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They ruined Jaime once and for all

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Jaime could possibly to back to Cersei for a whole different reason, and only at the end after seeing her break down, remember his love and so sympathize with her. It should NOT be the reason for him to start his journey back, more of an impulse of the moment.

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Jaime was the first character they ruined and that happened a long time ago imo. As soon as he arrived back in kings landing before the Sansa-Tyrion wedding instead of after it he became a completely different character from the books since he immediately broke his vows again. It was a great pity because I felt the actor really nailed the character up until that point.

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I had originally thought Jaime would become the queenslayer by killing Cersei to put an end to her rule and then commit suicide by throwing self off a tower because he still truly loved her. A tragic figure.

The actual story still works for me.  He had fought Daenerys after Highgarden and knew the awsome power of her dragon.  He knew Cersei would most likely die and he went back to be with her anyways.  He was not going back to fight for her.  Perhaps, there was a faint hope of saving her, further reinforced by Tyrion's help, but the reality was he wanted to be with her if she died. So his final act does not diminish his redemption over the last 4 or 5 seasons.

In my view, he had a pity fuck with Brienne.  He did it when he found out she was still a virgin and he had to get pretty drunk to go through with it. Once sober, he knew he had to be with is true love even if it meant the end of them both.

BTW, I loved the contrast of the two brother relationships Lannister vs Clegane in the episode.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, DirePenguin said:

I could not comprehend that part. Why would the Mountain wanted to face him... Sandor was the one holding grudge, him heading back to face his bro did not make sense but it least it was not totally out of the blue. Gregor abandoning Cersei to face him tho. Just why. Why would he even care. Sandor was just another flea for him.

Guess he was just tired of being annoyed by the flea and wanted it gone once and for all? I think he just wanted to put Sandor in his place. It was an arrogance thing.

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17 hours ago, Greywolf2375 said:

and if GRRM ends Jaime's arc the same way, I'll say the same thing about it then as well.

If he does, I swear, I'll burn the whole book series myself.

I've never harmed books in my life. It's a good way to start.

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1 hour ago, funpig said:

He knew Cersei would most likely die 

No, he didn't. That's what sooo cruel and what brought the character back to Season 1: In this last disgraceful episode he said Tyrion that Cersei might win. Dany lost a dragon. He decided to go back to his sister because he heard what happened to Dany in Dragonstone. He goes back to the point that: "A Lannister doesn't stay on a losing side of the war". He fights for the winners. This is regression.

1 hour ago, funpig said:

In my view, he had a pity fuck with Brienne.  He did it when he found out she was still a virgin and he had to get pretty drunk to go through with it.

The show makes it see it this way, destroying the best of a friendship that inspired and changed both and that was well written until episode 3. They were both drunk and went for it. Even though I suspect the only reason they ruined Brienne's arc as well is becasue they wanted to make her a mother. The life she chose, so unconventional for a woman, cannot satisfy her like motherhood can. "So, let's give her a pity f**k as consolation prize for good services to the realm."

Very original. Thank you D&D

So far for feminism in GOT.

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I don't think "pity fuck" is fully accurate. But Brienne is the 2nd person he's ever had sex with. With proper storytelling, that could be a proper catalyst to make him want to return to his "true love." Not justifying the choice at all, but I can see a viable human story there.

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16 hours ago, Lady Dayne said:

I don't think it was out of character for Jaime to run back to Cersei. They're twins, and that's a powerful connection. They have a long history together, as well as three (now dead) children. We all know people in toxic relationships in real life who can't break away from each other. I don't think he ever loved Brienne in a romantic way (their hookup should never have happened). He respected her. While I did find their death scene a bit anticlimactic, I didn't think it was out of character for Jaime to reunite with Cersei.

Exactly. It was not out of character at all! He might have hated Cersei at times but he always loved her and she was always the biggest thing in his life. Their ending makes perfect sense.

He wasn't an innocent golden boy. He'd done lots (LOTS) of bad things. Just because he has some self-awareness did not mean he had a permanent change of character. This was a believable end to his story.

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For 8 years, I always liked Jaime Lannister. I admired NCW´s art of acting. In episode 2 Jaime and Brienne made me cry and cry and cry.

And then I watched Jaime´s death and I felt - nothing. Nothing at all.

(The same with watching the destruction of KL: No emotions. They just tried far too hard.) 

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Posted (edited)

Just a thought. If Jaime really pity kill Cersei, it would be really bittersweet if he got praised through out the Kingdom for that. When he killed Aerys he got shamed and reminded repeatedly of it and he had to live with it. Then when he actually killed Cersei it broke his heart but people kept praising him and reminding him and he had to live with it yet again.

