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Mario Seddy

What if viserys and daenerys were captured after the death of William Darry and brought to Westeros ?

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What if viserys and daenerys were captured after the death of William Darry and brought to Westeros ? Would Robert spare them or will he have them executed ? 

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46 minutes ago, Mario Seddy said:

What if viserys and daenerys were captured after the death of William Darry and brought to Westeros ? Would Robert spare them or will he have them executed ? 

He would execute them.  I think most fans know this.  Robert, Stannis, and Renly would never have shown the Targaryen royal children any mercy.  Daenerys is under no obligation to show mercy to the Baratheons, nor the Lannisters.  They would not have shown any mercy to Viserys, nor to her.  She doesn't owe them any mercy.  

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I think Robert would have give them options. Viserys would have to choose between loosing his head or joining the Night's Watch. And Daenerys between loosing her head or joining the Silent Sisters.

Robert was relieved to see the corpses of Rhaegar's children because he would have to decide on what to do with them and he surely didn't want to think of it.

So I think he wouldn't execute them right away.

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Robert thought he was a hero. Heroes dont kill children. Probably he follows Jon Arryn's advice. Viserys takes the black and Daenerys joins the Silent Sisters. If some accident happens to both of them after some time is another issue.

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Robert wouldn't have the guts to kill them himself, but he'd drop the hint that this what he wanted.

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They would end up dead, most likely. More interesting question is whether Robert would have killed them himself, or simply "overlooked" Tywin Lannister "taking action".

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If they were captured on Robert's command they would likely not make it back to Westeros. Killing children is ugly business and Robert would not want to execute them in public. So he would likely give orders to kill them in Essos.

If they somehow ended up in Westeros anyway, they would likely go down the way of Edward II, Richard II, or the Princes in the Tower - no trial, no execution, just murder.

After all, as children neither Viserys III nor Daenerys would not have committed any crime.

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On 11/5/2019 at 3:14 AM, Mario Seddy said:

What if viserys and daenerys were captured after the death of William Darry and brought to Westeros ? Would Robert spare them or will he have them executed ? 

Would Varys ever allow that?

The only way that could happen is that some people (e.g. some exiled Westerosi) wanted to sell them to Robert and got the idea after some drunken party. Otherwise, Varys would make certain that they get a warning beforehand. As he (and Illyrio) made certain that they never took root  anywhere and were able to make alliances.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, as children neither Viserys III nor Daenerys would not have committed any crime.

Well, using the title "Viserys III, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men" would be punishable by death. He is introduced that way in Illyrio's party, and doubtless he publicly used this title during all his exile.

"Fire and Blood" tells us that Gaemon Palehair, the five-year old king crowned by the populace during the Dance, was only spared "on account of his youth". Viserys was 15 when Willem Darry died. Old enough to be considered a responsible adult and have him publicly executed without remorse, particularly if he was captured a couple of years after Darry's death.

If Robert had been able to execute Viserys, I'd say that he'd be content sending Dany to the Silent Sisters making sure she was the last dragon.

 

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Well, using the title "Viserys III, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men" would be punishable by death. He is introduced that way in Illyrio's party, and doubtless he publicly used this title during all his exile.

It is no crime when the rightful king calls himself king. Even Robert knows he is a bloody usurper.

We don't even know whose coronation took place first - Viserys III is no whore's son, he is the son and chosen heir of the last rightful king.

And, sure, like Gaemon Palehair (or Tommen) he was crowned as a child. His mother likely didn't ask him whether he wanted to be king or not.

The idea that you can construct a moral or legal failure out of that would make any such trial a charade. There is no reason that Viserys III should be ashamed that he calls himself king.

Even more so since that would have happened in places where the Iron Throne has no power. Any crimes committed in the Free Cities would have to be punished by the authorities there - and an arrest and an abduction at the hands of Robert's people would itself constitute a crime.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

If Robert had been able to execute Viserys, I'd say that he'd be content sending Dany to the Silent Sisters making sure she was the last dragon.

As I said, I doubt Robert would want to execute children, so he would not bother with a trial. If he had decided to want them gone - as he did in AGoT - he would do by ways of murder, not arrest. And it would of course involve both of them, he wanted Rhaenys dead, too, so he should also not spare Daenerys, even more so since she was a living womb who could produce more dragon spawn. A silent sister can run away, can have sex, can give birth to children.

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is no crime when the rightful king calls himself king. Even Robert knows he is a bloody usurper.

We don't even know whose coronation took place first - Viserys III is no whore's son, he is the son and chosen heir of the last rightful king.

And, sure, like Gaemon Palehair (or Tommen) he was crowned as a child. His mother likely didn't ask him whether he wanted to be king or not.

The idea that you can construct a moral or legal failure out of that would make any such trial a charade. There is no reason that Viserys III should be ashamed that he calls himself king.

Even more so since that would have happened in places where the Iron Throne has no power. Any crimes committed in the Free Cities would have to be punished by the authorities there - and an arrest and an abduction at the hands of Robert's people would itself constitute a crime.

As I said, I doubt Robert would want to execute children, so he would not bother with a trial. If he had decided to want them gone - as he did in AGoT - he would do by ways of murder, not arrest. And it would of course involve both of them, he wanted Rhaenys dead, too, so he should also not spare Daenerys, even more so since she was a living womb who could produce more dragon spawn. A silent sister can run away, can have sex, can give birth to children.

Whoever caught them would know what Robert wanted, and just cut their throats on the spot.

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41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Whoever caught them would know what Robert wanted, and just cut their throats on the spot.

