemonwood is mentioned a total of 6 times, including TWOIAF)
  53. Darkstar drinks unsweetened lemonwater
  54. Arya bathes in lemonwater at the House of Black and White

Lemon search results summary

  • lemons are brought up 58 times in ASOIAF so far (including TWOIAF)
  • 13 are mentions of lemon cakes (Cersei will be serving cakes on way to KL, 4 mentions are Sansa eating cakes in KL, Sam would snitch cakes at Horn Hill, Arya wishes for cakes, cakes are served at Bitterbridge tourney, Brienne describes Sansa’s love of them, Sansa promises Robert cakes, Sansa asks LF if he found lemons for cakes for Robert, Jeyne recalls Gage the cook and Sansa’s love of cakes, giant cake at Robert’s tourney), and 1 is the cart tarts in KL
  • 6 are mentions of Lemonwood itself or a specific member of House Dalt (from Dorne), and 2 are mentions of lemon trees in Dorne other than the Lemonwood (description of the Water Gardens, and Arianne’s party passing through lemon orchards)
  • 6 are people drinking lemon water, and 1 is Dany serving lemon juice
  • 4 are people using lemon scent in some form (Illyrio, Varys, Sansa, and Ryman Frey)
  • 4 are about Dornish food (Anguy’s memory of Dornish girl cooking duck with lemon, Arianne eating kid roasted with lemon, Ysilla squeezing lemon over a pike, soup made with eggs and lemons at Sunspear), and 1 is commoners in Sunspear throwing various citrus fruits at Doran
  • 3 are people using lemon to describe a shade of yellow
  • 3 are Dany’s memory of the house with the red door and the lemon tree (2 in AGOT and 1 in HOTU in ACOK)
  • 3 are people joking
  • 2 are about LC Mormont drinking lemon in his beer but not in his wine
  • 2 are instances of people educating others about how farth north lemon trees grow (Sharna/Anguy and old guy/Raff)
  • 1 is the GoHH calling Lem Lemon and saying his mouth will taste of lemons
  • 1 is Tyrion’s pie with (possibly poisoned) lemon cream at the PW
  • 1 is “Lady Sybell looked as if she swallowed a lemon”
  • 1 is the mention of lemon trees in Dany’s garden in Meereen
  • 1 is Arya drinking a tart potion and comparing its taste to lemons
  • 1 is Dunk eating duck cooked with lemons
  • 1 is Arya bathing in lemonwater

 

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7 hours ago, corbon said:

 

I think you should examine this statement of yours. It bears no relationship at all to the conversion we had or my answers. I don't think you want to leave it standing given what it says about you.
You are the one who brought up medieval level rich folk gardening habits, not me. I said that it was not necessary to know anything about such habits
You said much of the modern world (ie potential readers) are woefully lacking in basic common knowledge, let alone such esoteric knowledge. I said that esoteric knowledge was not needed at all, and GRRM's writing isn't aimed at the woefully ignorant, its aimed at people with a decent understanding of the world and how it works.

A decent understanding of the world and how it works clearly doesn't require esoteric knowledge that isn't needed at all.
 

They are linked to hot climes yes. And there are just as many links to cold climes plus wealth.
Red door house in Braavos is cold clime plus wealth. There is nothing suspicious about it. It is a data point backed up by Dany's other memories (travelling after being cast out) and by the Sealord's signature on the marriage document which ties Willem Darry and Dany and Viserys to Braavos.

There is nothing linking the red door house to Dorne. A lemon tree does not signify Dorne in the text. It signifies either a hot clime (including Dorne, other Free Cities, Meeren, etc) or a cold clime + wealth. As your quotes, plus the ones you missed, clearly showed.

No, he says he expected to see them and hasn't. Not that they aren't there. He does NOT say there are no trees in Braavos. Just that his expectations of seeing lots of Citrus tress (more importantly other things - bare bellied girls) has not been met.

He has a misinformed expectation of Braavos, confusing it with the more Southern Free Cities. He's not giving us a definitive detailed commentary on the contents of Braavos, he's complaining that its not like he expected.

The other guard, tells him his expectations (bare bellied girls, hot nights, citrus tress etc) are matched to the southern Free Cities.
 

If you think the average fantasy reader is aware of the specifics of the medieval rich person's garden (lemon trees?) without being told, we'll have to agree to disagree. Ditto if you think GRRM wrote the books expecting his typical reader to know this. That's it.

Bolded. Discussing lemons overall is ok when discussing hints to Dorne. If you're talking lemon trees, those don't apply.

The only lemon trees in the series are:

1. Dany’s which are mentioned 3 times, and her very young, filled-with-doubt memories think they're in Braavos. I don't accept this as a given. At all. If you really want to convince me of anything, convince of why Dany's doubtful very young-child memories should be taken as  absolutely indisputable and factual truth.

2. Anguy in Arya’s POV—Anguy assumes they’re available at an inn but turns out they don’t grow in the Riverlands climate, at least not in the Fall.

3. Meereen

4. Arya’s POV where they are not in Braavos

5. Mentioned in the Dorne section of TWOIAF

So not a single instance of lemon trees in any rich person’s garden that’s not also a natural climate, and we've seen a number of rich folks' gardens in this series. Nothing in the books says lemon trees in cold climates of rich people is totally normal. Again, I don't take Dany's memories as absolute fact at all so her seeing them in Braavos is very problematic and inconsistent with what we've actually been told in the series (lemons hot climate), not what we're left to assume according to some readers (common for rich folk to keep lemon trees even in the cold even though we have no indisputable example of this in the series). 

 

Here's those quotes again. Arya says no trees, not the man.

AFFC Arya I

The city had seemed like one big island from where the Titan stood, but as Yorko rowed them closer she saw that it was many small islands close together, linked by arched stone bridges that spanned innumerable canals. Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

 

TWOW Mercy 

Spoiler

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

ASOS  Arya II

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

 So two very similar passages (geography, lemon trees, pomegranates, "fool"). If you want to dispute whether the old man was including trees in his answer, I base my interpretation on the similarity to the second passage which is def about trees and climate. 

 

 

You're responding to me like I'm full on lemongater and you're attributing things to me that I haven't said. Please reread my posts. I'm pointing out what doesn't add up, no idea what it means, though. Problems with Braavos doesn't mean it must be in Dorne. Which is what I've said from the start.

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Braavos does not have any trees in general because its built on hundreds of small islands on a lagoon. Similar in a way to Venice. It does in fact have tall pines on some of the outer islands, but they are illegal to cut down as they create a wind break for the rest of the city. Hence little to no wood. Firewood has to be brought in by barge.

Space to have trees in a garden, and the wherewithal to have them tended, is very much a province of the rich in Braavos. And if you are going to have trees in those circumstances, might as well have relatively exotic ones that give a return in the form of luxury fruit.

 

Yeah, I didn't say a Sealord wouldn't have space for a garden (nevermind that the rich person and Sealord theories have as shaky proof as the other options). My point was underlining the lack of trees in Braavos and then hinging Dany's story on a tree in Braavos is crap writing and undermining his own story. The undermining gets worse when there's Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons meaning there's a climate problem with them in Braavos, yet again Dany's backstory hinges on this. Even worse writing. Don't buy it. Something's up with it. 

 

And on the lemon tree outside in a cold climate thing...found another problem. I'm sure you'll find a way to disagree. And your response will go back to what I've already stated I don't accept as if I never said that. This is so exciting isn't it? 

All three times Dany's lemon tree is mentioned, she brings up that it’s outside her window. That's important for some reason. 

Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree!