Edited by DirePenguin

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These are GRRM words about Jaime and Redemption:

Quote

"One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible?

"How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you’re a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard?"

"I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what’s the answer then?"

(https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1125177/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-Jaime-Cersei-death-end-book-HBO-show-die-kill-iron-throne)

The writer of the article then gives one possible explanation that, in the show, would make sense if explored just a little more:

"[...] redemption and forgiveness for either twin seems unlikely - from others and from themselves.

It is more likely Jaime has recognised that he will never find peace with everything he has done in his life. If Cersei is defeated and sentenced to death or prison, it seems likely Jaime will kill his sister and himself to end both their suffering and remove them from a world that could never accept them or give them peace. "

So, his words "she's hateful and so am I" really tells it all. He hates himself, but he is defined by Cersei in the end. Outside her influence he feels he's nothing. Just another guy. He's a bit in love with his legend as Kingslayer, I think. A rather narcissistic trait.

I hate how the show made us believe otherwise,  how they developed Jaime and Brienne story as a quest for finding the true self, going beyond the mask, finding forgiveness in most uncommon places... and destroy it all, making it look filthy.

Make him kill Cersei and himself, them. Make him die fighting the WW. But not like this, escaping like a rat to save his neck and Cersei's. That was unworthy. For Cersei, too.

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I haven't commented on here for years (though I lurk daily!). But this... the guy who killed Aerys to save innocents from burning, thus earning his infamous title, actually said he didn't 'care much about innocents' in this episode. I won't even bother listing everything else that was shit about his arc/end (he should've killed Cersei, the crap with Brienne who deserves far better) - just this most fundamental aspect of who Jaime is, what motivates him, was ruined with a casual line in literally the 2nd last episode of the series. 

This is how well the producers know and respect this story and its characters. Laughable. 

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10 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

These are GRRM words about Jaime and Redemption:

(https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1125177/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-Jaime-Cersei-death-end-book-HBO-show-die-kill-iron-throne)

The writer of the article then gives one possible explanation that, in the show, would make sense if explored just a little more:

"[...] redemption and forgiveness for either twin seems unlikely - from others and from themselves.

It is more likely Jaime has recognised that he will never find peace with everything he has done in his life. If Cersei is defeated and sentenced to death or prison, it seems likely Jaime will kill his sister and himself to end both their suffering and remove them from a world that could never accept them or give them peace. "

So, his words "she's hateful and so am I" really tells it all. He hates himself, but he is defined by Cersei in the end. Outside her influence he feels he's nothing. Just another guy. He's a bit in love with his legend as Kingslayer, I think. A rather narcissistic trait.

I hate how the show made us believe otherwise,  how they developed Jaime and Brienne story as a quest for finding the true self, going beyond the mask, finding forgiveness in most uncommon places... and destroy it all, making it look filthy.

Make him kill Cersei and himself, them. Make him die fighting the WW. But not like this, escaping like a rat to save his neck and Cersei's. That was unworthy. For Cersei, too.

So basically the following article is the OPPOSITE of what GRRM is saying? Alrighty then. Totally logical ending.

/sarcasm off

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12 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

The show makes it see it this way, destroying the best of a friendship that inspired and changed both and that was well written until episode 3. They were both drunk and went for it. Even though I suspect the only reason they ruined Brienne's arc as well is becasue they wanted to make her a mother. The life she chose, so unconventional for a woman, cannot satisfy her like motherhood can. "So, let's give her a pity f**k as consolation prize for good services to the realm."

Very original. Thank you D&D

So far for feminism in GOT.

Awww, did your feminism get hurt by a woman being a mother? It's so terrible for a woman not to be childless. Only that is true feminism! She'd be so happy in her old age without children, she can sit there and read feminist hate literature to keep her warm. Great end.

How bad that they gave the Lannisters a chance to live on through a new child. Terrible writing! With Brienne of the small island Tarth becoming the mother of said child, who'll inherit the richest province, I'd think your feminism should be satisfied. But, not when it happens through a child, I guess. Nobility having children that change things like inheritance and alliances is a well-known feature of Medieval times, but - feminism! She must swing a sword only!

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, funpig said:

I had originally thought Jaime would become the queenslayer by killing Cersei to put an end to her rule and then commit suicide by throwing self off a tower because he still truly loved her. A tragic figure.

