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Hodor's Dragon

"Bittersweet" can't happen in the show

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3 minutes ago, ummester said:

No, I don't believe that - many had been discussing on this very forum, for years, that she was set up as a devil in disguise. Of course there were theories about everyone turning bad and having secret identities - but evil Dany was fairly mainstream.

You missed my point entirely...

People discussing what her endgame is one thing.
Ultimately those who said "she's gonna go evil" where proven right, so of course they will go down the "I told you so"-route.
But they could've just as easy been proven wrong if Daenerys hadn't gone down this route (which was just as likely, if not more), and if that was her endgame, then everyone who's recently been all in flames about "the signs of evil where there all along" would shut up, because they would instead be proven wrong.

Or do you really think that people would continue to make theories and claims about Daenerys going evil if she ultimately ends the show as a good person? If you don't, then you see what I'm getting at. 

 

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:



I can't see any possible way for GoT to come remotely close to this however, given the current circumstances, unless GRRM and D&D's definition of bittersweet is a kin to "well not everone died..."

No, I think they are fooling us all together with bittersweet endings and such, as it happened with fantasy elements, that after all were a nice background. Perhaps it was a way for Martin to bring in readers/viewers from Tolkien and in order to do so, he promised something he wasn't even closed at finishing. 

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4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

As for the ending as a whole, I too am firmly of the belief that we're past bittersweet at this point.
Unless there's some amazing final twist, then we're heading towards a full-blown nihilistic tragedy.

Ultimately this is fiction made for us, so how the audience reacts to the ending is way more important than how the faceless masses in Westeros reacts to the ending. We care about the characters in the story, not about the peasants having a happy ever after. 

Considering how Season 8 as gone out of it's way to make more or less all of the characters (including those who died last episode) either dislikable, totally void of character (including the personality that once made us care about them) or having their personality do a 180 so they become someone else entirely, it's hard for me to feel anything for these characters at this point:

- Jon? Mr Wood. Totally void of character and feelings. He has barely behaved like a human being this entire season. I re watched some of his scenes from the earlier seasons, and except for looking the same, it might has well been an entirely different character. I genuinely cared about Jon and his plights at one point. What happened?

- Sansa? Littlefinger 2.0 aka whiny bitchface. The last two seasons managed to make me go from pitying Sansa for everything she's been trough and ultimately want her a happy ending, to outright dislike her. I'm gonna be genuinely annoyed if she get's a happy ever after where she will just smirk and tell everyone "ToLD YoU sO". 

- Arya? It's a fine line between being a badass and being an ass, and Arya has been on the ass-side more than not lately. I don't mind her killing the NK that much (even if it takes away a huge part of Jon's story arc), but I do mind her having plot armor thicker than Balerions skull. Her character is also all over the place, she continuously switches between "family matters the most" to "I'm gonna kill people" in 5 minute-intervals. Make up your mind already! I felt nothing for her plights in KL last episode because I "knew" she would survive, and even if she hadn't, my reaction would've been a mere "...eh?".

- Bran? :| 

- Tyrion? Was my favorite character from S1-S5. Now you can throw him in the same "Not the same person as the one I once liked"-bin together with so many other characters. Seriously, when did Tyrion became a idiotic foolish pacifist and why? Once upon a time the prospect of him dying would've upset me. Now I couldn't care less. After Daenerys forced change in character, this guy is the second biggest reason we're heading towards a shit ending.

- Davos? I've always liked Davos. Now in S8 he's been nothing more than glorified extra that went from being Jon's right hand man (without a title) to serving soup to peasants. Seriously, has he said anything clever this whole season that ultimately lead to some sort of payoff? The writers clearly don't know what to do with him, and it shows. He should've died defending Winterfell.

- Jamie? Went from being one of my favorites for several seasons right back to being the guy I disliked in S1-S2 in less than one episode. His redemption-arc intrigued me, I rooted for him, he was interesting. Then when he died I felt absolutely nothing for the character. What was the moral of his story? "We are who we are and nothing can change that"? Talk about depressing...

