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Dragons 7th Eye

In your opinion - who are the smart people left?

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10 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Maybe he was toned down to make Cersei look better.

Part of Tyrion's loss of smarts was becoming a pacifist and then trying function as a wartime Hand.  Attempting to fight a war from the moral high ground.   Jorah would have been a much better Hand for the war against Cersei, had he been available.

Maybe. 

And you're right about that. It made me wonder where the Tyrion from Season 2 was. Though I guess he couldn't treat Slaver's Bay and whatnot like King's Landing. And I think he does have some divided loyalties re: his family. Even if he hates them, especially Cersei, they're still his family.

But he's much better at being a ruthless, pragmatic Hand than one attempting to do things from the moral high ground. But I also guess that's what's needed because we need someone to rein Dany in.

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9 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Maybe he was toned down to make Cersei look better.

Part of Tyrion's loss of smarts was becoming a pacifist and then trying function as a wartime Hand.  Attempting to fight a war from the moral high ground.   Jorah would have been a much better Hand for the war against Cersei, had he been available.

Tyrion was a very effective wartime Hand during the Battle of the Blackwater, including actually going to fight himself. 

He just sucks as Dany’s hand, because he’s been ruined by the show. Same with Varys. 

Jorah would have been a much better hand. He’s one of the few characters actually made more palatable by the show, probably because Iain Glen is a powerhouse.  

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Tyrion was a very effective wartime Hand during the Battle of the Blackwater, including actually going to fight himself. 

Point taken.  Tyrion wasn't a pacifist then.  Or didn't seem to be.  He was also on defense, with his back against the wall.

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3 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Point taken.  Tyrion wasn't a pacifist then.  Or didn't seem to be.  He was also on defense, with his back against the wall.

That was when Tyrion drank and knew things. Now he just drinks and forgets things. 

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48 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Tyrion was a very effective wartime Hand during the Battle of the Blackwater, including actually going to fight himself. 

He just sucks as Dany’s hand, because he’s been ruined by the show. Same with Varys. 

Jorah would have been a much better hand. He’s one of the few characters actually made more palatable by the show, probably because Iain Glen is a powerhouse.  

Agreed on all accounts. I don't give much thought to book Jorah, but in the show he might have been my favourite character. I also think it's because of Glen.

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32 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Agreed on all accounts. I don't give much thought to book Jorah, but in the show he might have been my favourite character. I also think it's because of Glen.

Jorah was always my favorite character, book and show, until I saw some pretty persuasive arguments that’s he’s actually kind of an awful person. 

He’s much more tolerable in the show. He’s also supposed to be fairly unattractive and Iain Glen does just a terrible job of being ugly lol. 

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9 hours ago, Maester Vargo said:

I think it's the Jon effect. Jon's "you know nothing Jon Snow" stupidity is toxic and infectious.  Everyone gets stupid when they get close to Jon. Not emotionally, just in the same general space.  

And I don't believe, not for a second, that Jon is anything but Ned Stark's kid.  The Stupid runs strong there. Unless Lyanna was also a moron. Then, maybe...

Team Stark: I'm with stupid

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Maester Vargo said:

I think it's the Jon effect. Jon's "you know nothing Jon Snow" stupidity is toxic and infectious.  Everyone gets stupid when they get close to Jon. Not emotionally, just in the same general space.  

And I don't believe, not for a second, that Jon is anything but Ned Stark's kid.  The Stupid runs strong there. Unless Lyanna was also a moron. Then, maybe...

Lyanna is a moron. She ran away with a married Prince. They got "married" and names their son Aegon when he already has son named Aegon. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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20 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Exactly the only thing his parents have influenced is his claim to the throne, everything else is Ned. That’s who raised him so he really is his ‘fathers’ son. 

I really do hope he finds a way for us to find something else in his character. 

Good point.  

Stupid Ned, Stupid Robb, Stupid Jon, Stupid Rickon.  If Bran wasn't 3EC, he'd be stupid too.  