 

Google potted lemon tree and you’ll see that they don’t get tall enough to be seen even outside a first floor window. Add to that land is a premium in Braavos thus buildings are tall in combination with bedrooms typically being on a second story or higher and you’ve got a mature outdoor lemon tree waaaayyyyy too big for a pot and in a climate where the years-long winter will kill it. Can't "tend" your way out of that.

 

Also, I don't see any purpose to a hint to a connection to Dorne in the lemon tree. Dany's lemon tree mentions are in AGOT and the HOTU chapter in ACOK. It's not until later that the books underscore Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons... Plus, we're told outright what's up with Dorne later. Yet after this is supposedly cleared up with the reveal of the pact, we get that weird

TWOW spoiler

Spoiler

passage in the above Mercy chapter where lemongate could have cleared up with a single sentence, yet it was made worse: a statement questioning lemon trees in Braavos. Why???? Bad writing? Or intent to some ends? Just being a troll?

 

 

And I won't read anymore replies where my inconvenient points are hacked out. Quote me in full if you want me to look at it. I'm tired of repeating myself.

Edited by Lollygag

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That's not an answer to my question... why did GEORGE go OUT OF HIS WAY to write that lemon-related dialogue? He obviously knows it will be interpreted as a clue about Dany by many readers.

It is a clue. Just not that the house with the red door is in Dorne, and certainly not that Dany is not Daenerys, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. It is a early and subtle clue that Dany's belief that she and her brother were without support from Westeros is not true. Most particularly it is a clue of Dornish support for the Targaryens that is later confirmed by the revelation of the secret marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne. This has critical relevance for the story when we see the Dornish chapters and effects the entire arc of the story as both Daenerys and "Aegon" return to Westeros to stake their claims to the Iron Throne. If you are one of the few who caught the hints Martin left about the lemon tree, then congratulations. Just don't make the lemon tree to be more than what it is. The house with the red door is in Braavos where Dany remembers it. The pact proves it. And she is the trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and Viserys's heir. The birth of the dragons, among many other things, prove that.

Edited by SFDanny

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7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Argh --- I'm being a fussy nitpicker --- would not it be a grove?

Yeah, I think its safe to say I am not a farmer

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I got tired of making lemonade. Now I make orange juice.

Orange Juice > Lemonade

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:
On 1/29/2019 at 10:32 PM, The Map Guy said:

When life gives us lemons, we make lemonade. margaritas!

FTFY. :P

Awesome, lets party! I totally know this place in Braavos with a red door, it has a secret lemon tree....let's go steal some lemons for our margaritas!

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13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Argh --- I'm being a fussy nitpicker --- would not it be a grove?

 

<puts on pedantic hat>

If naturally occurring, it would be a grove, copse or stand of trees. If planned and cultivated it would be an orchard.

<takes off pedantic hat>

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On 1/26/2019 at 10:53 PM, Platypus Rex said:

This is a poll.  Please answer "Yes" or "No" to the following question:

Is the House with the Red Door, which Daenerys Remembers from her Childhood as being in Braavos, Actually Somewhere in Dorne?

For context, this obviously relates to an idea dubbed "Lemongate", "Lemongate", by itself, means only that the lemon-tree outside Dany's window, and its seeming inconsistency with the climate of Braavos, is a clue to some mystery or secret about Dany's past.  However, "the lemon tree means something", by itself, is not much of a theory.  Slightly braver theorists have guessed that the lemon tree is a signal that the house with the red door is actually somewhere far to the south of Braavos, such as Lys, or Myr or Tyrosh or Dorne (which, for various reasons, is the top suspect), or any other place whose climate might be more friendly to lemons.  Those who reject this idea prefer other explanations for the lemon tree, such as (for instance) Dany was staying at the Sealord's Palace, who maintains a garden, and a menagerie of exotic species.  Still others reject "Lemongate" entirely, arguing that the lemon-tree has no significance at all, and is (for instance) merely a discrepancy left over from an early draft, when her city of exile was situated in the South.

Even braver theorists, have connected these ideas with more elaborate theories, and guessed that Dany is not, as she believes, actually the daughter of Rhaella, born on Dragonstone, but the child of other parents, such as Ashara, or Lyanna, or some random Lysene prostitute or lowborn slave.  However, the above question does not ask you to take a position on such issues.  The question to be answered is simply as stated above in bold.

Please feel free to give reasons for your answers, or otherwise elaborate.  However, please do not argue with the reasons given by other posters for at least a couple of pages.  After that, have at it.

Thanks in advance to all voters.

EDIT:  8 in favor to 28 against, so far.

For "Yes":  TPTWP Timett, Sly Wren, Nezza86, Impbread, Sophia Wilson17, Sigella., Lollygag, Sweet Desire, and [uncounted] Platypus Rex.

For "No":  Wolf's Bane, chrisdaw. Back door hodor, Ygrain, King Aegon I Targaryen, Vaith, Bowen 747, White Ravens, Missing Benjen, Three-Fingered Pete, Gertrude, Ran, Frey family reunion, bent branch, Megavora, Bael's Bastard, HelmHammerhand, The Map Guy, Morte, SFDanny, Wolf of the Steppes, Faera, Alexis-something-Rose, OtherFromAnotherMother, Clegane'sPup, Enuma Elish, The Transporter, Aline de Gavrillac.

----------------------------------------------

Previous "Unpopular Theory" Polls:

"Did Summer See a Dragon?":  7 for to 36 against (16.3%).  Supported by:  Legitimate_Bastard, rustythesmith, TPTWP Timett, Remirem, kleevedge, Gertrude, weetsunray, and [uncounted] Platypus Rex.

"Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?":  15 for to 29 against (34.1%).  Supported by:  Gertrude, chrisdaw, WyldFyre, Penny's Got a Gun, Megavora, Back door hodor, Lost Melnibonean, Tucu, acwill07, Ibbison from Ibben, Son of Man, Remiem, OtherFromAnotherMother, Lynesse, Jo Maltese, and [uncounted] Platypus Rex. 

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

No

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9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It is a clue. Just not that the house with the red door is in Dorne, and certainly not that Dany is not Daenerys, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. It is a early and subtle clue that Dany's belief that she and her brother were without support from Westeros is not true. Most particularly it is a clue of Dornish support for the Targaryens that is later confirmed by the revelation of the secret marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne. This has critical relevance for the story when we see the Dornish chapters and effects the entire arc of the story as both Daenerys and "Aegon" return to Westeros to stake their claims to the Iron Throne. If you are one of the few who caught the hints Martin left about the lemon tree, then congratulations. Just don't make the lemon tree to be more than what it is. The house with the red door is in Braavos where Dany remembers it. The pact proves it. And she is the trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and Viserys's heir. The birth of the dragons, among many other things, prove that.

OK this is at least an explanation that I would buy. Well put. Though I disagree with some bits. 

The pact proves nothing if it's fake, which I think it is.

The birth of the dragons is obviously not proof that she is the daughter of Aerys. I am suggesting she is his granddaughter. 

I am open to both possibilities of Dany's identity, and I wish everyone on the forum was less dismissive of ideas like this. George is a tinfoily writer. If you don't believe me, read his other books. They have endings already so we don't have argue about predictions.

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16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You are not understanding what I am saying. He is the author of the book. He wrote every word. The dialogue between Anguy/Sharna and between Anguy/Lem about the duck and lemons has nothing to do with the plot. It is irrelevant banter. But George chose to put it in the book and used lemons specifically when he could have easily used some other citrus fruit.