- Varys? Also been a long standing favorite of mine, but in his last moments (last 2-3 seasons in general) he became a glorified extra. Ultimately he also died an idiot. Seriously, Varys was considered to be the Spider, one of the smartest men in Westeros and he... openly talks about betraying Daenerys and Jon being the rightful king while still being on her island, and tries to have Daenerys killed before the war against Cersei is even won? How did he expect Jon and the northerners to win without the Dothraki, Unsullied and Drogon? Tyrion and Varys clearly should've avoided each other because apparently they suffer intelligence-drain when they are alone with each other.

- Bronn? "Bronn finally snaps and is tired of empty promises from the Lannister-brothers, so he punches Tyrion in the face, threatens to kill them both, and then leaves, satisfied with ...another empty promise". Bronn is also one of those characters I enjoyed and who's death once would upset me. Now I no longer care. Fuck the guy. His arc should've ended with Lolys(?). 

- Sam? Never really cared much for him nor his relation with Gilly. He was annoying in the first seasons (I did pity him however) and then he became an exposition machine alongside Bran. Only Arya has thicker plot armor than him. I don't actively dislike the guy however, so I don't mind him surviving with Gilly - I just don't really care. 


- Sandor? One of the few characters on the show who died being true to his character from the earlier seasons. His death was ultimately pointless since the Mountain would've died anyway. I liked the character up to the point he died, but ultimately I felt more or less nothing. Throw him in the depressing "We are who we are and no agency can ever change that"-bin alongside Jamie and Daenerys. 

- Daenerys? Still one of the few character in the show I actually care about, but instead of feeling "Fuck yes Khaleesi!", I now mostly feel a sad, hollow, pitiful "Oh Daenerys...not like this". Character assassination 101, worse than Jamie. I'm not gonna go into much depth about how I consider her turn from "Good Mhysa" to "Evil Psychopath" to be laughably rushed, forced, contrived, and completely unjustified (foreshadowing is not character development) because I've written so much on that topic already. Needless to say, that having Daenerys purposefully killing thousands of innocents civilians and throwing her entire 7 season long Mhysa-arc in the flames is the biggest (and also the stupidest) gut punch this show has ever delivered. 


So yeah, ultimately I feel very little or nothing for more or less all of the "good" characters that remained in the show at the start of episode 5. They are more or less all so very far from the people they once where, and neither has changed for the better, so of course I care less, because I feel like I barely know these characters anymore, despite having spent 8 seasons with some of them.

I imagine it will be hard for me to get a satisfying ending when I no longer care about what's going on, because the immersion broke way before the credits will start to roll anyway.

Full-blown tragic, nihilistic ending without a satisfying payoff it is...

Couldn't have said it better myself. This season has done the opposite of what it should have done, it's completely drained me and made me disappointed since the first episode. Characters becoming something they never were, done a complete turn in personality and it's not even done yet. They have yet to completely take away the honor of Jon Snow, close Bran in the most horrible way, have Bronn becoming what he always resented and more. 

 

It's truly sad, because when you have something that could easily have been done in a similar way, but so much better and with true satisfaction, it truly is a tragedy. The ending could have been similar with satisfaction, but now, because they annihilated every character on the show - CLOSING their arcs in ways that couldn't, shouldn't and never would have happen ever. It's just sad. I honestly think this will go with me for quite some time, Never trusting another show again...Unless it's Anime.   

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3 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think this is the perfect example of the ending that a character deserves, rather than a bittersweet one. Gollum in the end gets exactly what he has craved all this time, the ring, but he dies. There's a word for this I can't remember right now. I don't think that you can say he saves the world, the world gets saved by chance, considering he was just being very selfish in that moment as he has been all his life. 

I thought the end of Harry Potter was kind of bittersweet, considering all the people who die and all who do get to live. And the story of Darth Vader has a beautiful, bittersweet, and a well deserved ending.  Also, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna within ASOIAF is a great example of bittersweet. They end up together, but have to die for it. But all of it was not in vain as the testament to their love, Jon, survives. 

Perhaps that's the moral of the story: the throne survives... :rofl:

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22 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring. And just before that Frodo had already burned half the middle earth, ending worst threat than Saouron. 

After his death a council is summoned where Sarouman tells Galdaf he was right all along for Frodo and Galdaf should have never trusted him (?) :bang:  :shocked: 

That's not even tragic, that's twisted, if not a pure comedy of itself. 

Yeah that's a pretty good (and sad) analogy between what we got in LotR and what we're currently getting in GoT.

