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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

The Harpies killing innocents in the streets is a morally good action?

 Ned beheading a kid for running out from the NW is a morally good action?

Arya making  the Freys a pie is a morally good action?

Sansa blaming the one who has come to her aid and plotting against her is a good action?

Varys going to Lady Olenna and promising Blood and Fire is a morally good action?

The Tarlys betraying Olenna and rooting for Cersei, after blowing up the Sept, is a morally good action? 

oh there are excuses for every death done by the Starks.
but the people Dany killed that were just terrible, betrayed her or fought against her, means that she's always been insane.

Edited by Nami

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I think this is right. It's up to them to convince their audience. It’s like a teacher who fails every student in the class for failing to learn, unable to see that the fault lies with the teaching not with the students.

So when D&D start their next show on the idea the American South won the civil war, no one in the audience is going to be conflicted that their “heroes” presumably support Slavery?  We’re going to need them to tell us Slavery is wrong?

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She's not responsible for what her ancestors did 400 years ago, and even in medieval societies, there were opponents of slavery ( the Normans ended it in England).

The normans also ruined the existing class system and made it much more rigid, introduced forest law and barbarous punishments for breaking it, and murdered thousands of innocent northerners when a few nobles decided to change their minds about supporting William the Conqueror. 

Like dany and others, very gray. 

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1 minute ago, WalkinDude said:

So when D&D start their next show on the idea the American South won the civil war, no one in the audience is going to be conflicted that their “heroes” presumably support Slavery?  We’re going to need them to tell us Slavery is wrong?

That isn't what I meant. I meant that they've done things that many in their audience simply do not see or understand or buy into it, even after the fact. 

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8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

The Harpies killing innocents in the streets is a morally good action?

 Ned beheading a kid for running out from the NW is a morally good action?

Arya making  the Freys a pie is a morally good action?

Sansa blaming the one who has come to her aid and plotting against her is a good action?

Varys going to Lady Olenna and promising Blood and Fire is a morally good action?

The Tarlys betraying Olenna and rooting for Cersei, after blowing up the Sept, is a morally good action? 

Decide if this world is white and black or just grey as you say, because you are confused.  

Plus I am not the director here presenting immoral acts as glorious ones. This is not about Dany's character. It's about how it is presented by the creators. The cinematography. The atmosphere. I don't understand why you excuse their argument: they showed Dany's story as they showed Arya's story and even Jon's story. With sacrifices, killings and battles for the return home. But she was on that side. The Good Side. 

And of course that's where they invested to create surprise. They didn't invest on character development other than breaking her down on season 8. 

So tossing back the ball to the audience: "you failed to see it" is a void argument. No dear, you are the directors and you are the script writers, and if you had wanted a Mad Queen you failed to create her. 

No, I’m clearly saying some of their actions were wrong. It’s up to us to decide and evaluate one act relative to all actions taken. 

 

I dont think Arya is a good guy. I do think Jon is a good person. Sansa and Tyrion are in the middle. I clearly think Dany went mad with power. 

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

The normans also ruined the existing class system and made it much more rigid, introduced forest law and barbarous punishments for breaking it, and murdered thousands of innocent northerners when a few nobles decided to change their minds about supporting William the Conqueror. 

Like dany and others, very gray. 

Dany is a grey character who is suddenly transformed into a monster in order to justify killing her.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Dany is a grey character who is suddenly transformed into a monster in order to justify killing her.

Totally, it was rushed in the show. But the idea it came out of nowhere and her previous actions didn’t set the stage for her burning KL is bunk in my opinion. 

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany is a grey character who is suddenly transformed into a monster in order to justify killing her.

Totally agreed. I’ve always thought that Jon and Dany are meant to be foils of each other. Jon raised as nothing but within a (relatively) loving and stable family, taught that honor is the most important aspect of his life.  He spends most of his time surrounded by people who cultivate their own kinds of honor, however inconsequential for the story  

Dany, abused her whole life and taught that she’s part of a line of superheroes meant to rule by divine right and completely secure in her right to reign. Surrounded by people who worship and idolize her and praise her every move, for literally years. 

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16 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Totally, it was rushed in the show. But the idea it came out of nowhere and her previous actions didn’t set the stage for her burning KL is bunk in my opinion. 