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Posted (edited)

Qyburn, Cersei and Euron. Qyburn and Euron being smart doesn't bother me but Cersei becoming one of the smartest people in the show drives me crazy. Like not only is it very out-of-character for her to repeatedly outsmart and outmaneuver people who have shown themselves to be smarter than her but it's also a pretty damn big plot hole.  

Daenerys is dumb because she keeps taking the dumb advice of dumb people (Tyrion, AeJon) and allows people who are only slightly smarter than the dumb people (Sansa, Varys) undermine and scheme against her.

Davos' call for marriage between Daenerys and AeJon has been summarily ignored by the dumb people. And so now he's spending his time complaining about how he didn't get to kill Melisandre and how R'hllor abandoned them without so much as an explanation after saving them. Like that's pretty stupid. Like he literally can't complain about both and not be dumb.

Spectacularly, Bran seems to be okay with the fact that he is the dumbest of them not only because he chooses to be but because he allows everyone else to be stupid.

Everyone else is just dumb too.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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18 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Qyburn, Cersei and Euron. Qyburn and Euron being smart doesn't bother me but Cersei becoming one of the smartest people in the show drives me crazy. Like not only is it very out-of-character for her to repeatedly outsmart and outmaneuver people who have shown themselves to be smarter than her but it's also a pretty damn big plot hole.

It's not on screen and I don't think D&D intented it that way - since I am on the boat that Cersei is so smart because they love Lena Headey

But maybe it's because she has the last smart advisor left? Maybe it's not her as much as it is him? Ignoring his wonderful inventions like the Warp drive of the Outsider and Cloaking device of the Faceless man + the newest addition of S-400 Triumph of the Warrrior - has Qyburn ever set a foot wrong? Sure, the first anti aircraft system was a bit too modest in scale, but the concept was good - as we now know.

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17 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Eh. Jon is a nice guy, is brave and honorable and kind and good at rallying people and making them like him, but pretty crap at everything else. His intentions are always the best, and he’s humble. 

He’s not a good general, he’s not a great leader. He’d need help to be a good king. 

So.....basically, Jon is a leRobert Baratheon come again.

Oh happy day!

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15 hours ago, Maester Vargo said:

Good point.  

Stupid Ned, Stupid Robb, Stupid Jon, Stupid Rickon.  If Bran wasn't 3EC, he'd be stupid too.  

People sympathies a lot with the Stark's but generally I believe that's based on how the family was split apart and murdered which arguably calls upon empathy.

Yet one can't deny the fact that many of those characters called death upon themselves. You can't control the actions of others but they knew the repercussions and that wasn't enough to act as a deterrent.

The same costly mistakes are still lingering among the remaining Stark's, fortunately for them maybe there's not enough episodes left for it to cost them.

 

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Posted (edited)

Arya will surprise you all. The minute she hears about Gendry being Robert's son she decides to get him in bed. She'll bear his child, gets rid of any other person in line of succession above her baby (Gendry, too, *sniff*), gives birth to the Prince that was promised.

 

On 5/9/2019 at 5:17 AM, Pandean said:

...

Tyrion - I'm adding him because he was quite smart up until a few seasons ago. My theory is they toned down his smartness to make Dany look better or something. But I'm adding him because he was clever, cunning, and very book smart since the beginning despite how he is now.

...

Dany told Tyrion: "See, others can be smart, too." After what happens above she will have to take her words back because she legitimized Gendry.

 

On 5/9/2019 at 7:40 PM, Maester Vargo said:

Good point.  

Stupid Ned, Stupid Robb, Stupid Jon, Stupid Rickon.  If Bran wasn't 3EC, he'd be stupid too.  

Then to make Arya's child smarter, he will have to be pushed out the tower. It will become a tradition for all future Stark children.

Edited by Deminelle

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23 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So.....basically, Jon is a leRobert Baratheon come again.