Daenerys could've easily gone the path of both Frodo and Thorin (i.e. turning evil for a very short time, before ultimately coming back to the light thanks to the actions of someone else. Thorin just like Daenerys sure showed hints of ruthlessness and paranoia), but neither Frodo nor Thorin turned into a psychopathic mass-murderer during their short time as evil.
 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

You missed my point entirely...

People discussing what her endgame is one thing.
Ultimately those who said "she's gonna go evil" where proven right, so of course they will go down the "I told you so"-route.
But they could've just as easy been proven wrong if Daenerys hadn't gone down this route (which was just as likely, if not more), and if that was her endgame, then everyone who's recently been all in flames about "the signs of evil where there all along" would shut up, because they would instead be proven wrong.

Or do you really think that people would continue to make theories and claims about Daenerys going evil if she ultimately ends the show as a good person? If you don't, then you see what I'm getting at. 

 

Yea, I see what you are getting at.

I guess people would complain that her character was set up with misdirection if she didn't turn evil - I personally would have been a bit disappointed because I thought the groundwork had been laid for her to turn evil.

It's like the Night King/Others etc - I now feel that all of the potential depth and grayness with their characterization was totally hollow misdirection and it pisses me off. If Dany ended good, I'd feel the same way.

Edited by ummester

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I'm so glad that someone else noticed that. The final season of Veep was surprisingly good and they wrapped things up so well. Character assassinations - 0. And it was a political satire that doesn't even need a good ending but the creators managed to do something amazing. Notice how it stuck to the usual awful politics the show highlights but also managed to give a silver lining to the whole thing? So neat. 

They honestly did it much better than I thought they would. I had low expectations going into the finale since I assumed it would be pretty much run of the mill generic happy ending. It was refreshing to see a somewhat emotional complex (or more complex than a lot of shows out there) finale.

Also, I am so happy they didn't betray Gary's character at the end. Gary was Gary all the way through, so good.

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12 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, that is exactly what I am predicting. And he may be more imaginative than me and he definately has more time to write and has put more time into ASoIaF then me - and. due to all of those things, he should have been able to pull it together by now.

But like I said, I hope I am wrong. I hope he can bring it together coz I would like to know how the Others and seasons and everything ticks in Westeros. I'd like to know how the Pact works and what the Last Hero did and what Varys saw in the flames (though I guess now it was just Drogons head and the word Dracarys)

What I'm saying is that there are 5,000 pages in the can already, and if you can't ID something Martin has already done wrong, maybe he's not going to do anything wrong in the 2 or 3K pages yet to go.

I don't put that much weight in predictions. It only took D&D one or two episodes on their own to make it clear the load was too heavy for them to bear. That wasn't a prediction.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

What I'm saying is that there are 5,000 pages in the can already, and if you can't ID something Martin has already done wrong, maybe he's not going to do anything wrong in the 2 or 3K pages yet to go.

5000 pages? WTF? That is 10 novels - possibly 5 GRRM novels :) If he has 5000 pages already done, why isn't it out?

Oh, wait a minute - you mean he has relaesed 5000 and has 2000 left so I should trust that

1) he will finish the last 2000 because he has aleady written 5000

2) they will all be high quality

Here is the problem - I didn't like the last book much at all - it kind of bored me. I didn't mind Feast but Dance was pretty crappy, I found. You know the part I remember most, now, years latter, Dany held a party and these slaves did a dance where the dudes threw some girls up in the air and landed them on their erections - I pissed myself laughing visualizing that.

The other problem is the rate of writing has decreased immensely over the years.

But like I said,I hope I am wrong.

Edited by ummester

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I loved the last book.

Obviously, it's an open question as to whether Martin will finish, and it's probably not smart to be too optimistic about it. I'm optimistic, though, that if he does finish, it will be good.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Jon ending up a king after proclaiming over and over than he doesn't want to be, (and also showing over and over that he's really inept at ruling in the first place.) would be sad for both the character and the people he rules.

Jon is really comparable to Robert B in this scenario: Good fighter who inspires loyalty and who's pretty beloved at first, but ultimately doesn't want to be king, is pretty inept at it, and never got to rule with the woman he loved. 
And how did that work out? Ironically it worked out pretty well compared to the rest of the monarch's we've had on this show, but not thanks to the man himself, (but because of the scheming small council) because he was a king who didn't care about anything other than drowning his sorrows in whores and alcohol. 

