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Mrstrategy

Robb stark education

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Was Robb stark education lacking in politics  since it seem that Robb stark was good as as military commander but horrible as a political leader and never realize or understood what his decisions/choices would cause just looking as him not punishing his mother for letting Jaime go,breaking his word to Freys and execution of Karstark instead of either sending him to wall or at least delay punishment to the end of war.

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1 hour ago, Mrstrategy said:

Was Robb stark education lacking in politics  since it seem that Robb stark was good as as military commander but horrible as a political leader and never realize or understood what his decisions/choices would cause just looking as him not punishing his mother for letting Jaime go,breaking his word to Freys and execution of Karstark instead of either sending him to wall or at least delay punishment to the end of war.

tbf no one seemed all that bothered by his handling of Catelyn besides Karstark who was already a bit off the deep end at that point.

He was fully aware of what would happen with the Frey's and made a mistake that he attempted to make right.

Executing Karstark was the right call.

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He lacked in education period. His military skills don't come from education, or things he learned from his father but from natural born warrior instinct. He was thrown into the river and managed to swim rather than drown, in that case. But as with lack of education on waging war he severely lacked it in management and politics as well. It is very good that Ned taught him to be "honorable" but not bothering to instill some realism, sense of consequences for action, duty to realm rather than individuals and understanding his vassal lords rather than focusing on his own family exclusively is what led to his downfall. 

 

Lets look at his behavior. He sacrificed Northern Infantry and lost most of it, so he can surprise Jamie Lannister and win a battle against him. He organized a guard of Heirs to the North for himself, and then used it as a blunt instrument, pushing it into the grinder and leading to deaths of many heirs to noble houses and in some cases leaving houses that stood for thousands of years heirless. He promised to marry one of the Frey girls, but his fear of her being ugly led him to sleep with another. Which isn't a problem in of itself, King Robert left bastards in his wake wherever he went. But he decided he'll forget the fact that hundreds of Frey levies died for him, that heir that Walder Frey groomed since his birth to inherit the twins, died for him, alongside many other Freys, and that he'll marry a woman who no one would judge him for raping, nevermind just getting pregnant. He doesn't share his plans with Edmure, a lord in his own right whose land is being ravaged because of him and his idiot mother. He executes Karskark, who lost two sons and had third imprissoned over two kids no one cares about. He deserved to die

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On 12/28/2019 at 2:15 AM, Mrstrategy said:

Was Robb stark education lacking in politics  since it seem that Robb stark was good as as military commander but horrible as a political leader and never realize or understood what his decisions/choices would cause just looking as him not punishing his mother for letting Jaime go,breaking his word to Freys and execution of Karstark instead of either sending him to wall or at least delay punishment to the end of war.

He should have forgiven Karstark and Catelyn. He made the worst choices of the three of them.  Their collective theme "the things we do for love" is apt.  Karstark betrayed his command because he loved his sons.  Catelyn let Jaime go for the love of her daughters.  Robb broke his oath to Walder because he wanted Jeyne.

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Robb Stark didn't have a well-rounded education.  The north is an isolated and culturally backwards place.  The Starks got used to having things their way without the need for complex diplomacy.  But even so, it doesn't take an educated person to realize the importance of the oath to the Freys.  Robb was selfish.

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From the start of the AGoT Ned tells Catelyn that Robb is not ready yet and that she should stay to help him.

That said, it was impossible for Robb to win, he didn't lost for one of his mistakes, but because everything that could go wrong went even worst. Ramsey and the civil war in the north are not his fault, Renly death is not his fault, Stannis losing at Blackwater was not his fault, Edmure wasting the man power of the riverlands and being defeat by Jaime were not Robb's fault.

Given the role that Robb was tutored to, he was great, as a warrior he proved himself, during the feast in Winterfell with the bannerman he bend them to his will and even though Ned left with most of the structure of Winterfell, Robb with the help of Luwin choose fit replacements. His big blunder as lord of winterfell was the way Tyrion disarmed him on his return from the wall.

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His big mistake was putting someone he did not trust completely in charge of ¾ of his army.

Pardoning Cat was the right call, although I would argue that since he planned to put her under de facto house arrest, that he wasn't pardoning her entirely.

Executing Karstark is a decision I would say is neutral, if not outright correct. The magnitude of his crime was worse than Catelyn's, not to mention that he murdered Tully men in the process, and ordered his part of the Northern cavalry to desert.

Marrying Jeyne was of course stupid, but the mistake reminds me of something Qhorin told Jon in ACoK:

Quote

"Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe."

He put his honour before his realm, and so paid the price. That being said, I think there was a good chance of Frey turning on him even if he did not break the marriage contract. I don't think they would have gone to the level of the Red Wedding if they didn't feel they had been wronged, but I am not sure they would have kept fighting for him when he was up against the entirety of the South.

In any case, if Tywin didn't have a plan to defeat Robb, he would have been a lot more aggressive militarily, probably attacking the Riverlands with the entirety of the Tyrell-Lannister host, as opposed to the fraction of it which takes to the field again.