It's been confirmed that Dany will burn Kings Landing in the books.  We don't know what her reasons will be - but I expect it will be for some more substantial reason than for the evulzs (and book Tyrion will be egging her on, as opposed to St. Tyrion of the Show).

I've no objection to seeing Dany die a heroine or a monster, so long as it is earned.  This was not.

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Yet another intelligence-insulting Ding-Dong retcon.

Even if they intended for Dany to become evil all along (and I seriously doubt they were thinking that far ahead), they never developed it. Instead, being the prideful p****s that they are, they try to rewrite history to rationalize their latest contrivance. How many times have we been through this with them? Thank the gods it’s the last time...for now.

Are we supposed to pretend that Dany’s conquests of Astapor and Meereen were preludes to wanton mass-murder in King’s Landing? That’s absurd, and not just because they portrayed those actions as unambiguously heroic. And Tyrion’s paraphrasing of Niemoller’s poem is just offensive. They contrived for Dany to become evil in the penultimate episode so that she had to be killed in the finale. Once you see how poorly planned their writing is you can’t unsee it.

I’ve never even been a big Dany fan. I’ve always criticized her absolutist style of rule. But they murdered her character in more ways than one.

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Yeah they rushed it all. It could have been done a thousand times better,

Still, I suggest rewatching Season 7. Dany starts to go mad as soon as she reaches Westeros. She's completely irrational about Jon Snow having to bend the knee, the way she burns the Tarlys alive, etc.

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7 hours ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

In the show for several years I was a Dany supporter. I guess most of my posts are in the books section, but they are there.

I don't feel guilty at all. 

Me neither. It is why I was so outraged. This is directky from Ki Harringtom mouth:  

 

“But if you track her story all the way back, she does some terrible things. She crucifies people. She burns people alive. This has been building. So, we have to say to the audience: ‘You’re in denial about this woman as well. You knew something was wrong. You’re culpable, you cheered her on.’”

JFC, she was a good person who lost her way. I always loved her and will remember her fondly for the person she set out to be. Daenerys Stormborn and not a mad queen will live in my memories of this series.

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It's telling that even the actress was surprised at the ending for Dany. In every other production, the actors are told how their characters' arcs will go, so that they can add nuance to their performances. Like Renee from the Americans - the actress supposedly left clues in certain scenes to help viewers work out if she was a spy or not. Emilia Clarke was left entirely in the dark, so she played Dany straight, as hero, because that was how the character was portrayed up until this season.

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7 hours ago, Nightwish said:

When others didn't work, he put the family argument upfront (and that made the job).

This was an echo to season 1. Jon make the same choice as Ned, he lets go of his honor for the good of his sisters. Sansa gets to be queen, what she always wanted. And in the end didnt deserve it. She broke her father and Jons thrust , and terrible things happened because of it. I like Sansa in the books but if she is going to repeat this story, thats a hard no for me.

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Dany was no Mad Queen. Sure she went a bit extreme there at King's Landing, but overall she always did more good than bad. She lost a dragon saving Jon and company beyond the wall. She lost most of her army defending Winterfell. Without her everyone from Winterfell to Dorne would've died at the hands of the Night  King. 

What if Tryion had been given a dragon after his trial for the murder of Joffrey? Would he of burned KL to the ground? What about Sansa or Arya, in their weakest moments if they were given a Dragon, what would they have done? She had lost Jorah, Viserion, Rhaegal, and Missandei. Lost so many others in Essos. Constantly betrayed by her advisors. Rejected by her lover. Despised by most of the Northerners she saved. All she had left to her was Drogon and Greyworm, a couple of killing machines. 

She was driven to her actions by her Westerosi "friends" Jon, Bran, Sansa, Varys, and more than anyone Tyrion. He gave her bad advice after bad advice. Betrayed her multiple times, and then convinced Jon into taking her out. For all that he was of course rewarded with yet another hand position. 

And how about Bran? The real Mad King. Knows everything but tells everyone nothing... except of course who Jon is so he can help get Dany riled up. Never warns anyone Dany is gonna burn KL down. Doesn't try to warg into Drogon to stop her from doing it. Nope nothing. But this is who should be King?