And yes, while bittersweet is subjective, it's also worth considering that Daenerys is probably the one character with the (by far) largest fan base. Alienating and assassinating her character for no good reason basically right before the credits roll automatically removes the prospects of a bittersweet ending, because you've just given a vast (the majority?) of the fandom a tragic ending.

Pretty inept at ruling(Yeah Dany is soooo good at it)? Regardless of how you feel about it, he's easily been portrayed as the best ruler for the common people, even above Sansa. She plays the game and he doesn't, but he would clearly be the best king.

 

Stop your whining, this is the ending GRRM gave them, however poorly executed. Daenerys goes mad. Some people live and will be happy. That's bittersweet unless Dany was the only person you cared about

Edited by Leonardo

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Just now, Leonardo said:

Pretty inept at ruling(Yeah Dany is soooo good at it)?

What does Jon's ineptitude as a ruler have to do with Daenerys? They're both pretty bad at ruling. 

Just now, Leonardo said:

Regardless of how you feel about it, he's easily been portrayed as the best ruler for the common people,

LOL. Has he now? People like him, but what choices has he, as a ruler, made that his subjects have approved of? Can you name five tings?

Just now, Leonardo said:

She plays the game and he doesn't, but he would clearly be the best king.

Because the show says right? Not because of anything he has actually done right?

Just now, Leonardo said:

Stop your whining

You got me, you blinded me with your well thought out, nuanced arguments.

Now piss off.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yeah that's a pretty good (and sad) analogy between what we got in LotR and what we're currently getting in GoT.

Daenerys could've easily gone the path of both Frodo and Thorin (i.e. turning evil for a very short time, before ultimately coming back to the light thanks to the actions of someone else. Thorin just like Daenerys sure showed hints of ruthlessness and paranoia), but neither Frodo nor Thorin turned into a psychopathic mass-murderer during their short time as evil.
 

Haha... I am only thinking Jamie's arc in that light: 

Galdaf (Jamie) goes to help the hobbits...

After a journey of 3 full movies, he goes: "Fuck this, I am going back to Saruman" :rofl::lmao::lmao:

Hobbits: :shocked:

Edited by Nightwish

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12 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

What does Jon's ineptitude as a ruler have to do with Daenerys? They're both pretty bad at ruling. 

LOL. Has he now? People like him, but what choices has he, as a ruler, made that his subjects have approved of? Can you name five tings?

Because the show says right? Not because of anything he has actually done right?

You got me, you blinded me with your well thought out, nuanced arguments.

Now piss off.

Yes, because the show says. There's only one thing Jon did that needs to be mentioned: he saved the North at cost to him self, time and again. He brought Daenerys North. That's all that needs saying.

 

It's a lot more to do with what the other characters that have brains still think of him. Sansa chooses him, twice. Varys thinks he would be better. Tyrion grudgingly admits it. Arya knows it, Sam thinks he would regardless of motivationa, and even Daenerys realizes he's more suited to ruling Westeros than she is. Hence part of why she burns the city down. 

 

The opinion of the characters speak a lot more in this truncated version of events than actions; he barely has had a chance to rule.

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1 minute ago, Leonardo said:

There's only one thing Jon did that needs to be mentioned: he saved the North at cost to him self, time and again. He brought Daenerys North. That's all that needs saying.

But in the Long Night they really didn't do much themselves. Dany and Jon that is. Even the armies didn't do much. Especially since in the end it was just a bunch of WW and others standing around waiting for the NK to kill Bran and Arya jumps outta nowhere to save the day. Jon and Dany didn't bring Arya north.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

You consider one of the heroes/protagonists of the story, killing the other hero/protagonist (who he also loves) because the other hero/protagonist for in-explanatory reasons got turned into a (the) villain with 3% left of the story a bittersweet ending?

I think most people would consider this tragic. It's like a really poorly done Shakespearean ending.

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring.
That's not bittersweet, that's tragic, for both Sam, Frodo, and for the invested reader. 

I see what you mean. The story and tone seem to be all over the place, so it's hard to tell what they're going for. I would consider it bittersweet for Jon to kill Dany in order to bring in an age of peace. Jon's storyline will probably end on a sad note,  but that's not necessarily representative of the overall story. We'll probably see most of the other characters get happy endings. 

