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What shouldn't be done...about climate change

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6 minutes ago, Wolfgang I said:

Disrupting the tube? Wtf. Around here they prefer disrupting non-puplic  transport. 

The Fridays for Future ppl around here  avoid disrupting puplic transport, as much as possible for a protest, too from my experince. 

Its a huge misreading of their audience and a very good way to turn people against you. 

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It's a ridiculously bad PR strategy.

But then, the actual problem is that we're still at the stage where we have to think in terms of PR.

It it were me I would consider hitting the current system where it really hurts, but that would quickly be labeled terrorism...

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3 hours ago, Wolfgang I said:

Disrupting the tube? Wtf. Around here they prefer disrupting non-puplic  transport. 

The Fridays for Future ppl around here  avoid disrupting puplic transport, as much as possible for a protest, too from my experince. 


I doubt it was any kind of plan by whatever organisation Extinction Rebellion has so much as two idiots taking it upon themselves and associating themselves with the name, but yeah, it's an absolute boneheaded stupid move both in terms of message and in keeping the public onside.

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If human population levels are the problem, then surely climate change is a solution? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Our planet knows how to sustain itself, it's very arrogant of us, a pathetically modern species, to assume we have any bearing on the outcome.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Just because we have a right to be here, does not mean the universe will unfold in favor of our existence. To assume otherwise seems kind of religious and somewhat fundamentalist to me.

Edited by ummester

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

If human population levels are the problem, then surely climate change is a solution? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Our planet knows how to sustain itself, it's very arrogant of us, a pathetically modern species, to assume we have any bearing on the outcome.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Just because we have a right to be here, does not mean the universe will unfold in favor of our existence. To assume otherwise seems kind of religious and somewhat fundamentalist to me.

You dont see what all the fuss is about?. 

Maybe you have a severe lack of empathy, and understanding of the what are the problems we face and what are the possible solutions.

We have bearing in the outcome, cuz we are the cause, and we have the means to be the solution. 

Are you american, or european by any chance. 

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47 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

You dont see what all the fuss is about?. 

Maybe you have a severe lack of empathy, and understanding of the what are the problems we face and what are the possible solutions.

We have bearing in the outcome, cuz we are the cause, and we have the means to be the solution. 

Are you american, or european by any chance. 

Don't waste your time, it's not worth it. 

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7 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

You dont see what all the fuss is about?. 

Maybe you have a severe lack of empathy, and understanding of the what are the problems we face and what are the possible solutions.

We have bearing in the outcome, cuz we are the cause, and we have the means to be the solution. 

Are you american, or european by any chance. 

I have heaps of empathy and understanding of the situation - just a total lack of sympathy for my own species as a whole, which has began to devolve rapidly in the last 20 years. - NB this does not mean I can't like and form bonds with individual humans that effect me in the real world.

I am neither American or European.

If our existence is the cause, then surely our depopulation will add to the solution? It's not hard to work out, humans have always been opposed to the natural environment. They are the one animal, among all others on this planet, that shapes its environment rather than exists in it. A greater number of humans is worse for the Earth, whilst a lesser number of humans is better for it. The equation is unbelievably simple. Humanism and environmentalism are not compatible.

I just have faith that the worst we can do is bring about our own extinction - our planet and life on it will always survive us.

 

BTW, if you are a young person that thinks climate change is destroying your future, there a lot of other things on the closer horizon to panic over. The global economy is on borrowed time. War between the US and China seems to be becoming inevitable. The Earth itself may be coming to a stage of dangerous axial tilt. Then we have increasing solar activity, an unstable Middle East and automation taking away all of your employment prospects. There is heaps to worry about and protest about, if you feel the need, no need to be a climate fundamentalist.

Edited by ummester
Thought of something else

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59 minutes ago, ummester said:

BTW, if you are a young person that thinks climate change is destroying your future, there a lot of other things on the closer horizon to panic over.

It would be nice if that were still true. 