Yeah, lemons are mentioned a bunch in asoiaf. In fact, they are mentioned on exactly 58 occasions. I think it is pretty clear looking at the list that George wants us to conclude that A) Dany's memory of the lemon tree is significant, B) lemon trees don't generally grow north of King's Landing, and C) lemon trees are most commonly found in Dorne. And the implication of those conclusions put together is that the House with the Red Door was in Dorne, where the lemon trees are. Here is the complete list, with Dorne-related things in bold:

All lemon search results

  1. Dany’s original memory of lemon tree
  2. Dany’s lemon tree
  3. lemon scent in Illyrio’s manse
  4. lemon cakes to be served by Cersei
  5. grasses yellow as lemon
  6. Sam would snitch lemon cakes and blueberry tarts
  7. lemon cakes at KL tourney feast
  8. Sansa and Jeyne search for lemon cakes
  9. cart tarts in KL
  10. Arya wishes for lemon cake
  11. Mormont drink lemon in his beer every day
  12. Tyrion internally jokes about Aegon juggling lemon pies
  13. lemon cakes at Bitterbridge
  14. Mormont says no lemon in wine, even though he always drinks it in beer
  15. HOTU lemon tree
  16. lemon sky
  17. lemon cakes are Sansa’s favorite
  18. Varys smells of lemons
  19. Do you think Sharna might have lemons? quote: “A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons."
  20. With lemons. If you had some. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne?
  21. more lemon cakes with the Tyrell crew
  22. Sansa chooses perfume with a hint of lemon
  23. Mormont jokes about obsidian, they can call it lemon pie for all I care
  24. The banners of House Dalt of Lemonwood (from Dorne)
  25. GoHH calls Lem Lemon and says his mouth will taste of lemons
  26. Ser Ryman Frey bathes in lemonwater
  27. Tyrion’s pigeon pie with lemon cream at PW
  28. The Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges
  29. Commoners throw various citrus fruits at Doran
  30. Cersei drinking lemon water
  31. Brienne describes Sansa and her purported love of lemon cakes
  32. lemon orchards in Dorne
  33. Arianne eats a kid roasted with lemon and honey
  34. Sansa promises Robert lemony lemony lemon cakes. Robert demands 100 lemon cakes and five tales!
  35. Sansa asks LF if he found lemons so she can fulfill her promise of lemon cakes
  36. Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon
  37. Stannis orders boiled eggs and lemon water for his meal
  38. Jon offers lemon water
  39. Stannis orders more lemon water
  40. Ysilla (a Dornish Orphan) squeezes a lemon over a pike while cooking
  41. Eggs and lemon soup served at feast for Ser Balon Swann in Sunspear
  42. Yezzan zo Qaggaz drinks lemon water while bidding on Tyrion
  43. Tyrion internally jokes that Dany will free the slaves and then bake them all a lemon pie
  44. Yezzan’s tent is lemon-colored
  45. lemon trees in Dany’s garden in Meereen
  46. Arya drinks a tart potion before putting on a face and compares it to biting into a lemon. Arya loved lemon cakes.
  47. Dany serves lemon juice to Galazza Galare
  48. Jeyne recalls Gage the cook making lemoncakes to prove her fake identity. quote: “He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."
    1. WF did not grow its own supply of lemons it would seem. Lemoncakes were a special treat cooked only when they got a fresh delivery.
  49. Raff the Sweetling explicitly questions the absence of citrus fruit trees in Braavos, because he didn’t know Braavos is north of KL
  50. 12 ft tall lemon cake at Sweetrobin’s tourney. quote: The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.
  51. Dunk eats duck cooked with cherries and lemons on his way to Ashford (near Highgarden)
  52. rival High King of Dorne “ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees” during the times of the First Men (Lemonwood is mentioned a total of 6 times, including TWOIAF)
  53. Darkstar drinks unsweetened lemonwater
  54. Arya bathes in lemonwater at the House of Black and White

Lemon search results summary

  • lemons are brought up 58 times in ASOIAF so far (including TWOIAF)
  • 13 are mentions of lemon cakes (Cersei will be serving cakes on way to KL, 4 mentions are Sansa eating cakes in KL, Sam would snitch cakes at Horn Hill, Arya wishes for cakes, cakes are served at Bitterbridge tourney, Brienne describes Sansa’s love of them, Sansa promises Robert cakes, Sansa asks LF if he found lemons for cakes for Robert, Jeyne recalls Gage the cook and Sansa’s love of cakes, giant cake at Robert’s tourney), and 1 is the cart tarts in KL
  • 6 are mentions of Lemonwood itself or a specific member of House Dalt (from Dorne), and 2 are mentions of lemon trees in Dorne other than the Lemonwood (description of the Water Gardens, and Arianne’s party passing through lemon orchards)
  • 6 are people drinking lemon water, and 1 is Dany serving lemon juice
  • 4 are people using lemon scent in some form (Illyrio, Varys, Sansa, and Ryman Frey)
  • 4 are about Dornish food (Anguy’s memory of Dornish girl cooking duck with lemon, Arianne eating kid roasted with lemon, Ysilla squeezing lemon over a pike, soup made with eggs and lemons at Sunspear), and 1 is commoners in Sunspear throwing various citrus fruits at Doran
  • 3 are people using lemon to describe a shade of yellow
  • 3 are Dany’s memory of the house with the red door and the lemon tree (2 in AGOT and 1 in HOTU in ACOK)
  • 3 are people joking
  • 2 are about LC Mormont drinking lemon in his beer but not in his wine
  • 2 are instances of people educating others about how farth north lemon trees grow (Sharna/Anguy and old guy/Raff)
  • 1 is the GoHH calling Lem Lemon and saying his mouth will taste of lemons
  • 1 is Tyrion’s pie with (possibly poisoned) lemon cream at the PW
  • 1 is “Lady Sybell looked as if she swallowed a lemon”
  • 1 is the mention of lemon trees in Dany’s garden in Meereen
  • 1 is Arya drinking a tart potion and comparing its taste to lemons
  • 1 is Dunk eating duck cooked with lemons
  • 1 is Arya bathing in lemonwater

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending her back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." 

Spoiler

In Winds, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepare a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar, all for Alayne. "The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more." 

Run! Sansa, run!

Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes. In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ended up at her father's execution.

Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. On the night Daenerys was sold to the savage she smelled sweet lemon among other eastern scents. 

Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father. When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kid roasted with lemon. Poor Myrcella. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noblest lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls.

Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen? 

We see a lemon in one of the ancillary novellas too... When Dunk has a personal feast, feeling what it means to be a knight for the first time at the beginning of The Hedge Knight, he dines on lamb and an even better duck cooked with cherries and lemons and he quaffs it down with four tankards of a thick, nut brown ale. By the end of the novella, though, Prince Maekar had slain his brother, Baelor Breakspear, who died defending Dunk against Prince Aerion's accusations. 

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A mysterious hint about Dornish support is not needed as we were told about Dorne directly in Dany's first chapter of the first book. Viserys is exaggerating here to inflate his own sense of grandiosity, but the point remains. And it's the Dornish who are given a very specific reason for support. To underscore its import, we're told about Rhaegar/Lyanna and Westeros' revenge culture in the chapters which surround AGOT Daenerys I. 

AGOT Daenerys I

Her brother, sprawled out on his pillows beside her, never noticed. His mind was away across the narrow sea. "We won't need his whole khalasar," Viserys said. His fingers toyed with the hilt of his borrowed blade, though Dany knew he had never used a sword in earnest. "Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers. The realm will rise for its rightful king. Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children. And the smallfolk will be with us. They cry out for their king." He looked at Illyrio anxiously. "They do, don't they?"

