sologdin Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 another potential example is my job, which is more or less russell & tate--it serves a purpose but that purpose should not exist in a rational world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 If we have bullshit jobs does it then follow that we have bullshit employers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 12 hours ago, DanteGabriel said: I'm a project manager (though that job has been different at all the companies I've known) and I'm pretty sure I could be replaced by a reasonably clever piece of software. Though you might need project managers to get the software built... Quote By July 2001, BackRub had been renamed Google and was doing really well. It had millions of users, an impressive list of investors, and 400 employees, including about a half-dozen project managers. As at most startups, in Google's first year there were no management layers between the CEO, Page, and the engineers. But as the company grew, it added a layer of managers, people who could meet with Page and the rest of Google's senior executives and give the engineers prioritized orders and deadlines. Page, now 28, hated it. Since Google hired only the most talented engineers, he thought that extra layer of supervision was not just unnecessary but also an impediment. He also suspected that Google's project managers were steering engineers away from working on projects that were personally important to him. For example, Page had outlined a plan to scan all the world's books and make them searchable online, but somehow no one was working on it. Page blamed the project managers. Some dramatic streamlining was called for, he resolved. Instead of the project managers, all of Google's engineers would report to one person, a newly hired VP of engineering named Wayne Rosing, and Rosing would report directly to him. Quote Google's human resources boss, a serious woman with bangs named Stacey Sullivan, thought Page's plan was nuts, according to " I'm Feeling Lucky," Douglas Edwards' inside view of Google's early years. Sullivan told Page so. "You can't just self-organize!" she said. "People need someone to go to when they have problems!" Page ignored her. The Untold Story Of Larry Page's Incredible Comeback https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-the-untold-story-2014-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Google used to be called BackRub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said: Google used to be called BackRub? Yeah, it was like the Backpage of its day. So, what if a stock broker likes his/her job and does not think it is a bullshit job? Yeah sure people are self-reporting. Perhaps though the people reporting the job as bullshit are moving on to new endeavors. It would seem that a lot of people doing bullshit jobs have a vested interest in not having their jobs exposed as being bullshit. Also, I'm having some difficulty finding empathy for people alienated or upset at being in high-paying bullshit jobs. I have some experience with how devastating poverty is to individuals and families. And we are in the U.S. in a period of historic inequality. Maybe I'm not stretching my empathy enough, but I know large families that may not be able to house all their family members in coming months. I would guess some of these folk would be happy to be in a bullshit job if it kept them off the streets. Is CEO a bullshit job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 On 9/4/2019 at 11:01 PM, polishgenius said: The time I spent a few years back working as a cleaner in T-Mobile's UK office convinced me of that. Obviously I didn't know exactly what everyone was doing but it seemed fairly obvious that at least 80% of jobs there were entirely and only about interacting with people from other offices who were there only and entirely to interact with them. I honestly thought and still do that I preferred my shitty cleaning role to that. FOr a minute reading this I thought you were gonna say your cleaning job was a bullshit job and I was about to argue it’s likely one of the least bullshit jobs ever! This summer I’ve been a cleaner/Conservation Assistant in a historic property and 1) am strangely loving it and 2) my god if that place was left for even two WEEKS with no cleaning it wouldn’t be fit for the public to view. So def important. And not something I can imagine automatons doing anytime soon. Unless they want to break that lovely 500 year old fragile chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Surely the whole film Office Space is about this phenomenon. Maybe someone has mentioned that, sorry I’m still waking up. I definitely work a SHIT job as a sales assistant/shop attendant/cashier/shelf mover whatever the hell you wanna call it. And I absolutely hate it so much. But I guess in this sense it isn’t a bullshit job because I’m, in some small way, part of the community here. However, it doesn’t make this job any better to know that. I can’t even explain why I hate it so much anymore - I actively feel depressed when I set foot in the store. Whereas my second (or third???) job is visitor facing as well, collecting tickets, selling tickets, tour guiding at a heritage site and I kind of LOVE that. I don’t know why the jump in my mood is SO different between two jobs which really aren’t all that hugely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 I think with my shop job that overall it isn’t bullshit but almost all of the tasks we have to completely every shift ARE bullshit and dictated by a head office who have NO ducking clue (actually those head office jobs are more than certainly bullshit jobs). Maybe that bullshit is rubbing off on the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Any marketing job is bullshit. 