Oh happy day!

Robert is the polar opposite of Jon in every way! At least, Jon as we know him. 

Can you imagine Jon being openly unfaithful to his wife, or forcing her brother to stand watch while he does it? Or getting drunk at a feast and groping a serving girl in full view of everyone? 

He was already well-known before the rebellion for being a womanizer and had several bastards, which is partly Lyanna hated the idea of marrying him. 

He was a good fighter, and was at least loyal to his friends. Other than that, he was pretty much the worst. 

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22 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Robert is the polar opposite of Jon in every way! At least, Jon as we know him. 

Can you imagine Jon being openly unfaithful to his wife, or forcing her brother to stand watch while he does it? Or getting drunk at a feast and groping a serving girl in full view of everyone? 

He was already well-known before the rebellion for being a womanizer and had several bastards, which is partly Lyanna hated the idea of marrying him. 

He was a good fighter, and was at least loyal to his friends. Other than that, he was pretty much the worst. 

I meant to say a military weaker, less fun version of Robert Baratheon.

Robert Baratheon was also fun to be around and a powerhouse on the battlefield, which made him even more fun to be around. Jon is neither of those things. That's part of Robert's charm and his claim to fame. The only people who seem to really like Jon are the wildlings and they aren't quite...reliable sources.

No, you're right. I can't imagine Jon being openly unfaithful to his wife.

But I can imagine Jon knowing f--k all about what is happening right under his nose. Like Robert. We saw it first at Castle Black and then at Winterfell. Repeatedly.

And I can imagine Jon zoning out, passing off hard decisions on people more unscrupulous than he and allowing them to seize control in the vacuum. Like Robert. We saw this happen in Winterfell.

Oh and I can definitely imagine Jon's inability to grasp the fact that certain things are best left unsaid getting him and people around him into trouble. Just like Robert. We saw this happen in King's Landing last season but also more recently in Winterfell.

Did I mention that Jon has a habit of frustrating his siblings beyond comprehension to the point where they neither respect nor trust him? Again...like Robert. We saw this happen in not only Winterfell but when he and Sansa were trying to take back Winterfell and save Rickon.

The only way that Jon could be a good king is if he had a lot of help from some really good people. Tyrion is terribly unqualified, Varys is ticking time bomb, Davos is but one man and Sansa seems to be easily ignored and readily dismissed by Jon.

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2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I meant to say a military weaker, less fun version of Robert Baratheon.

Robert Baratheon was also fun to be around and a powerhouse on the battlefield, which made him even more fun to be around. Jon is neither of those things. That's part of Robert's charm and his claim to fame. The only people who seem to really like Jon are the wildlings and they aren't quite...reliable sources.

No, you're right. I can't imagine Jon being openly unfaithful to his wife.

But I can imagine Jon knowing f--k all about what is happening right under his nose. Like Robert. We saw it first at Castle Black and then at Winterfell. Repeatedly.

And I can imagine Jon zoning out, passing off hard decisions on people more unscrupulous than he and allowing them to seize control in the vacuum. Like Robert. We saw this happen in Winterfell.

Oh and I can definitely imagine Jon's inability to grasp the fact that certain things are best left unsaid getting him and people around him into trouble. Just like Robert. We saw this happen in King's Landing last season but also more recently in Winterfell.

Did I mention that Jon has a habit of frustrating his siblings beyond comprehension to the point where they neither respect nor trust him? Again...like Robert. We saw this happen in not only Winterfell but when he and Sansa were trying to take back Winterfell and save Rickon.

The only way that Jon could be a good king is if he had a lot of help from some really good people. Tyrion is terribly unqualified, Varys is ticking time bomb, Davos is but one man and Sansa seems to be easily ignored and readily dismissed by Jon.

Ah, ok, well in that case I agree lol. 

Robert was a good fighter, but not much for generalship overall, though. He relied on Ned and Jon Arryn to make the strategic decisions. 

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