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 Also, we don't find out until ASOS about lemons and Dorne, but the tree is only mentioned in AGOT and ACOK. Finding a clue in the lemon tree for what we've been told directly from the start only works on reread which most readers won't do. I'd consider that the tree tells us something of the nature of that support, but I don't see any symbolism around trees pointing to a marriage alliance. or much anything else. The Northerners marry around trees, but that doesn't apply here and that's not the primary association with trees. More than anything, it would point to "Dorne remembers" as trees are linked to memories and the past in the series. But we were already told that directly so why bother. 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If you think the average fantasy reader is aware of the specifics of the medieval rich person's garden (lemon trees?) without being told, we'll have to agree to disagree. Ditto if you think GRRM wrote the books expecting his typical reader to know this. That's it.

Look, I clearly and explicitly don't think that. Please stop pushing that I do. 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Bolded. Discussing lemons overall is ok when discussing hints to Dorne. If you're talking lemon trees, those don't apply.

The only lemon trees in the series are:

1. Dany’s which are mentioned 3 times, and her very young, filled-with-doubt memories think they're in Braavos. I don't accept this as a given. At all. If you really want to convince me of anything, convince of why Dany's doubtful very young-child memories should be taken as  absolutely indisputable and factual truth.

2. Anguy in Arya’s POV—Anguy assumes they’re available at an inn but turns out they don’t grow in the Riverlands climate, at least not in the Fall.

3. Meereen

4. Arya’s POV where they are not in Braavos

5. Mentioned in the Dorne section of TWOIAF

So not a single instance of lemon trees in any rich person’s garden that’s not also a natural climate, and we've seen a number of rich folks' gardens in this series. Nothing in the books says lemon trees in cold climates of rich people is totally normal. Again, I don't take Dany's memories as absolute fact at all so her seeing them in Braavos is very problematic and inconsistent with what we've actually been told in the series (lemons hot climate), not what we're left to assume according to some readers (common for rich folk to keep lemon trees even in the cold even though we have no indisputable example of this in the series). 

We are in complete agreement that lemons, and even more so lemon trees, are not common outside of Dorne and other hot areas.

Where we are in disagreement is that you utterly ignore several important facts so that you can call a lemon tree in Braavos "problematic":

1.That lemons in ASoIaF are found in all sorts of places where they don't grow naturally, but always amongst the wealthy. I've given you Winterfell, the Twins, the Wall. Braavos is just one more place to add to that list, where Dany's memories place it in a situation of wealth. That makes it consistent within GRRMs writing, non-problematic.
2. Lemon trees in our own world are commonly found in places where they don't naturally grow, in climes similar to Braavos, because we are a wealthy society that has the time and space to care for them as needed. It naturally follows that a similar situation exists in ASoIaF, though only among the wealthy who have time and space - and this is backed up by the wide-ranging appearances of lemons in unnatural places.
3. Dany's memories of being in Braavos are backed up by other data points. Both her memories of what happened after they were kicked out of that house and the Sealord of Braavos and Willem Darry being signatures on the Pact with Dorne tie her to Braavos.
4. The lemon tree in her memories is memorable. That means it was an uncommon thing there, a bit out of place. Which fits with it being in an non-natural area in a wealthy mans garden.

1 and 2 together prove that the lemon tree being there is not an issue.
3 and 4 together back up it being in Braavos not anywhere else (where a lemon tree would be more natural).
 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Here's those quotes again. Arya says no trees, not the man.

AFFC Arya I

The city had seemed like one big island from where the Titan stood, but as Yorko rowed them closer she saw that it was many small islands close together, linked by arched stone bridges that spanned innumerable canals. Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

Arya is talking generalities here. She is not telling us there are no lemon trees (or other trees) in wealthy men's private gardens. She's looking at the outside of poorer-middle class people's houses. She's also factually incorrect, as there are tall pines on some of the fringe islands.

This does not indicate the thing that you are using it for.

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

TWOW Mercy 

  Hide contents

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

ASOS  Arya II

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

 So two very similar passages (geography, lemon trees, pomegranates, "fool"). If you want to dispute whether the old man was including trees in his answer, I base my interpretation on the similarity to the second passage which is def about trees and climate. 

 

 

You're responding to me like I'm full on lemongater and you're attributing things to me that I haven't said. Please reread my posts. I'm pointing out what doesn't add up, no idea what it means, though. Problems with Braavos doesn't mean it must be in Dorne. Which is what I've said from the start.

Sorry if I've done that. From my point of view, you are still claiming a lemon tree in Braavos to be "problematic", and pushing Dorne.
From my point of view, its utterly unproblematic and backed up by other data points as Braavos and not Dorne. 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I didn't say a Sealord wouldn't have space for a garden (nevermind that the rich person and Sealord theories have as shaky proof as the other options).

Its clearly a rich person, nothing shaky about that. I'm not subscribing it to any particular person, but its a big house with a private garden and servants. In a society like Braavos , with very limited space, a big house means lots of money, land with it even more, let alone the servants.

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My point was underlining the lack of trees in Braavos and then hinging Dany's story on a tree in Braavos is crap writing and undermining his own story. The undermining gets worse when there's Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons meaning there's a climate problem with them in Braavos, yet again Dany's backstory hinges on this. Even worse writing. Don't buy it. Something's up with it. 

My point is thats terrible logic. Everything is internally consistent within the world he's built here. Its not crap writing to be internally consistent.

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And on the lemon tree outside in a cold climate thing...found another problem. I'm sure you'll find a way to disagree. And your response will go back to what I've already stated I don't accept as if I never said that. This is so exciting isn't it? 

All three times Dany's lemon tree is mentioned, she brings up that it’s outside her window. That's important for some reason. 

Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree!

 

I suspect she didn't get out much. She only remembers the tree at all because it was outside her window. I don't see this as important, just realistic characterisation.

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Google potted lemon tree and you’ll see that they don’t get tall enough to be seen even outside a first floor window. Add to that land is a premium in Braavos thus buildings are tall in combination with bedrooms typically being on a second story or higher and you’ve got a mature outdoor lemon tree waaaayyyyy too big for a pot and in a climate where the years-long winter will kill it. Can't "tend" your way out of that.

 

I'm more familiar with lemon trees in private gardens in southern NZ. They range from bushes a metre or two high (still full of fruit) to small trees 3-5 metres in height with plentiful fruit. They are usually found in backyards as single trees, maybe 2-3, though when there is more than one tree they will usually be different types. Giving away a bag of lemons as a gift from your back yard is a common thing (and they are usually much juicier and tastier than commercial ones for some reason, though that may be the mind playing tricks). Anecdotally it seems to be only older houses in the 50+ year range that have them, perhaps when people spent more time on and in their backyards and gardens. 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

TWOW spoiler

  Hide contents

passage in the above Mercy chapter where lemongate could have cleared up with a single sentence, yet it was made worse: a statement questioning lemon trees in Braavos. Why???? Bad writing? Or intent to some ends? Just being a troll?

 

No, proper immersive reality. A grumpy guard (low status) isn't getting what he expected out of Braavos. Its pointed out that his expectations are of different places. Lemons are barely a side mention. Was that also a key clue about pomegranates? 
Note also, the statement did not address lemon trees at all. It was about bare-bellied women. The lack of orange trees were mentioned earlier. And lemons. limes and pomegranates (fruit, not trees), peppers and hot nights. 
I'll repeat, it was a general grouse that Braavos wasn't the hot place he was expecting. Lemons were not the feature, let alone lemon trees.

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And I won't read anymore replies where my inconvenient points are hacked out. Quote me in full if you want me to look at it. I'm tired of repeating myself.

I apologise if I hacked out inconvenient points. I addressed what seemed to me to be worth addressing. Its a bit wasteful to quote everything all the time - our posts by now would be screeds of old text with only a little new.
Also sometimes I accidentally delete a section (clumsy, trying to break up quotes to insert replies) and its not worth the effort to go back and reinsert it.