The actual story still works for me.  He had fought Daenerys after Highgarden and knew the awsome power of her dragon.  He knew Cersei would most likely die and he went back to be with her anyways.  He was not going back to fight for her.  Perhaps, there was a faint hope of saving her, further reinforced by Tyrion's help, but the reality was he wanted to be with her if she died. So his final act does not diminish his redemption over the last 4 or 5 seasons.

In my view, he had a pity fuck with Brienne.  He did it when he found out she was still a virgin and he had to get pretty drunk to go through with it. Once sober, he knew he had to be with is true love even if it meant the end of them both.

BTW, I loved the contrast of the two brother relationships Lannister vs Clegane in the episode.

 

 

If it was just a pity fuck he wouldn’t have been jealous of Tormund. Also he slept with Brienne more than once and seemed happy with her. Tyrion said as much. 

Edited by Snormund

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57 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Awww, did your feminism get hurt by a woman being a mother? It's so terrible for a woman not to be childless. Only that is true feminism! She'd be so happy in her old age without children, she can sit there and read feminist hate literature to keep her warm. Great end.

How bad that they gave the Lannisters a chance to live on through a new child. Terrible writing! With Brienne of the small island Tarth becoming the mother of said child, who'll inherit the richest province, I'd think your feminism should be satisfied. But, not when it happens through a child, I guess. Nobility having children that change things like inheritance and alliances is a well-known feature of Medieval times, but - feminism! She must swing a sword only!

If my writing made you believe for one second that I am a feminist, think again. I am a woman who doesn’t feel represented by a group nor feminist ideals. The choices every woman makes for herself are hers alone. 

I am not judging women in real life who decide to have children and I would encourage you to do the same: do not “classify” or pretend to know those who criticize a fictional character from a narrative perspective.

I am critical against the possible (I do not really know if this is how it ends) development of a character which has been written clearly in defiance of conventions and that has been taken as example of feminism and power woman by the authors themselves (not by me) only to give her the (possible) most conventional end of all: abandoned, heartbroken and (possibly) pregnant. 

This ^ is what I criticize.

She’ll have to be happy with the only thing she could get from the  man she loved because her looks in the end will always prevent her to have more. She is “unlovable” only because she’s ugly. That’s Brienne in this show.

Great end. Sure.

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16 hours ago, Demetri said:

I don't think "pity fuck" is fully accurate. But Brienne is the 2nd person he's ever had sex with. With proper storytelling, that could be a proper catalyst to make him want to return to his "true love." Not justifying the choice at all, but I can see a viable human story there.

Agreed.

Jaime had only been with one woman up to that point, his sister and love, Cersei. Jaime even brags of it to Catelyn Stark in Season 2.

"I've never been with a woman but Cersei. So in my own way, I have more honor than poor old dead Ned."

Jaime sleeps with Brienne in a half drunken stupor. The GUILT of his infidelity leads Jaime directly back into Cersei's arms. It is perfectly in character. 

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This was the one part of the episode that I was furious at - the rest, no matter how rushed, simplistic or unearned, feltvtrue to me. This didnt. I’m big mad & sad about it. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 1:22 AM, Quillon said:

Jaime's redemption arc was rather short in the show, in the books he's set on the path right after Tywin's death, in the show... well since last season's ending. So I can understand why it ended this way for show Jaime but if it will be the same in the books, GRRM will have to do some convincing :P

ed: And I mean the literal path that quickened the figurative path to redemption :P otherwise he's been on the path since his hand cut off probably.

I saw Jaime as redemptive from season Three, when he got his hand cut off and twice saved Brienne, to season Four, when he gave in to Tywin to save Tyrion then freed Tyrion. He was a totally different character compared to season One Jaime, that cocky sunnuva.

He backslid seasons Five to Seven, but so did the show as a whole frankly. Finally he broke free at the end of Seven, only to plummet into a black hole.

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Jaime Lannister's Entry in The Book of Brothers (The White Book):

"Squired for Barristan Selmy against the Kingswood Outlaws. Knighted and named to the Kingsguard in his sixteenth year for valor in the field. At the Sack of King's Landing murdered his king, Aerys the second, at the foot of the Iron Throne. Pardoned by King Robert Baratheon. Thereafter known as the Kingslayer."

Sadly, this loose thread from Season 4 will never be resolved. The White Book was probably lost due to Daenerys's burning of King's Landing.

What were Jaime's great deeds after acquiring the Kingslayer name?

Saved half a million lives by preventing the Mad King Aerys from burning King's Landing with wildfire. Sacrificed his sword hand to save Brienne from rape by Locke's men. Saved Brienne from the bear. Gave Brienne Oathkeeper. Knighted Sir Brienne of Tarth. Slayed Euron Greyjoy. 

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