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10 hours ago, ummester said:

If human population levels are the problem, then surely climate change is a solution? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Our planet knows how to sustain itself, it's very arrogant of us, a pathetically modern species, to assume we have any bearing on the outcome.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Just because we have a right to be here, does not mean the universe will unfold in favor of our existence. To assume otherwise seems kind of religious and somewhat fundamentalist to me.

I do agree that human population levels are sort of the elephant in the room. You can't expect to have a population of 10+ billion that consume at the level of Americans, Canadians, Western Europeans, etc., and also expect to have a livable planet. We can talk about clean energy and sustainability all we want, but I'm skeptical that anything we can do (green new deal or whatever) will make any real difference in what will happen in the next 50-100 years. If humans do somehow muddle through the next few centuries, I suspect we'll come out the other end with a much smaller population.

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8 hours ago, ummester said:

It's not hard to work out, humans have always been opposed to the natural environment. They are the one animal, among all others on this planet, that shapes its environment rather than exists in it.

This is not even remotely true.

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7 hours ago, Pecan said:

I do agree that human population levels are sort of the elephant in the room. You can't expect to have a population of 10+ billion that consume at the level of Americans, Canadians, Western Europeans, etc., and also expect to have a livable planet. We can talk about clean energy and sustainability all we want, but I'm skeptical that anything we can do (green new deal or whatever) will make any real difference in what will happen in the next 50-100 years. If humans do somehow muddle through the next few centuries, I suspect we'll come out the other end with a much smaller population.

That is the best case scenario I fear. 

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16 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Maybe the time for protesting without bothering anyone has come to an end. 

Maybe they see that nobody is taking this seriously enough. And protesting on fridays just doesnt cut it. 

Some of us are fucking desperate



If you're referring to the protesters yesterday, yeah, sure, but you have to bother the right people. You can't just piss everyone off coz then they won't support you, no matter how much they should.


 

9 hours ago, ummester said:

 

BTW, if you are a young person that thinks climate change is destroying your future, there a lot of other things on the closer horizon to panic over. The global economy is on borrowed time. War between the US and China seems to be becoming inevitable. The Earth itself may be coming to a stage of dangerous axial tilt. Then we have increasing solar activity, an unstable Middle East and automation taking away all of your employment prospects. There is heaps to worry about and protest about, if you feel the need, no need to be a climate fundamentalist. 

 

 

Are you doing a bit? Most of those things you listed are either not as dangerous as climate change, or just complete bullshit (there's a long way to go before war between the US and China is inevitable. And what the fuck is dangerous axial tilt?). But even if every single one of them was a clear and present danger that still wouldn't mean we should be blase about billions of people dying. 

 

1 hour ago, Liffguard said:

This is not even remotely true.

Guess this fella's never seen an anthill.

 

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8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Are you doing a bit? Most of those things you listed are either not as dangerous as climate change, or just complete bullshit (there's a long way to go before war between the US and China is inevitable. And what the fuck is dangerous axial tilt?). But even if every single one of them was a clear and present danger that still wouldn't mean we should be blase about billions of people dying. 

 

Guess this fella's never seen an anthill.

 

While we're at it, there's no increase in solar activity either. Recent decades have actually seen rather low activity levels.

https://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/images/bfly.gif

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7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

If you're referring to the protesters yesterday, yeah, sure, but you have to bother the right people. You can't just piss everyone off coz then they won't support you, no matter how much they should.


And how do your avarage person could bother the right people, when "the people" are corporations?.  And if you bother them to much you risk your life (that is true of some goverments to). 

So your avarage people doesnt have to many choices.  Civil desobidience being one of them. 

and you know, this is life or death to many of us, climate activist are being murdered and we dont see things changing but getting worse. So youll have to forgive me for doing everything i can think of, to make "them" do something.  Even if that is just disrupting every day life. 

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1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

And how do your avarage person could bother the right people, when "the people" are corporations?.  And if you bother them to much you risk your life (that is true of some goverments to).