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7 minutes ago, corbon said:

Look, I clearly and explicitly don't think that. Please stop pushing that I do. 

We are in complete agreement that lemons, and even more so lemon trees, are not common outside of Dorne and other hot areas.

Where we are in disagreement is that you utterly ignore several important facts so that you can call a lemon tree in Braavos "problematic":

1.That lemons in ASoIaF are found in all sorts of places where they don't grow naturally, but always amongst the wealthy. I've given you Winterfell, the Twins, the Wall. Braavos is just one more place to add to that list, where Dany's memories place it in a situation of wealth. That makes it consistent within GRRMs writing, non-problematic.
2. Lemon trees in our own world are commonly found in places where they don't naturally grow, in climes similar to Braavos, because we are a wealthy society that has the time and space to care for them as needed. It naturally follows that a similar situation exists in ASoIaF, though only among the wealthy who have time and space - and this is backed up by the wide-ranging appearances of lemons in unnatural places.
3. Dany's memories of being in Braavos are backed up by other data points. Both her memories of what happened after they were kicked out of that house and the Sealord of Braavos and Willem Darry being signatures on the Pact with Dorne tie her to Braavos.
4. The lemon tree in her memories is memorable. That means it was an uncommon thing there, a bit out of place. Which fits with it being in an non-natural area in a wealthy mans garden.

1 and 2 together prove that the lemon tree being there is not an issue.
3 and 4 together back up it being in Braavos not anywhere else (where a lemon tree would be more natural).
 

Arya is talking generalities here. She is not telling us there are no lemon trees (or other trees) in wealthy men's private gardens. She's looking at the outside of poorer-middle class people's houses. She's also factually incorrect, as there are tall pines on some of the fringe islands.

This does not indicate the thing that you are using it for.

Sorry if I've done that. From my point of view, you are still claiming a lemon tree in Braavos to be "problematic", and pushing Dorne.
From my point of view, its utterly unproblematic and backed up by other data points as Braavos and not Dorne. 

Its clearly a rich person, nothing shaky about that. I'm not subscribing it to any particular person, but its a big house with a private garden and servants. In a society like Braavos , with very limited space, a big house means lots of money, land with it even more, let alone the servants.

My point is thats terrible logic. Everything is internally consistent within the world he's built here. Its not crap writing to be internally consistent.

I suspect she didn't get out much. She only remembers the tree at all because it was outside her window. I don't see this as important, just realistic characterisation.

I'm more familiar with lemon trees in private gardens in southern NZ. They range from bushes a metre or two high (still full of fruit) to small trees 3-5 metres in height with plentiful fruit. They are usually found in backyards as single trees, maybe 2-3, though when there is more than one tree they will usually be different types. Giving away a bag of lemons as a gift from your back yard is a common thing (and they are usually much juicier and tastier than commercial ones for some reason, though that may be the mind playing tricks). Anecdotally it seems to be only older houses in the 50+ year range that have them, perhaps when people spent more time on and in their backyards and gardens. 

No, proper immersive reality. A grumpy guard (low status) isn't getting what he expected out of Braavos. Its pointed out that his expectations are of different places. Lemons are barely a side mention. Was that also a key clue about pomegranates? 
Note also, the statement did not address lemon trees at all. It was about bare-bellied women. The lack of orange trees were mentioned earlier. And lemons. limes and pomegranates (fruit, not trees), peppers and hot nights. 
I'll repeat, it was a general grouse that Braavos wasn't the hot place he was expecting. Lemons were not the feature, let alone lemon trees.

I apologise if I hacked out inconvenient points. I addressed what seemed to me to be worth addressing. Its a bit wasteful to quote everything all the time - our posts by now would be screeds of old text with only a little new.
Also sometimes I accidentally delete a section (clumsy, trying to break up quotes to insert replies) and its not worth the effort to go back and reinsert it.

I'm not implying you personally think readers know medieval gardening and sorry if it came off that way. But it's the only thing that follows from treating a lemon tree in a rich person's garden in a cold climate as a normal thing without anything in the books indicating that this is normal. How would anyone know that unless told, and we're not told in the books in any way that's not deeply questionable along with other passages which cast serious shade on that. 

1.

No, lemons aren't always found only among the wealthy. And it doesn't follow that lemons = lemon trees. Why are you assuming trade and transport don't exist in Westeros? That's not true in the slightest. If you think the NW is wealth, I don't know what to tell ya. Mormont uses lemons every day in his bear which according you, should be phenomenally and outrageously expensive if going through them at that rate. No one wtf's Mormont's stunning luxury in the face of the living conditions of the rest of the NW or his competence at such waste which would be better spent on, well, all kinds of things as the NW is terribly poor and dilapidated. And the Mormonts are not rich enough to subsidize Jeor's lemon habit (remember Jorah and Lynesse?) Anguy expected them at the inn in the Riverlands. She doesn't tell him he's a fool for expecting them at the inn, but that he requests them in the Riverlands in the Fall. There's nothing in the text showing they're *only* for the wealthy. That also doesn't follow real world experience. Sailors get rickets if they don't get citrus and they're not getting citrus because they're poor, but because they're at sea. Maester Aemon says sickness comes with rarity of citrus (and fresh meat). So that we don't see this sort of sickness in Westeros means...

ADWD Jon II

"It was a long summer. The harvests were bountiful, the lords generous. We had enough laid by to see us through three years of winter. Four, with a bit of scrimping. Now, though, if we must go on feeding all these king's men and queen's men and wildlings … Mole's Town alone has a thousand useless mouths, and still they come. Three more turned up yesterday at the gates, a dozen the day before. It cannot go on. Settling them on the Gift, that's well and good, but it is too late to plant crops. We'll be down to turnips and pease porridge before the year is out. After that we'll be drinking the blood of our own horses."

"Yum," declared Dolorous Edd. "Nothing beats a hot cup of horse blood on a cold night. I like mine with a pinch of cinnamon sprinkled on top."

The Lord Steward paid him no mind. "There will be sickness too," he went on, "bleeding gums and loose teeth. Maester Aemon used to say that lime juice and fresh meat would remedy that, but our limes were gone a year ago and we do not have enough fodder to keep herds afoot for fresh meat. We should butcher all but a few breeding pairs. It's past time. In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war … it is still autumn, I know, but I would advise we go on winter rations nonetheless, if it please my lord."

So show a direct quote from the book that lemons are only for the wealthy. 

2.

There's nothing in the text about it being common for the wealthy to have lemon trees. And where I live (cold climate), I've never heard of a single person keeping a lemon tree up here. Not a one. They won't survive the cold. Never even seen a potted one. I did live in the deep south US at one point, and they were common there. 

 3.

I didn't say Dany was never in Braavos. Unless there's some explanation for the tree being in Braavos that I don't see at this point and hasn't been suggested yet (possible as there's so many holes in our info), then I think it's more likely Dany's been to two or more places and juxtaposed them. Braavos was one of them but nothing says for certain that Braavos was the only place. At this point, I see the tree pointing to Dany being somewhere before Braavos. The theory fits well given there's so much being held close to the chest surrounding the events around RR. 

4. 

Ok, what? The lemon tree was outside her window thus she looked at it all the time. That's why she remembered it. It would be especially memorable to a little child for the yellow fruit. I like trees. I remember them and I remember them from when I was little. They weren't different or remarkable, I just saw them a lot or played on them a lot. By that logic, why not remember a zoo? We don't only remember uncommon things.

No, Arya's not stating 100% no trees in Braavos. It's a way of saying that trees in Braavos are very rare. Serious question: why write no trees in Braavos and again cast shade on it in TWOW when you have an important tree in Braavos and no other credible significance to that lemon tree can be found? If you want to pass it off of GRRM undermining his own narrative, or being a bad writer, or forgot, or whatever, that's up to you. I'm not doing that. GRRM has forgot and made mistakes, but for this many pages this convoluted and intricate plot, they're pretty damned rare. 

