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Legitimate_Bastard

Poll: Secret Stark Knights

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7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And all this talk of the Andals infiltrating customs to skew them as their own, or to minimize the old ways, etc, also seems to happen with the Night's Watch vows.

I was going to bring up the Night's Watch vows in my post earlier. 

At this point, it's like any vows that are any man swears. The Night's Watch is comprised of men who worship the old and the new gods and Cotter Pyke would be a worshiper of the Drowned God (and we also have followers of R'hllor now at the Wall).  

The maesters also have to take vows and while we don't know of any maesters from houses that keep the old gods, we know that Hoarfrost Umber sent his son to the Citadel to forge a chain. 

I think the key may be that they just swear by the old gods and the new.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

spoke a little bit about those other houses in the south who supposedly still follow the old gods. George apparently wanted to give more examples than just the Royces, and Ran drew up a list of houses in the south with no visible ties to the Seven. Those are not many houses, and certainly not a house as prominent as the Royces.

Blackwoods. And I agree with the last sentence. The Blackwoods are mentioned to follow the Old Gods several times, the same would be the case if that was true for the Royces as well.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nice one, @Alexis-something-Rose! I’ve read/listened to that chapter a million times but had forgot this bit of dialogue. 

On Rickard and/or Brandon being knights b/c “southron ambitions”... another thing besides the secrecy/lack of mention that makes it unlikely IMO is, what about the rest of the north? The Starks are the northern great house, WotN, etc. If there was a conspiracy, either the STAB alliance or something else, Rickard would still want the other northern houses and clans to remain loyal to WF. And I imagine the other houses in on it would want the same, as to be able to field the most men if push comes to shove. W/ that in mind, would it make sense for Rickard to basically piss off the vast majority of northerners? 

The following Northerners are said to be knights:

- Rodrik Cassel

- Kyle Condon

- Byam Flint

- Maynard Holt

- Donnel Locke
- Mallador Locke

- Lucifer Long (member of Windblown)
- Gareth Long (reign of Aegon III)

- Wylis Manderly
- Wendel Manderly
- Marlon Manderly
- Warrick Manderly (reign of Jaehaerys I)
- Medrick Manderly (reign of Aegon II)
- Torrhen Manderly (reign of Aegon II)
- Bartimus (serves Lord Wyman Manderly)

- Jorah Mormont

- Mark Ryswell

- Wynton Stout

- Theodan Wells

- Helman Tallhart

Not necessarily a who's who of houses, but I think the Lockes are worth noting, considering they were once First Men kings, and considering Lord Rickard's own mother was a Locke, as was Lord Cregan's grandmother (Lysa).

We also know that Rickard's aunt Jocelyn wed a Royce, a First Men family replete with knights, and that their three daughters wed families with knights (Corbray, Waynwood, Templeton).

And, of course, Rickard's great-grandmother was Lorra Royce, who was also the grandmother of his wife Lyarra, his father Edwyle, and his aunt Jocelyn.

Interestingly, the Hedge Knight graphic novels includes a Ser Bennifer Blackwood as the heir of House Blackwood in 209 AC, which would be right around the time of Lord Rickard's paternal grandmother Melantha.

Also interestingly, the MUSH lists Cregan's son Rickon as a knight, though this could certainly turn out to be inaccurate. Whatever the case, we know Rickon wed a Manderly, who worship the seven and produce knights, and we also know that Lord Beron's (who wed a Royce) elder brother Lord Rodwell wed a Manderly.

Which is all to say, I doubt Lord Rickard or Brandon would have converted to the Faith, but I don't think it's inconceivable that either of them might have become a knight anyway.

As a side note, a number of the current day knights from the North are in the Night's Watch (Byam Flint, Maynard Holt, Mallador Locke, Wynton Stout).

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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Chances are reasonably low that those Northmen where knighthood seems to be customary - the Cassels (Jory was supposed to become a knight) and Tallharts, for instance - were knighted on the battlefield or in a context where they were not trying to be part of the chivalric Andal tradition of the larger Realm.