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5 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

As for the ending as a whole, I too am firmly of the belief that we're past bittersweet at this point.
Unless there's some amazing final twist, then we're heading towards a full-blown nihilistic tragedy.

Ultimately this is fiction made for us, so how the audience reacts to the ending is way more important than how the faceless masses in Westeros reacts to the ending. We care about the characters in the story, not about the peasants having a happy ever after. 

Considering how Season 8 as gone out of it's way to make more or less all of the characters (including those who died last episode) either dislikable, totally void of character (including the personality that once made us care about them) or having their personality do a 180 so they become someone else entirely, it's hard for me to feel anything for these characters at this point:

- Jon? Mr Wood. Totally void of character and feelings. He has barely behaved like a human being this entire season. I re watched some of his scenes from the earlier seasons, and except for looking the same, it might has well been an entirely different character. I genuinely cared about Jon and his plights at one point. What happened?

- Sansa? Littlefinger 2.0 aka whiny bitchface. The last two seasons managed to make me go from pitying Sansa for everything she's been trough and ultimately want her a happy ending, to outright dislike her. I'm gonna be genuinely annoyed if she get's a happy ever after where she will just smirk and tell everyone "ToLD YoU sO". 

- Arya? It's a fine line between being a badass and being an ass, and Arya has been on the ass-side more than not lately. I don't mind her killing the NK that much (even if it takes away a huge part of Jon's story arc), but I do mind her having plot armor thicker than Balerions skull. Her character is also all over the place, she continuously switches between "family matters the most" to "I'm gonna kill people" in 5 minute-intervals. Make up your mind already! I felt nothing for her plights in KL last episode because I "knew" she would survive, and even if she hadn't, my reaction would've been a mere "...eh?".

- Bran? :| 

- Tyrion? Was my favorite character from S1-S5. Now you can throw him in the same "Not the same person as the one I once liked"-bin together with so many other characters. Seriously, when did Tyrion became a idiotic foolish pacifist and why? Once upon a time the prospect of him dying would've upset me. Now I couldn't care less. After Daenerys forced change in character, this guy is the second biggest reason we're heading towards a shit ending.

- Davos? I've always liked Davos. Now in S8 he's been nothing more than glorified extra that went from being Jon's right hand man (without a title) to serving soup to peasants. Seriously, has he said anything clever this whole season that ultimately lead to some sort of payoff? The writers clearly don't know what to do with him, and it shows. He should've died defending Winterfell.

- Jamie? Went from being one of my favorites for several seasons right back to being the guy I disliked in S1-S2 in less than one episode. His redemption-arc intrigued me, I rooted for him, he was interesting. Then when he died I felt absolutely nothing for the character. What was the moral of his story? "We are who we are and nothing can change that"? Talk about depressing...

- Varys? Also been a long standing favorite of mine, but in his last moments (last 2-3 seasons in general) he became a glorified extra. Ultimately he also died an idiot. Seriously, Varys was considered to be the Spider, one of the smartest men in Westeros and he... openly talks about betraying Daenerys and Jon being the rightful king while still being on her island, and tries to have Daenerys killed before the war against Cersei is even won? How did he expect Jon and the northerners to win without the Dothraki, Unsullied and Drogon? Tyrion and Varys clearly should've avoided each other because apparently they suffer intelligence-drain when they are alone with each other.

- Bronn? "Bronn finally snaps and is tired of empty promises from the Lannister-brothers, so he punches Tyrion in the face, threatens to kill them both, and then leaves, satisfied with ...another empty promise". Bronn is also one of those characters I enjoyed and who's death once would upset me. Now I no longer care. Fuck the guy. His arc should've ended with Lolys(?). 

- Sam? Never really cared much for him nor his relation with Gilly. He was annoying in the first seasons (I did pity him however) and then he became an exposition machine alongside Bran. Only Arya has thicker plot armor than him. I don't actively dislike the guy however, so I don't mind him surviving with Gilly - I just don't really care. 


- Sandor? One of the few characters on the show who died being true to his character from the earlier seasons. His death was ultimately pointless since the Mountain would've died anyway. I liked the character up to the point he died, but ultimately I felt more or less nothing. Throw him in the depressing "We are who we are and no agency can ever change that"-bin alongside Jamie and Daenerys. 