1 hour ago, corbon said:
Quote

Yeah, I didn't say a Sealord wouldn't have space for a garden (nevermind that the rich person and Sealord theories have as shaky proof as the other options).

Its clearly a rich person, nothing shaky about that. I'm not subscribing it to any particular person, but its a big house with a private garden and servants. In a society like Braavos , with very limited space, a big house means lots of money, land with it even more, let alone the servants.

She def wasn't in a poor place. But servants, beams, and house with a red door don't mean Sealord-level rich. Especially as the servants stole from them ran away. Do you have text that it was a private garden? I don't recall that. 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:
Quote

My point was underlining the lack of trees in Braavos and then hinging Dany's story on a tree in Braavos is crap writing and undermining his own story. The undermining gets worse when there's Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons, Dorne/lemons meaning there's a climate problem with them in Braavos, yet again Dany's backstory hinges on this. Even worse writing. Don't buy it. Something's up with it. 

My point is thats terrible logic. Everything is internally consistent within the world he's built here. Its not crap writing to be internally consistent.

Only if you assume Dany's very young-child doubtful memories are absolutely indisputable proof. And if only the wealthy have lemon trees. And lemon trees can thrive in freezing temperatures. 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:
Quote

TWOW spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

passage in the above Mercy chapter where lemongate could have cleared up with a single sentence, yet it was made worse: a statement questioning lemon trees in Braavos. Why???? Bad writing? Or intent to some ends? Just being a troll?

 

 

No, proper immersive reality. A grumpy guard (low status) isn't getting what he expected out of Braavos. Its pointed out that his expectations are of different places. Lemons are barely a side mention. Was that also a key clue about pomegranates? 
Note also, the statement did not address lemon trees at all. It was about bare-bellied women. The lack of orange trees were mentioned earlier. And lemons. limes and pomegranates (fruit, not trees), peppers and hot nights. 
I'll repeat, it was a general grouse that Braavos wasn't the hot place he was expecting. Lemons were not the feature, let alone lemon trees.

The sentence can actually be parsed to read a number of ways. But mention trees + lemons + hot climate + Braavos is cold = lemon tree in Braavos is cast into doubt. Add a very similar second passage in ASOS and it becomes even clearer. There's a reason this keeps coming up and GRRM has egged it on and moreover, avoided easy opportunities to clear it up with Arya in Braavos. Add a very similar second passage in ASOS and it becomes even clearer. If you're a very literal reader, I can see where your interpretation makes sense, but very much disagree as I'm not strictly a literal reader and I don't see GRRM as strictly a literal writer at all, though his books well-written to be read at just a literal level. 

I envy you your lemon culture. I see where we're getting crossed interpretations. Lemon trees are sooooo every day for you, but utterly and completely foreign to me. To my point, I live in the Midwest US and GRRM is from NJ and lived in Chicago, so similar experience with lemon trees, as in they aren't around. The Dorne/lemons thing also tells me to see lemon trees in this context. We won't agree, here. 

I googled lemon trees planted in the ground, and they're much taller in the US than NZ, basically on par with other fruit trees, so this makes Dany seeing a tree large enough to be seen easily outside her window which can't survive the climate even more off. Even with modern technology, you can't protect a lemon tree of that size for a years-long winter. It has to be potted and brought indoors, but then it would be too small to be seen from a window. 

Also, I don't hold that the lemon tree is necessarily in Dorne, just a warmer climate like Dorne. 

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not implying you personally think readers know medieval gardening and sorry if it came off that way. But it's the only thing that follows from treating a lemon tree in a rich person's garden in a cold climate as a normal thing without anything in the books indicating that this is normal.

No its not. As I already pointed out, all mentions of lemons outside of warm southern climes are associated with wealth and power.

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How would anyone know that unless told, and we're not told in the books in any way that's not deeply questionable along with other passages which cast serious shade on that. 

Anyone who can read can see whats in the text.

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1.

No, lemons aren't always found only among the wealthy.

Outside of hot climes, yes they are. As I proved in detail.
The single exception proves the rule as Anguy has had lemons once in his life (which might have been further south anyway, as it was cooked by a Dornish girl).

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And it doesn't follow that lemons = lemon trees. Why are you assuming trade and transport don't exist in Westeros? That's not true in the slightest.

No, trade exists, and lemons are clearly traded. But its clear that lemons are a luxury item outside their natural areas. There is no reason why lemon trees can't exist outside their natural areas in ASoIaF exactly the way they do in ours. We are explicitly told there is one in Braavos, with multiple independent data points to back that up. 
We don't get detailed looks at any wealthy gardens or similar contents. The lack of visible (to us) lemon trees outside of their natural growing regions does not indicate they cannot be there, just that we haven;t seen any because they are irrelevant. But we do potentially see their effects. 

Why are you assuming that every instance of lemons outside Southern climes comes only from traded lemons?
Even home-grown lemons don't produce constantly.

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If you think the NW is wealth, I don't know what to tell ya. Mormont uses lemons every day in his bear which according you, should be phenomenally and outrageously expensive if going through them at that rate. No one wtf's Mormont's stunning luxury in the face of the living conditions of the rest of the NW or his competence at such waste which would be better spent on, well, all kinds of things as the NW is terribly poor and dilapidated. And the Mormonts are not rich enough to subsidize Jeor's lemon habit (remember Jorah and Lynesse?)

Well, whatever the reason, there it is.
Mormont uses lemons every day. But no one else at the NW does. He's the Lord Commander, and yes, poor or not overall, he's wealth and privilege.

This entirely supports my argument, and fails yours. The only one using them is wealth and privilege, showing they are ony available to wealth and privilege!

Its almost as if the NW, or someone relatively close, has a lemon tree or two somewhere where they get the LC's lemons from, rather than there being a huge store of expensive lemons exclusively reserved for the LC while the rest of the NW is excluded...

ETA: I'm not saying they do have a tree at the wall, I doubt it greatly, but it seems more than reasonable that they have a small source closer than Dorne.

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Anguy expected them at the inn in the Riverlands.

No, he did not. He wistfully recalled eating lemons once and hoped there might be some available in the stores.

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She doesn't tell him he's a fool for expecting them at the inn, but that he requests them in the Riverlands in the Fall.

Indeed. What a common (and war ravaged) inn would be doing with a luxury item like lemons, or lemon trees is ... just silly. And outside their growing season too.

Its almost like you are trying to make my argument for me. :)

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There's nothing in the text showing they're *only* for the wealthy.

Only every single use outside their natural areas.
As before, I've clearly delineated that this 'only for the wealthy' thing is limited to colder regions.

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That also doesn't follow real world experience. Sailors get rickets if they don't get citrus and they're not getting citrus because they're poor, but because they're at sea.

Don't they? We don't get any real information about sailors health, though I vaguely recall that was a feature of some parts of Fire and Blood (not searchable yet so I can't check.

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Maester Aemon says sickness comes with rarity of citrus (and fresh meat). So that we don't see this sort of sickness in Westeros means...

...that we don't see much of the sicknesses and health of the poor folk of westeros. Or even much of the rich folk of westeros, unless they are plot-relevant. 

Actually, as your quote shows, Maester Aemon says limes are a remedy for bleeding gums and loose teeth. It may well be that like parts of our world, there are other sources of vitamin C that people have access to. 