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He should have tried harder to rescue Sansa. Because he left Sansa to her fate, Catelyn was desperate enough to free Jaime and the Red Wedding might not have happened.

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49 minutes ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

That being said, I think there was a good chance of Frey turning on him even if he did not break the marriage contract. I don't think they would have gone to the level of the Red Wedding if they didn't feel they had been wronged, but I am not sure they would have kept fighting for him when he was up against the entirety of the South.

GRRM said the same

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him..

and I would also point out that by this point Robb was already doomed and the only consequence of the break of the marriage was that he changed his death on the field for his death on the Twins.

Robb did not lost the war for one of his mistakes, he lost because of impossible odds were pushed against him, before the Tyrells saving the Lannisters at BW, Robb was soundly defeating Tywin in the field.

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On 12/28/2019 at 9:00 PM, Hrulj said:

He lacked in education period. His military skills don't come from education, or things he learned from his father but from natural born warrior instinct. He was thrown into the river and managed to swim rather than drown, in that case. But as with lack of education on waging war he severely lacked it in management and politics as well. It is very good that Ned taught him to be "honorable" but not bothering to instill some realism, sense of consequences for action, duty to realm rather than individuals and understanding his vassal lords rather than focusing on his own family exclusively is what led to his downfall. 

 

Lets look at his behavior. He sacrificed Northern Infantry and lost most of it, so he can surprise Jamie Lannister and win a battle against him. He organized a guard of Heirs to the North for himself, and then used it as a blunt instrument, pushing it into the grinder and leading to deaths of many heirs to noble houses and in some cases leaving houses that stood for thousands of years heirless. He promised to marry one of the Frey girls, but his fear of her being ugly led him to sleep with another. Which isn't a problem in of itself, King Robert left bastards in his wake wherever he went. But he decided he'll forget the fact that hundreds of Frey levies died for him, that heir that Walder Frey groomed since his birth to inherit the twins, died for him, alongside many other Freys, and that he'll marry a woman who no one would judge him for raping, nevermind just getting pregnant. He doesn't share his plans with Edmure, a lord in his own right whose land is being ravaged because of him and his idiot mother. He executes Karskark, who lost two sons and had third imprissoned over two kids no one cares about. He deserved to die

:agree:

Robb Stark had never been outside the north. He was indeed lacking in education.  He had a maester and could read, which isn't much of an education because it was a very narrow curriculum.  Very narrow indeed.  He had training for a narrow subject but lacked critical thinking skills.  

Edited by Anck Su Namun

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23 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

:agree:

Robb Stark had never been outside the north. He was indeed lacking in education.  He had a maester and could read, which isn't much of an education because it was a very narrow curriculum.  Very narrow indeed.  He had training for a narrow subject but lacked critical thinking skills.  

“The realm,” Maester Luwin said, “and Winterfell. Theon, once I taught you sums and letters, history and warcraft. And might have taught you more, had you wished to learn. ”

“ Instead he raised you among his own sons, the sweet boys you have butchered, and to my undying shame I trained you in the arts of war. ”

And that's just what Theon would have learned with Robb. We know Jon has an extensive knowledge of the North and south, which he learned alongside Robb in addition to "swords or sums or most anything". Robb knew the precedents of the KG and the legitimization of bastards, and was curious enough to ask about the Mudds.

Don't get me wrong, he definitely showed poor judgment in the affairs of marriage and the realpolitik of justice, but a lot of that can be attributed to being ... 15 and a bit to being his father's son. Roose Bolton wasn't entirely wrong when saying boy lords were the bane of any house; however to say his education is lacking flies in the face of pretty much everything else we've seen. Lords who are extensively educated are made special note of (e.g. Oberyn Martell, Lyonel Strong, Gunthor Hightower) and Tyrion also notes that Aegon VI is more educated than half the lords of Westeros. Barbrey Dustin points out many lords are illiterate -- we've seen at least one illiterate Lord Baratheon and neither Renly nor Robert really cared for books. We know Robb was taught by a maester with many links and a master at arms, his father had been fostered in the Vale, and his mother was from the Riverlands. That's a pretty wide foundation for knowledge, as wide or wider than most of the scions of great houses.

 

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It wasn't so much Robb's lack of education that failed him, it was being put in the position he was in by his bannermen and the situation that Westeros found itself in that really screwed him over. Being named "King in the North" limited his diplomatic options and put him in a corner with regards to the courses open to him. Instead of being the commander of an Army composed of the North and the Riverlands engaged in a revolt against the tyranny of a (bastard) King he was himself a King leading a war for Independence. Instead of a beacon for anti-Lannister / Crown Lords and Knights above the Blackwater he's a King looking to remove the North and the Riverlands from Seven Kingdoms and thus someone who is making themselves an enemy of every contender for the Iron Throne. 

If he had sworn for Stannis then it adds legitimacy (via military strength and power) to Stannis' cause. Might be enough to get Renly to back down and join forces with Stannis if he is made Stannis' heir. Maybe enough to get Dorne onside as well. At the very least Houses in the Crownlands or even the Vale know that they can join Robb's host and not be left in the cold to face the justice of the Iron Throne even if Robb wins. Westerosi Civil Wars have split regions before, maybe some of the more militant Vale Houses decide to honor Jon's memory by throwing in with Ned Stark's son as they did against the last tyrant King.