The Faith may have taken roots in those places, perhaps because the men there like to travel south to compete in tourneys, perhaps because they intermarried to often with Andal houses, perhaps because septons and septas imported from White Harbor found too many converts there.

Jorah Mormont got an unusual battle knighthood which apparently had little to nothing to do with his personal religious beliefs, but there is no reason to believe this has to be the same with others.

Bran's eagerness to become a knight may have eventually extended to him also espousing the Seven, taking the entire Andal package, not just the knightly thing. He wanted to go down south, serve the king, and eventually become a Kingsguard.

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I don't know why this is a controversial issue.  Just like real life, I imagine there are many knights that are only nominally religious because it's convenient.  Don't see a problem that certain northerners decided to do the same thing because they wanted to be knights - especially because it's not like the old gods religion gives the impression of being very stringent anyway.

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37 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 Which is all to say, I doubt Lord Rickard or Brandon would have converted to the Faith, but I don't think it's inconceivable that either of them might have become a knight anyway.

I don't understand this idea that someone who keeps the old gods has to convert to the Faith in order to become a knight. This really doesn't compute with me. 

We saw some of the vows that were used in the Hedge Knight;

"In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave. In the name of the Father I charge you to be just. In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent. In the name of the Maiden I charge you to protect all women . . ." (The Hedge Knight)

But Beric when he knights Gendry uses something much more simpler and straight to the point.

This time the lightning lord did not set the blade afire, but merely laid it light on Gendry's shoulder. "Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of the gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?"
"I do, m'lord."
The Marcher lord moved the sword from the right shoulder to the left, and said, "Arise Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill, and be welcome to our brotherhood." (Arya VII, ASOS 39)

Nobody needs to convert to anything to become a knight. The vows are still similar in nature. It's the reference to the gods as more inclusive thing rather than being exclusive to those who follow the Seven that's different.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Nobody needs to convert to anything to become a knight. 

But it is more common that you do vows after a vigil in a sept, and you anointed by holy oils, etc.

Battlefield knighthoods are possible and do happen, but that's stuff for odd or gutter knights. Knighthood is part of the biography of the overwhelming majority of male nobles and royals, and they celebrate this. They do not just have some goon dub them a knight in the middle of nowhere after they have had said some words.

If there is a family where knighthood is prevalent it makes sense to assume that they do follow the Seven since we know that those who do not follow the Seven - like the Starks, Umbers, Boltons, Blackwoods, Glovers, etc. - do not have (m)any knights.

Knighthood and chivalry are a crucial part of Andal culture.

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't know why this is a controversial issue.  Just like real life, I imagine there are many knights that are only nominally religious because it's convenient.  Don't see a problem that certain northerners decided to do the same thing because they wanted to be knights - especially because it's not like the old gods religion gives the impression of being very stringent anyway.

If they wanted to be knights - and were not just knighted by the king and couldn't really do anything about that (as it happened with Jorah) - then they were obviously more interested in Andal culture than those who chose to be just powerful warriors without actually giving a damn about a Ser.

It doesn't mean you have to be particularly pious, but you also wouldn't have any issue with the Faith or the septons and septas and septs and the Seven if you actually cared to be a knight.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't mean you have to be particularly pious, but you also wouldn't have any issue with the Faith or the septons and septas and septs and the Seven if you actually cared to be a knight.

Yeah that's what I'm saying.  I don't have a hard time imagining many northerners - even Starks - were like BFD, and their main issue was just having to go through that stupid ritual.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Yeah that's what I'm saying.  I don't have a hard time imagining many northerners - even Starks - were like BFD, and their main issue was just having to go through that stupid ritual.

And that means that those Northmen where knighthood is part of their family traditions are closer to Andal culture and beliefs than the others. Else they would not care to be knights. This is pretty significant if you actually count the Northmen who are knights or who wanted to knights.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is more common that you do vows after a vigil in a sept, and you anointed by holy oils, etc.

And I agree with this. But Beric, a knight who is now a follower of R'hllor, offers an alternative to the vows we see in the Hedge Knight. 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is pretty significant if you actually count the Northmen who are knights or who wanted to knights.