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ADWD Jon II

 

"It was a long summer. The harvests were bountiful, the lords generous. We had enough laid by to see us through three years of winter. Four, with a bit of scrimping. Now, though, if we must go on feeding all these king's men and queen's men and wildlings … Mole's Town alone has a thousand useless mouths, and still they come. Three more turned up yesterday at the gates, a dozen the day before. It cannot go on. Settling them on the Gift, that's well and good, but it is too late to plant crops. We'll be down to turnips and pease porridge before the year is out. After that we'll be drinking the blood of our own horses."

 

"Yum," declared Dolorous Edd. "Nothing beats a hot cup of horse blood on a cold night. I like mine with a pinch of cinnamon sprinkled on top."

 

The Lord Steward paid him no mind. "There will be sickness too," he went on, "bleeding gums and loose teeth. Maester Aemon used to say that lime juice and fresh meat would remedy that, but our limes were gone a year ago and we do not have enough fodder to keep herds afoot for fresh meat. We should butcher all but a few breeding pairs. It's past time. In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war … it is still autumn, I know, but I would advise we go on winter rations nonetheless, if it please my lord."

You see? The nights watch has limited limes (not lemons) for its common members, which ran out a year ago. 
But Mormont still has a lemon every day.
Wealth and power.

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So show a direct quote from the book that lemons are only for the wealthy. 

I've shown already that every single use of lemons in cold climes is by the wealthy. Lord Commander Mormont, the Stark family and there closest retainers (Sansa's friend Jeyne also loves lemoncakes I recall), Sweetrobin Arryn, a Frey knight, a big house in Braavos.

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2.

There's nothing in the text about it being common for the wealthy to have lemon trees. And where I live (cold climate), I've never heard of a single person keeping a lemon tree up here. Not a one. They won't survive the cold. Never even seen a potted one. I did live in the deep south US at one point, and they were common there. 

Well, we have different experiences. Would where you live be a continental clime, with longer deeper cold (regular deep snow) than Braavos has?
 

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 3.

I didn't say Dany was never in Braavos. Unless there's some explanation for the tree being in Braavos that I don't see at this point and hasn't been suggested yet (possible as there's so many holes in our info), then I think it's more likely Dany's been to two or more places and juxtaposed them. Braavos was one of them but nothing says for certain that Braavos was the only place. At this point, I see the tree pointing to Dany being somewhere before Braavos. The theory fits well given there's so much being held close to the chest surrounding the events around RR. 

So you are say that she remembers the tree in Braavos, the lemon tree was memorable (as opposed to common), she remembers wandering from Braavos to Myr to Tyrosh etc after being ejected from the house in Braavos, the Dornish pact places her in Braavos, but ... we are just going to move that house somewhere else because lemon trees aren't common in Braavos.
Despite zero other data points putting her elsewhere at this time.

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4. 

Ok, what? The lemon tree was outside her window thus she looked at it all the time. That's why she remembered it. It would be especially memorable to a little child for the yellow fruit. I like trees. I remember them and I remember them from when I was little. They weren't different or remarkable, I just saw them a lot or played on them a lot. By that logic, why not remember a zoo? We don't only remember uncommon things.

Well, you're arguing that she couldn't be (or is unlikely to be) in Braavos because the Lemon tree isn't native there.
If it was native there, it would be just another bush and would be less likely to be alone.

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No, Arya's not stating 100% no trees in Braavos. It's a way of saying that trees in Braavos are very rare. Serious question: why write no trees in Braavos and again cast shade on it in TWOW when you have an important tree in Braavos and no other credible significance to that lemon tree can be found? If you want to pass it off of GRRM undermining his own narrative, or being a bad writer, or forgot, or whatever, that's up to you. I'm not doing that. GRRM has forgot and made mistakes, but for this many pages this convoluted and intricate plot, they're pretty damned rare. 

Read your own words. "its not 100% no trees on Braavos...why write no trees in Braavos.."

I'm not passing it off as bad writing or a mistake. I explicitly explained why I think it fits perfectly. You claim you are not doing that but your whole argument is that its bad writing if the lemon tree is in Braavos.

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She def wasn't in a poor place. But servants, beams, and house with a red door don't mean Sealord-level rich. Especially as the servants stole from them ran away. Do you have text that it was a private garden? I don't recall that. 

A never mentioned the Sealord, except that the fact he signed the Dorish Pact shows it was done in Braavos.

You are right on their being no text indicating it was a private garden. OTOH we have these indications that there are no trees  (where they can be seen) in Braavos... :)

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Only if you assume Dany's very young-child doubtful memories are absolutely indisputable proof. And if only the wealthy have lemon trees. And lemon trees can thrive in freezing temperatures. 

No, everything is internally consistent. We aren't talking about proof, we are taking about consistency. We have a bunch of consistent things, and you are claiming they are not.

I know for a fact from personal experience that lemon trees can survive freezing temperatures. Trees outdoors, not potted plants carried indoors. They are often close to a building, perhaps drawing some warmth from that, I don't know. 
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-view-across-the-christchurch-meadow-in-the-snow-towards-university-22322273.html 
This is Christchurch. I lived with my Grandparents for nearly 7 years there. Nana has (had, they moved after the big quakes) two lemon trees in her backyard, the bigger of which was right outside my bedroom window. It produced a very large quantity of fruit.

Dunedin, the other place I lived and have mentioned here is several hundred miles south and significantly colder in general climate. Frosts are common in winter in both places, snow that settles, not so much. 

Braavos is a cold clime, generally cloudy and grey, often freezing rain (we call that sleet, its more common than snow) during autumn, though also crisp clear autumn days, and sometimes canals (which are relatively calm and still bodies of water) freeze over in winter. It seems not greatly different to southern NZ, where ponds and puddles freeze often in winter but rivers and sea don't.

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The sentence can actually be parsed to read a number of ways. But mention trees + lemons + hot climate + Braavos is cold = lemon tree in Braavos is cast into doubt. Add a very similar second passage in ASOS and it becomes even clearer. There's a reason this keeps coming up and GRRM has egged it on and moreover, avoided easy opportunities to clear it up with Arya in Braavos. Add a very similar second passage in ASOS and it becomes even clearer. If you're a very literal reader, I can see where your interpretation makes sense, but very much disagree as I'm not strictly a literal reader and I don't see GRRM as strictly a literal writer at all, though his books well-written to be read at just a literal level. 

I am a very literal person. And very logic oriented. Which is why I need there to be much better arguments on your side when I see everything perfectly internally consistent when taken literally. 
I see GRRM as a very very very good writer (none better in this way), who does better and more in depth quick characterisation than almost anyone else, due to his use of such details as these. Characters are more natural, have more depth in just a few words, due to the way he writes.
PLUS he can extend the details to uses of symbolism and similar extraordinarily well.

What I don't accept is when symbolism is used to deny clear textual evidence that has independent corroboration and no clear counter-evidence.

For me, the passages clearly show that lemons and lemon trees are common is warm climes and seen amongst the wealthy in colder climes everywhere. For there to be a singular, memorable, lemon tree in Braavos, in a wealthy setting, clearly matches the paradigm he has created and clearly matches our own world as well.

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I envy you your lemon culture. I see where we're getting crossed interpretations. Lemon trees are sooooo every day for you, but utterly and completely foreign to me. To my point, I live in the Midwest US and GRRM is from NJ and lived in Chicago, so similar experience with lemon trees, as in they aren't around. The Dorne/lemons thing also tells me to see lemon trees in this context. We won't agree, here. 

Right, I see I guessed right about where you might live too. Hope you and yours are coping with the weather if you are that far north.

We won't agree because to me the context for one in Braavos is perfect, and for you, utterly wrong. 