Yeah, most likely that.

The only scenario where they would be delivered to Westeros would be if some free operative for some reason caught them, was unwilling to kill them, and then sold them to KL.

And then we would get the 'the prisoners died in their cells while they were waiting for their sham of a trial we could not possibly have because it would make us look even more stupid' scenario we got for the kings and princes I mentioned above.

I don't think Robert is beyond burying some dragon spawn in a cell and starving them to death there. Or just refuse them water, then it is over much sooner.

Edited by Lord Varys

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, most likely that.

The only scenario where they would be delivered to Westeros would be if some free operative for some reason caught them, was unwilling to kill them, and then sold them to KL.

And then we would get the 'the prisoners died in their cells because there could be a sham of a trial' scenario we got for the kings and princes I mentioned above.

I don't think Robert is beyond burying some dragon spawn in a cell and starving them to death there. Or just refuse them water, then it is over much sooner.

For sure, or they'd "commit suicide" or catch a chill or whatever.

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On 11/5/2019 at 10:31 AM, Aldarion said:

They would end up dead, most likely. More interesting question is whether Robert would have killed them himself, or simply "overlooked" Tywin Lannister "taking action".

I think Robert's father-in-law would have made the arrangements with the king looking the other way.

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Just now, SeanF said:

For sure, or they'd "commit suicide" or catch a chill or whatever.

Chills are good. Children committing suicide looks silly. I'm still flabbergasted by the idea that 'suicide' really convinced anyone in the death of Queen Jaehaera - I guess people thought she emulated her mother or something like that - but this is not exactly a convincing tale. Somebody dying of sickness is, at least in this world.

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Just now, Lion of the West said:

I think Robert's father-in-law would have made the arrangements with the king looking the other way.

Tywin would be in CR. Robert is the king. He can find and employ thugs of his own. He most likely even had some of those in his employ, although we never see them. Think of Clayton Suggs, Richard Horpe, etc. - they are all Baratheon men who only end up in Stannis' service later on. But they would have gladly done as he asked, as would have Ser Mandon Moore or Ser Meryn Trant, not to mention Sandor Clegane (who may already have been at court in this scenario).

And he could also have told Jaime to continue his good work. He would have been his to command, too.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Chills are good. Children committing suicide looks silly. I'm still flabbergasted by the idea that 'suicide' really convinced anyone in the death of Queen Jaehaera - I guess people thought she emulated her mother or something like that - but this is not exactly a convincing tale. Somebody dying of sickness is, at least in this world.

For all that Tywin is seen (and sees himself) as Macchiavellian, killing Elia and her children was a mistake - because it left in being a large clan, the Martells, who would plot revenge, and the Martells were far too numerous to wipe out, as well as having plenty of other relatives in Dorne.  The Martells would actually have been well-disposed towards the new regime if Elia and her children were spared, given how Rhaegar had upset them.

It's like the murder of Edward V's children.  It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.  People would generally accept that a man who had seized the Throne would eliminate rival claimants and their adult male heirs, but the murder of infants was a step too far.  Even people like Octavian and Sulla didn't cross that particular line.

Edited by SeanF

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

For all that Tywin is seen (and sees himself) as Macchiavellian, killing Elia and her children was a mistake - because it left in being a large clan, the Martells, who would plot revenge, and the Martells were far too numerous to wipe out, as well as having plenty of other relatives in Dorne.  The Martells would actually have been well-disposed towards the new regime if Elia and her children were spared, given how Rhaegar had upset them.

I think Tywin cared more about his own revenge (have you ever thought about what he intended to do Aerys II before he would allow him to die if his men had captured him alive?) against House Targaryen and getting into the good graces of Robert by doing the ugly things for him while he was still away.

I doubt he actually inquired what Robert wanted, he would have had enough reports of Robert's hatred for the Targaryens to know that this should go as he wanted it - even more so since he was still Tywin Lannister of Casterly Rock, a man who is feared by all and whose friendship to have is much better than the opposite. And apparently his 'plan' was not to kill the children as brutally as he did.

Tywin's assessment of Dorne is more or less correct. They are too weak to threaten him, and Doran Martell is too cautious to ever even try. If Robert and Stannis had done their jobs and eradicated House Targaryen for good, Doran wouldn't even have had pawns to build castles in the air with.

I'm also not convinced that Tywin wanted to spare Elia. She had stolen Cersei's place at Rhaegar's side. She had to be punished for that.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Tywin cared more about his own revenge (have you ever thought about what he intended to do Aerys II before he would allow him to die if his men had captured him alive?) against House Targaryen and getting into the good graces of Robert by doing the ugly things for him while he was still away.

I doubt he actually inquired what Robert wanted, he would have had enough reports of Robert's hatred for the Targaryens to know that this should go as he wanted it - even more so since he was still Tywin Lannister of Casterly Rock, a man who is feared by all and whose friendship to have is much better than the opposite. And apparently his 'plan' was not to kill the children as brutally as he did.

Tywin's assessment of Dorne is more or less correct. They are too weak to threaten him, and Doran Martell is too cautious to ever even try. If Robert and Stannis had done their jobs and eradicated House Targaryen for good, Doran wouldn't even have had pawns to build castles in the air with.

I'm also not convinced that Tywin wanted to spare Elia. She had stolen Cersei's place at Rhaegar's side. She had to be punished for that.

No, I don't believe he intended to spare her, either.  I don't think even Ser Gregor Clegane would have killed her without instructions.  

Edited by SeanF

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