- Daenerys? Still one of the few character in the show I actually care about, but instead of feeling "Fuck yes Khaleesi!", I now mostly feel a sad, hollow, pitiful "Oh Daenerys...not like this". Character assassination 101, worse than Jamie. I'm not gonna go into much depth about how I consider her turn from "Good Mhysa" to "Evil Psychopath" to be laughably rushed, forced, contrived, and completely unjustified (foreshadowing is not character development) because I've written so much on that topic already. Needless to say, that having Daenerys purposefully killing thousands of innocents civilians and throwing her entire 7 season long Mhysa-arc in the flames is the biggest (and also the stupidest) gut punch this show has ever delivered. 


So yeah, ultimately I feel very little or nothing for more or less all of the "good" characters that remained in the show at the start of episode 5. They are more or less all so very far from the people they once where, and neither has changed for the better, so of course I care less, because I feel like I barely know these characters anymore, despite having spent 8 seasons with some of them.

I imagine it will be hard for me to get a satisfying ending when I no longer care about what's going on, because the immersion broke way before the credits will start to roll anyway.

Full-blown tragic, nihilistic ending without a satisfying payoff it is...

I completely agree! Excellent run down of how horribly D&D ruined each and every character in their incoherent mad dash to finish this series. 

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5 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

As for the ending as a whole, I too am firmly of the belief that we're past bittersweet at this point.
Unless there's some amazing final twist, then we're heading towards a full-blown nihilistic tragedy.

Ultimately this is fiction made for us, so how the audience reacts to the ending is way more important than how the faceless masses in Westeros reacts to the ending. We care about the characters in the story, not about the peasants having a happy ever after. 

Considering how Season 8 as gone out of it's way to make more or less all of the characters (including those who died last episode) either dislikable, totally void of character (including the personality that once made us care about them) or having their personality do a 180 so they become someone else entirely, it's hard for me to feel anything for these characters at this point:

- Jon? Mr Wood. Totally void of character and feelings. He has barely behaved like a human being this entire season. I re watched some of his scenes from the earlier seasons, and except for looking the same, it might has well been an entirely different character. I genuinely cared about Jon and his plights at one point. What happened?

- Sansa? Littlefinger 2.0 aka whiny bitchface. The last two seasons managed to make me go from pitying Sansa for everything she's been trough and ultimately want her a happy ending, to outright dislike her. I'm gonna be genuinely annoyed if she get's a happy ever after where she will just smirk and tell everyone "ToLD YoU sO". 

- Arya? It's a fine line between being a badass and being an ass, and Arya has been on the ass-side more than not lately. I don't mind her killing the NK that much (even if it takes away a huge part of Jon's story arc), but I do mind her having plot armor thicker than Balerions skull. Her character is also all over the place, she continuously switches between "family matters the most" to "I'm gonna kill people" in 5 minute-intervals. Make up your mind already! I felt nothing for her plights in KL last episode because I "knew" she would survive, and even if she hadn't, my reaction would've been a mere "...eh?".

- Bran? :| 

- Tyrion? Was my favorite character from S1-S5. Now you can throw him in the same "Not the same person as the one I once liked"-bin together with so many other characters. Seriously, when did Tyrion became a idiotic foolish pacifist and why? Once upon a time the prospect of him dying would've upset me. Now I couldn't care less. After Daenerys forced change in character, this guy is the second biggest reason we're heading towards a shit ending.

- Davos? I've always liked Davos. Now in S8 he's been nothing more than glorified extra that went from being Jon's right hand man (without a title) to serving soup to peasants. Seriously, has he said anything clever this whole season that ultimately lead to some sort of payoff? The writers clearly don't know what to do with him, and it shows. He should've died defending Winterfell.

- Jamie? Went from being one of my favorites for several seasons right back to being the guy I disliked in S1-S2 in less than one episode. His redemption-arc intrigued me, I rooted for him, he was interesting. Then when he died I felt absolutely nothing for the character. What was the moral of his story? "We are who we are and nothing can change that"? Talk about depressing...

- Varys? Also been a long standing favorite of mine, but in his last moments (last 2-3 seasons in general) he became a glorified extra. Ultimately he also died an idiot. Seriously, Varys was considered to be the Spider, one of the smartest men in Westeros and he... openly talks about betraying Daenerys and Jon being the rightful king while still being on her island, and tries to have Daenerys killed before the war against Cersei is even won? How did he expect Jon and the northerners to win without the Dothraki, Unsullied and Drogon? Tyrion and Varys clearly should've avoided each other because apparently they suffer intelligence-drain when they are alone with each other.