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I googled lemon trees planted in the ground, and they're much taller in the US than NZ, basically on par with other fruit trees, so this makes Dany seeing a tree large enough to be seen easily outside her window which can't survive the climate even more off. Even with modern technology, you can't protect a lemon tree of that size for a years-long winter. It has to be potted and brought indoors, but then it would be too small to be seen from a window. 

I don't think its fair to limit GRRM to a northern US appreciation of lemon trees. He lives in the south, and is a worldly man.

Its also worth remembering, for both of us, that Dany's childhood was originally set further south.

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Also, I don't hold that the lemon tree is necessarily in Dorne, just a warmer climate like Dorne. 

Sure. Its just that Dorne keeps coming up, so thats what gets argued. Plus others use that as a hingepoint for whacko theories that have no real data support.

 

Please see SFDanny's post in the other thread. That covers me feelings so much more succinctly. I get caught up in the detail argument because I hate bad argument, not because its important. 

Edited by corbon

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending her back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." 

  Reveal hidden contents

In Winds, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepare a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar, all for Alayne. "The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more." 

Run! Sansa, run!

Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes. In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ended up at her father's execution.

Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. On the night Daenerys was sold to the savage she smelled sweet lemon among other eastern scents. 

Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father. When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kid roasted with lemon. Poor Myrcella. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noblest lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls.

Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen? 

We see a lemon in one of the ancillary novellas too... When Dunk has a personal feast, feeling what it means to be a knight for the first time at the beginning of The Hedge Knight, he dines on lamb and an even better duck cooked with cherries and lemons and he quaffs it down with four tankards of a thick, nut brown ale. By the end of the novella, though, Prince Maekar had slain his brother, Baelor Breakspear, who died defending Dunk against Prince Aerion's accusations. 

Damn, lemons are a sour omen I suppose. Super cool observation and a very lovely list sir. I will add one more note. Not only is Tyrion served pie with lemon cream at the PW, but Joffrey actually died eating that pie slice, and I actually think the poison was in the lemon cream and meant for Tyrion, the lemon cream itself even being a hint.

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16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Even with modern technology, you can't protect a lemon tree of that size for a years-long winter.

 

I believe that you could do it fairly easily with a thick canvas pavilion and a charcoal filled brazier. It would burn for hours with little tending and keep the tree above the freezing level, which is all that is required. The cold itself isn't the initial culprit, it's the ice. If you can keep the tree ice free, it will last longer at lower temperatures. Braavos is cold, but even in winter it is noted that the canals only freeze occasionally, so the daytime temperatures probably remain near or above freezing and we have no idea of how the ocean currents might keep the place warmer as well during the harshest cold snaps. Realistically, if you have the means and the will, getting the tree enough sunlight is your biggest hurdle. No sunlamps yet.

Dany wasn't there during winter, so people, don't bother pointing out that she doesn't recall any tents in the yard. She makes no mention of weather at all IIRC. She actually doesn't state the size of the tree either, although from the use of the word tree, and not bush or plant, we can surmise that it is probably around seven or more feet tall.

This to me means that if Oberyn did bring the tree as a part of the marriage pact to Viserys, that it had to be a fairly well along sapling to begin with to have it grow that big in that cold climate in that relatively short time. The other option is that the tree was there and established already and if it has anything to do with reminding the children that they have friends in Dorne, it's because the house was chosen for the tree and that's why it was just a rental and not a gift or purchased; which would have made a ton more sense for the children's long term safety and upbringing.

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete
Noticed that spell check thought I meant bra, lol

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1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Dany wasn't there during winter

Yep. Folks should remember this, as it's pretty important! Her memories of Braavos are from late Spring and early Summer. There's no reason to suppose anything intricate would be needed to sustain a lemon tree in that climate. This is not the late Fall/early Winter of AFfC/ADwD. 

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20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

I envy you your lemon culture. I see where we're getting crossed interpretations. Lemon trees are sooooo every day for you, but utterly and completely foreign to me. To my point, I live in the Midwest US and GRRM is from NJ and lived in Chicago, so similar experience with lemon trees, as in they aren't around. The Dorne/lemons thing also tells me to see lemon trees in this context. We won't agree, here. 

I googled lemon trees planted in the ground, and they're much taller in the US than NZ, basically on par with other fruit trees, so this makes Dany seeing a tree large enough to be seen easily outside her window which can't survive the climate even more off. Even with modern technology, you can't protect a lemon tree of that size for a years-long winter. It has to be potted and brought indoors, but then it would be too small to be seen from a window. 

Also, I don't hold that the lemon tree is necessarily in Dorne, just a warmer climate like Dorne. 

I live in Wilmington DE, which is North of parts of southern NJ, cultivated lemon trees grow here, specifically on some of the old Dupont Estates that are now tourist attractions, the fruit dies in winter but not the tree. Also, NJ is a bit more of an agricultural powerhouse than those not from this region may realize, Jersey corn and  tomatoes are quite delicious and sought after actually.

I swear I'm not joking 

Edited by Back door hodor

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23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A mysterious hint about Dornish support is not needed as we were told about Dorne directly in Dany's first chapter of the first book. Viserys is exaggerating here to inflate his own sense of grandiosity, but the point remains. And it's the Dornish who are given a very specific reason for support. To underscore its import, we're told about Rhaegar/Lyanna and Westeros' revenge culture in the chapters which surround AGOT Daenerys I. 

AGOT Daenerys I

Her brother, sprawled out on his pillows beside her, never noticed. His mind was away across the narrow sea. "We won't need his whole khalasar," Viserys said. His fingers toyed with the hilt of his borrowed blade, though Dany knew he had never used a sword in earnest. "Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers. The realm will rise for its rightful king. Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children. And the smallfolk will be with us. They cry out for their king." He looked at Illyrio anxiously. "They do, don't they?"

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 Also, we don't find out until ASOS about lemons and Dorne, but the tree is only mentioned in AGOT and ACOK. Finding a clue in the lemon tree for what we've been told directly from the start only works on reread which most readers won't do. I'd consider that the tree tells us something of the nature of that support, but I don't see any symbolism around trees pointing to a marriage alliance. or much anything else. The Northerners marry around trees, but that doesn't apply here and that's not the primary association with trees. More than anything, it would point to "Dorne remembers" as trees are linked to memories and the past in the series. But we were already told that directly so why bother. 

Nice that you pointed this out but you're missing a crucial point: we are not told here that Dorne supports the Targs, we are told here what Viserys keeps rambling about. Meaning, the information is almost immediately dismissed because, Viserys. Yet, later on we find out that the part about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved is true, after all, and so is the part about Dorne's support which for a couple of books seemed nonexistent.

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41 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Nice that you pointed this out but you're missing a crucial point: we are not told here that Dorne supports the Targs, we are told here what Viserys keeps rambling about. Meaning, the information is almost immediately dismissed because, Viserys. Yet, later on we find out that the part about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved is true, after all, and so is the part about Dorne's support which for a couple of books seemed nonexistent.

I would add this part.

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"They had wandered since then from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one." (AGoT 36) bold emphasis added

By which we add the danger from Robert's spies and assassins to be figments of Viserys's paranoia and oversized sense of importance. But then we read this from the discussion between Ned and Robert when they ride among the barrows of the First Men.

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"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one can you?" he said quietly. 

The king's mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. "No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he's handed them over to the Dothraki. I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him." (AGoT 125) bold emphasis added

By which we know Robert knew how easy it would have been to assassinate the Targaryen children because he had spies watching them, but he was persuaded by Jon Arryn to not kill them at the time.

The pattern is clear. We are introduced to Viserys's stories early on in ways that make us, the readers, mistrust him as an unstable and unreliable source. We then later find out that not all of Viserys's stories are without merit. In fact, most of them have truth at their core.

Edited by SFDanny

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