Well that’s it isn’t it. Ultimately the only real way to get corporations to change is to make it in their interest to and for that you need mass public support for your position. Which is why you need to balance the public disruption. Which is why blocking the tube was utter idiocy even if you set aside the dangers of blocking without warning a rush hour tube train in London with the kind of incoming crowd that brings.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Well that’s it isn’t it. Ultimately the only real way to get corporations to change is to make it in their interest to and for that you need mass public support for your position. Which is why you need to balance the public disruption. Which is why blocking the tube was utter idiocy even if you set aside the dangers of blocking without warning a rush hour tube train in London with the kind of incoming crowd that brings.

I dont se how playing in to the interest of corporations is ever going to do anything meaningfull to change tehy way in wich they operate. No. We have to pressure the state to control or outright ban corporations that are not doing what we need them to do. 

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14 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

I dont se how playing in to the interest of corporations is ever going to do anything meaningfull to change tehy way in wich they operate. No. We have to pressure the state to control or outright ban corporations that are not doing what we need them to do. 

Also a valid view but for that you still need majority public support, to threaten via vote. So a protest which pisses the public off is still a terrible idea.

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On 10/17/2019 at 4:08 PM, ummester said:

f our existence is the cause, then surely our depopulation will add to the solution? It's not hard to work out, humans have always been opposed to the natural environment. They are the one animal, among all others on this planet, that shapes its environment rather than exists in it. A greater number of humans is worse for the Earth, whilst a lesser number of humans is better for it. The equation is unbelievably simple. Humanism and environmentalism are not compatible.

Everything you’ve just said is wrong. And rather than dispute the idea of you suffering a lack of sympathy, and empathy for your fellow man it simply gives credence to the idea. Population by itself is not the main driving force for climate-change. Africa’s entire populations alone trump the US and Europe’s. It’s the latter two who plays a much bigger role in terms of climate change. 

Literally everyone in Africa could drop dead right now and it’d not make significant dent to in addressing the problem at all. 

The solution is for the biggest contributors to climate needing to significant changes to be done to the systems that govern their people’s everyday lives.

And, please, don’t try to sanitize the potential deaths and suffering of of tens of millions, Hell perhaps billions with the quaint term of it being depopulation. 

I’m sure the masses of people who flee from their homes because of climate-change would dread the type of “sympathy” or empathy you’re displaying being the attitude adopted by the people they’d be begging sanctuary from. Telling them that their deaths are good for the world won’t be seen as sympathetic.

And, the earth will be here regardless of if the human species lives or not. It has been here billions of years before us likely it’ll be here long after we’re dead. Hell life would likely still be here. Hell perhaps even intelligence may rise and that species would not see the end of humanity as ruining the earth. Humanity is not ruining the earth with climate-change. It’s merely fucking over its’ own prospects. 

17 hours ago, Liffguard said:

This is not even remotely true.

It really isn’t. But human beings must themselves as totally unique in all aspects. Only we could effect the environment-ignoring all the species that actively try to make the area they find themselves in suitable to their needs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species

Beavers chop down trees to make dams to use as shelter for instance.

Animals besides humans effect effect their natural environment. Saying otherwise simply displays, ignorance, hubris, or most likely both.

16 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Are you doing a bit? Most of those things you listed are either not as dangerous as climate change, or just complete bullshit (there's a long way to go before war between the US and China is inevitable. And what the fuck is dangerous axial tilt?). But even if every single one of them was a clear and present danger that still wouldn't mean we should be blase about billions of people dying. 

No, I’m sure he’s totally genuine in his views.

That we should do nothing or simply not worry about the effects of man-made climate change because other problems exist in the world, and too big a problem for us to grapple with.

It’s a fairly apathetic approach to the problem that imo is worse than full blown denial of it. 

And I’m assuming he’s talking about this: https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/earths-orbit-cannot-explain-modern-climate-change/

On 10/17/2019 at 5:44 AM, Heartofice said:

They should have stuck to the impromptu Yoga sessions and interpretive dance. That was winning hearts and minds.

So being Violent, disruptive, loud, civil, or polite, doesn’t seem ever acceptable when trying to bring awareness or actions regarding climate-change. Like the things you’ve mentioned are literally the most inoffensive, least disruptive things, one could do in relation to this problem and it is still derives mockery and disdain from you.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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