The last episode made me hate almost everyone. Sansa a power hungry bit**... Bran the evil manipulator... Tryion the sabotage master... I realized Arya's character becomes entirely pointless when she runs out of people to kill... Greyworm fails to execute either of the two men responsible for the death of his Queen. Drogon, Ghost, and maybe Pod... that's all who was left as a likable character after that finale. 

And what about Aegon the Conquerer? How is what Dany was doing any different than what he and his sisters did 300 years ago? They came to Westeros unprovoked and conquered it simply because they could. How many innocents did they kill in doing so? Last time I checked everyone sings the praises of him and his sisters, but Dany's a monster... yea ok. 

What was even the point of keeping a King after Dany died? Might as well let all seven kingdoms return to being independent kingdoms like the North did. The throne was melted, KL destroyed... did they learn nothing from Robert's Rebellion all the way up to Dany's death? What good comes from having a King?

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7 hours ago, Nami said:

She should have never went to the North to deal with those snakes who would use her to save their asses and then ultimately plot against her leading to her demise.

I never wouldve imagined that I would end up hating the Starks. Never. Im glad Jon left them all behind, they all pushed him in the direction of how badly things turn out. 

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12 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recent EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

This is perfect. 

 

As much as I love these books, the one thing that I find annoying is this whole "mad targ" gun. So god flips a coin, but it doesn't pan out until...whenever? Then what is the use of Viserys who is so obviously supposed to be a crazy targ? Why are there no crazy Lannisters? Cersei is crazy, Tywin is the one who taught her, Jamie pushed a child out a window, Tyrion strangled his prostitute, but noooooo it's the targs that are crazy. 

 

GRRM put the mad queen plot device in there to choose if he wanted to shoot the gun later. He's stated he's a gardener who lets his characters grow, but he always had Dany's end in mind. If this is how she ends in the books then GRRM is purposefully misdirecting the audience just so he can shoot the gun and call it clever. 

 

I rooted for Dany, I still stand by her. That last 8.5 - 8.6 was NOT Daenerys Targaryen. That was the original destination GRRM had in mind. Two very different things. The creators of How I Met Your Mother learned this hard lesson as well, as their once-great ongoing series ended in disappointment (so much that no one mentions it when talking about LOST and Dexter) and everyone forgot about it. 

 

I'm not looking forward to the books if this is how it plays out. I will forget this, but I will always remember Daenerys Targaryen as how she is, not what she originally was meant to be. 

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12 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recent EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd put it a different way. Actually, I think trying to make us feel complicit in Dany's long descent into darkness is the most ambitious, most unforgettable thing the show has ever tried to pull off, surpassing even the Red Wedding.

The problem is that the show failed.

We should've been with Dany every step of the way along this path--starting with, yes, watching her brother die, followed by giving Mirri Maz Duur to the flames, unleashing dragonfire on the Astapor slavers, crucifying the Meereen masters, hating herself for making peace with the Sons of the Harpy, cheering when Drogon arrives roaring in Daznak's Pit, taking Vaes Dothrak with fire and blood, all of it, up to and including the Burning of King's Landing. There is no disconnect between her story in Essos and her one in Westeros--or, at least, there shouldn't be. One follows from the other, every decision that Dany makes is part of a long, unbroken chain of choice and consequence that leads inevitably to a ultimate turning point. Just like Tyrion strangling Shae to death, or Theon killing the miller's boys, or Arya stabbing the Tickler, or Jon Snow abandoning the Night's Watch to march on Winterfell, and all the other moments in this story that are horrifying and insane regarded at a distance but, somehow, in the moment, in the minds and hearts of the characters who live them, feel right and justified and irrevocable. Moments of change, of revelation and tragedy.

There's no doubt Daenerys is the final villain of A Song of Ice and Fire. But it shouldn't feel that way, when we're in her head. At the very least, when she burns King's Landing, we should understand why she did it. We should experience that along it with her.

That's what the show didn't do--bringing the viewer along for the final turn. Suddenly, it shifted perspective away from Dany, distanced the camera away from her. And so, as viewers, we were not complicit, because we were not cheering Dany as she took the torch to the city. We saw the sack of King's Landing through Tyrion's eyes, Jon's, Arya's--but not Dany's. 

GRRM will do a better job if and when he ever gets to that point.

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