90% of financial jobs are bullshit. Real estate agent is a bullshit job. 90% of management jobs are bullshit. Police officer jobs are bullshit. I'm sure there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 On 9/6/2019 at 12:00 PM, maarsen said: A good example of a bullshit job is the Royal family. All of them. I agree with the bullshit part, but I am not sure I would count what they do as jobs, except for the the Queen maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jo498 said: I agree with the bullshit part, but I am not sure I would count what they do as jobs, except for the the Queen maybe. They are getting paid. As the UK does not have a universal basic income, I assume they are getting paid to smile and wave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 they are servants of the secret fire, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 O.k., I have to confess my ignorance, I was not aware that the British Royals are actually getting paid. Since when is this the case? I could (barely) understand it for the Queen as head of state, but say Prince Harry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 7 hours ago, larrytheimp said: Any marketing job is bullshit. 90% of financial jobs are bullshit. Real estate agent is a bullshit job. 90% of management jobs are bullshit. Police officer jobs are bullshit. I'm sure there are others. Police officers? Nah. Even in an ideal society you'd still need policemen. 5 minutes ago, Jo498 said: O.k., I have to confess my ignorance, I was not aware that the British Royals are actually getting paid. Since when is this the case? I could (barely) understand it for the Queen as head of state, but say Prince Harry? IIRC only the Queen and her husband are paid a salary. Other royals earn money through their estates and assets (which they inherited, but still). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 On 9/6/2019 at 10:24 AM, sologdin said: the philistine notion that it's "beauracracy [sic] that's more guaranteed to be unjustifiable once you zoom in on a department to see what they're contributing" Yep, this tired canard should have died with Balzac. The bureaucracy, and specifically careerist civil servants, encounters far more scrutiny and justification of their jobs' usefulness than almost any private sector position through the arduous budget process - having to annually report their use to two institutions as principals that have competing (and often diametrically opposed) agendas. If there're examples of "bullshit" jobs in agencies, start with political appointees. Let's just take the State Department, which has six Under Secretaries (along with two Deputy Secretaries above them): Political Affairs; Management; Economic Growth, Energy, and the Environment; Arms Control and International Security Affairs; Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs; and Civilian Security, Democracy, and Human Rights. All six have their own personal staffs. Now couldn't the Under Secretary of Political Affairs also cover the duties of the Under Secretary of Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs? Or Arms Control and International Security cover Civilian Security, etc? Now, it's true that politicization can aid in presidents' employment of agencies to help enact and implement their policy agenda, but if you wanna look for bullshit jobs in government agencies, start at the top - not with the civil servants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 55 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Police officers? Nah. Even in an ideal society you'd still need policemen. I could disappear and all that would happen is my staff would make their own decisions, I'm basically a comfort blanket for people who lack confidence. Most of the time they knew the correct answer and I just confirm it. The actual police who arrive when you have a problem are necessary. A lot of the test of us are just there to pass decision making responsibility up the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 27 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: I could disappear and all that would happen is my staff would make their own decisions, I'm basically a comfort blanket for people who lack confidence. Most of the time they knew the correct answer and I just confirm it. The actual police who arrive when you have a problem are necessary. A lot of the test of us are just there to pass decision making responsibility up the chain. I nearly tagged you to have your two cents. What you're saying is that management (even in the police) isn't very useful. But there's no rule saying yours must be an office job, right? Conceivably you could (or can?) spend a lot of time on the ground with your men. It may be possible to do without management but hierarchy is still necessary isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Rippounet said: Police officers? Nah. Even in an ideal society you'd still need policemen. IIRC only the Queen and her husband are paid a salary. Other royals earn money through their estates and assets (which they inherited, but still). I thought Charles did as well, but I looked it up and you’re right - him and his sons get their income from the Duchy of Cornwall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Rippounet said: I nearly tagged you to have your two cents. What you're saying is that management (even in the police) isn't very useful. But there's no rule saying yours must be an office job, right? Conceivably you could (or can?) spend a lot of time on the ground with your men. It may be possible to do without management but hierarchy is still necessary isn't it? It would be great to get out and do real police work. Nobody joins up to answer emails and sit in meetings. The police would be no worse off if I didn't answer all my emails and attend all the meetings, but then how do I justify getting paid more? If I could make the same salary for getting out in the car and putting the lights and sirens on and helping people that's what i would be doing. I loved being a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Jo498 said: O.k., I have to confess my ignorance, I was not aware that the British Royals are actually getting paid. Since when is this the case? I could (barely) understand it for the Queen as head of state, but say Prince Harry? They get millions in "allowances". The royals got money like the Pope. https://opentabernacle.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/popes-personal-income-200-million-annually/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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