- Bronn? "Bronn finally snaps and is tired of empty promises from the Lannister-brothers, so he punches Tyrion in the face, threatens to kill them both, and then leaves, satisfied with ...another empty promise". Bronn is also one of those characters I enjoyed and who's death once would upset me. Now I no longer care. Fuck the guy. His arc should've ended with Lolys(?). 

- Sam? Never really cared much for him nor his relation with Gilly. He was annoying in the first seasons (I did pity him however) and then he became an exposition machine alongside Bran. Only Arya has thicker plot armor than him. I don't actively dislike the guy however, so I don't mind him surviving with Gilly - I just don't really care. 


- Sandor? One of the few characters on the show who died being true to his character from the earlier seasons. His death was ultimately pointless since the Mountain would've died anyway. I liked the character up to the point he died, but ultimately I felt more or less nothing. Throw him in the depressing "We are who we are and no agency can ever change that"-bin alongside Jamie and Daenerys. 

- Daenerys? Still one of the few character in the show I actually care about, but instead of feeling "Fuck yes Khaleesi!", I now mostly feel a sad, hollow, pitiful "Oh Daenerys...not like this". Character assassination 101, worse than Jamie. I'm not gonna go into much depth about how I consider her turn from "Good Mhysa" to "Evil Psychopath" to be laughably rushed, forced, contrived, and completely unjustified (foreshadowing is not character development) because I've written so much on that topic already. Needless to say, that having Daenerys purposefully killing thousands of innocents civilians and throwing her entire 7 season long Mhysa-arc in the flames is the biggest (and also the stupidest) gut punch this show has ever delivered. 


So yeah, ultimately I feel very little or nothing for more or less all of the "good" characters that remained in the show at the start of episode 5. They are more or less all so very far from the people they once where, and neither has changed for the better, so of course I care less, because I feel like I barely know these characters anymore, despite having spent 8 seasons with some of them.

I imagine it will be hard for me to get a satisfying ending when I no longer care about what's going on, because the immersion broke way before the credits will start to roll anyway.

Full-blown tragic, nihilistic ending without a satisfying payoff it is...

This is such a perfect summary of each character. I feel the same way! 

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Jon ending up a king after proclaiming over and over than he doesn't want to be, (and also showing over and over that he's really inept at ruling in the first place.) would be sad for both the character and the people he rules.

Jon is really comparable to Robert B in this scenario: Good fighter who inspires loyalty and who's pretty beloved at first, but ultimately doesn't want to be king, is pretty inept at it, and never got to rule with the woman he loved. 
And how did that work out? Ironically it worked out pretty well compared to the rest of the monarch's we've had on this show, but not thanks to the man himself, (but because of the scheming small council) because he was a king who didn't care about anything other than drowning his sorrows in whores and alcohol. 

And yes, while bittersweet is subjective, it's also worth considering that Daenerys is probably the one character with the (by far) largest fan base. Alienating and assassinating her character for no good reason basically right before the credits roll automatically removes the prospects of a bittersweet ending, because you've just given a vast (the majority?) of the fandom a tragic ending.

I keep hearing this but I don't see how Robert was a bad king when;

  • Aerys
  • Joffrey
  • Cersei
  • And now mad Daenerys (who burned the children at the KL alive,)

Robert had one rebellion in 20 years and they smashed the Greyjoys like an insect after Robert inspiring thousands to his cause.

Varys chose Jon as a better ruler over Daenerys and he lost his life for it, and this was before Daenerys burning the KL, Sansa also said Jon is good at ruling, and I doubt she was lying to Jon for some reason,

 

Yes, Jon isn't a politician, and Robert wasn't a politician too, but they are far better than the tyrants and the mad people who come before them.

Who would be a better ruler? Renly? The guy that usurps his own brother's right for the throne, and goes into rebellion just because he can or sleeps with other men despite his own religion forbids it? Stannis who burns people, uses blood magic and even burns his own children for the throne? Littlefinger? I don't even want to think about it.

I would say Robert is better than all of these, as well as Jon would be too.

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