I don't think it is.  It's just a facet of multiculturalism.

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54 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And I agree with this. But Beric, a knight who is now a follower of R'hllor, offers an alternative to the vows we see in the Hedge Knight. 

Beric was the weirdo leader of a new religious movement. He is not representative of how knighthood was dealt with before he defied death a couple of times. Beric likely could declared himself king or the living avatar of the Seven or R'hllor or all the gods of the world if he had wanted to do this. People who don't die don't have to stick to mortal rules.

54 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think it is.  It's just a facet of multiculturalism.

Knighthood is not something other cultures do. It is an Andal thing that's only practiced by Westerosi following Andal traditions.

It is a sign of one culture adopting customs and practices from another, and that seems to have been going on since the Conquest. Even before in the Manderly lands. Ser Bartimus brags about sticking to the old gods, but he is a Ser. You can do both, but if you do you nevertheless changed if you compare yourself to the people who do not want or think they need a Ser.

Brandon Stark looks down on the Northmen who are not knights, and that's not a coincidence. The chivalric traditions and customs of the Andals are much more attractive than whatever the First Men have to offer. And this shows. And it is not just with Bran that it shows. We also get it with Jon and Robb identifying with all the martial heroes of the united Realm, or with Arya naming her direwolf Nymeria. Songs and stories of all the Seven Kingdoms are seen as inspiring at Winterfell, not just whatever traditions the First Men have.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yeah that's what I'm saying.  I don't have a hard time imagining many northerners - even Starks - were like BFD, and their main issue was just having to go through that stupid ritual.

This is probably true in many ways. Remember when Ned was about to be beheaded and what he says vs what he means...

A Game of Thrones - Arya V

Her father raised his voice and began again. "I am Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King," he said more loudly, his voice carrying across the plaza, "and I come before you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men."

"NO," Arya whimpered. Below her, the crowd began to scream and shout. Taunts and obscenities filled the air. Sansa had hidden her face in her hands.

Her father raised his voice still higher, straining to be heard. "I betrayed the faith of my king and the trust of my friend, Robert," he shouted. "I swore to defend and protect his children, yet before his blood was cold, I plotted to depose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself. Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say: Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne, and by the grace of all the gods, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm."

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Knighthood is not something other cultures do. It is an Andal thing that's only practiced by Westerosi following Andal traditions.

:rolleyes:  Thanks for informing me.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a sign of one culture adopting customs and practices from another, and that seems to have been going on since the Conquest. Even before in the Manderly lands. Ser Bartimus brags about sticking to the old gods, but he is a Ser. You can do both, but if you do you nevertheless changed if you compare yourself to the people who do not want or think they need a Ser.

Yes.  This is exactly what I meant by multiculturalism.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Brandon Stark looks down on the Northmen who are not knights, and that's not a coincidence. The chivalric traditions and customs of the Andals are much more attractive than whatever the First Men have to offer. And this shows. And it is not just with Bran that it shows. We also get it with Jon and Robb identifying with all the martial heroes of the united Realm, or with Arya naming her direwolf Nymeria. Songs and stories of all the Seven Kingdoms are seen as inspiring at Winterfell, not just whatever traditions the First Men have.

Yup the tales of heroic knights are much more appealing than...I don't even know the comparison with the old gods.  I guess the lore of the Night's Watch, but that requires much (much) more of a commitment, and they're open to all religions anyway.  Again, that's why it's totally understandable that lots of northerners wanted to be knights.  Plus the prestige thing, and in most cases it probably gives you some social prestige that can help one's advancement, even in the north.

 

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No.  Metal armor has no religion.  It's purpose is to help you survive combat.  Squires have no religion.  Their purpose is to help warriors (typically armored ones) with the tasks that help them survive combat.

Tyrion was not a knight.  But he had metal armor and a squire.  Why?  Because he did not want to die, and could afford both.

Sandor was not a knight.  But he had metal armor and a squire.  For similar reasons. 

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1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Couple fence riders

:lol:

 

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