However Robb is stuck fighting for Northern and Rivermen Independence. As King to the Rivermen because --- well because he won a couple of battles and his mother was born a Tully. It was his bannermen that put him in that position and that was Robb's main educational failing -- he didn't have the experience managing his bannermen. Instead of keeping them focused he allows their passions to sweep him up and push him into a political corner. His more seasoned bannermen like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark look down on him and Bolton certainly started to look for options to save his own ass once Robb was declared King - since nobody going for the Iron Throne was willing to give up the North and the Riverlands. He just doesn't know how to handle those under him - he doesn't realize that Edmure needed clearer instructions, that he needed to keep an eye on Roose Bolton lest the Leech Lord get ideas (seriously he ran off to the Westerlands and left Roose in charge of over half his army) - and Robb's a bad judge of character. 

He was smart but he wasn't experienced and he got poor diplomatic council from his mother and other advisers and in the end his inability to control his bannermen and keep them on task was the weak spot that got him killed.  

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While Robb was certainly inexperienced in both military and political matters, some of the circumstances of his downfall are simply out of his control. Renly being killed and Stannis's being almost totally gutted after his defeat at Blackwater, and the Lannister/Tyrell !alliance that rises in the wake of these events are very large contributions to his demise.

Pur it this way, say things happen only slightly differently and Renly and Stannis are tied up fighting each other for a few months instead of a few days. Would Robbs original plan to draw Tywin back to the west and trap him there work?

Maybe...if it does, do Walder and Roose go through with the Red wedding without the backing of the Iron Throne?

Hard to say, but if Robb manages to defeat Tywin in the field and take him captive all bets are off in my opinion.

The story was obviously written the way it was for a reason but I dont think Robb written as a total failure, rather as a mostly good and talented person, who nonetheless lost everything.

Edited by Back door hodor

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On 12/30/2019 at 11:42 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

“The realm,” Maester Luwin said, “and Winterfell. Theon, once I taught you sums and letters, history and warcraft. And might have taught you more, had you wished to learn. ”

“ Instead he raised you among his own sons, the sweet boys you have butchered, and to my undying shame I trained you in the arts of war. ”

And that's just what Theon would have learned with Robb. We know Jon has an extensive knowledge of the North and south, which he learned alongside Robb in addition to "swords or sums or most anything". Robb knew the precedents of the KG and the legitimization of bastards, and was curious enough to ask about the Mudds.

 Don't get me wrong, he definitely showed poor judgment in the affairs of marriage and the realpolitik of justice, but a lot of that can be attributed to being ... 15 and a bit to being his father's son. Roose Bolton wasn't entirely wrong when saying boy lords were the bane of any house; however to say his education is lacking flies in the face of pretty much everything else we've seen. Lords who are extensively educated are made special note of (e.g. Oberyn Martell, Lyonel Strong, Gunthor Hightower) and Tyrion also notes that Aegon VI is more educated than half the lords of Westeros. Barbrey Dustin points out many lords are illiterate -- we've seen at least one illiterate Lord Baratheon and neither Renly nor Robert really cared for books. We know Robb was taught by a maester with many links and a master at arms, his father had been fostered in the Vale, and his mother was from the Riverlands. That's a pretty wide foundation for knowledge, as wide or wider than most of the scions of great houses.

 

Being 15 is no excuse for poor choices. If you use that as an excuse then you shouldn't rule in the first place. You can't say I'm an idiot when it suits you and claim otherwise when it doesn't. Art of war taught by Lewin is probably that, fight when you are superior, avoid fights when you are not, logistics etc. I doubt lewin taught him tactics. And even if he did he showcases he lacks a strategic mind. Sacrificing half your army to win a battle, consciously, is poor tactics and strategy. 

 

 

On 12/31/2019 at 1:19 AM, Back door hodor said:

While Robb was certainly inexperienced in both military and political matters, some of the circumstances of his downfall are simply out of his control. Renly being killed and Stannis's being almost totally gutted after his defeat at Blackwater, and the Lannister/Tyrell !alliance that rises in the wake of these events are very large contributions to his demise.

Pur it this way, say things happen only slightly differently and Renly and Stannis are tied up fighting each other for a few months instead of a few days. Would Robbs original plan to draw Tywin back to the west and trap him there work?

Maybe...if it does, do Walder and Roose go through with the Red wedding without the backing of the Iron Throne?

Hard to say, but if Robb manages to defeat Tywin in the field and take him captive all bets are off in my opinion.

The story was obviously written the way it was for a reason but I dont think Robb written as a total failure, rather as a mostly good and talented person, who nonetheless lost everything.

 

1. It's Robbs choice who he sends an envoy to. He chose Renly despite what his father did or what is right. Renly died. 

2. Stannis lost because Robb didn't bother telling Edmure to let Lannisters trough to the west. 

3. Walders red wedding decision hinges on breaking faith to him and losing the war. Robb was losing the war, and then broke fate. His future was sealed. 

4. He can't beat Tywin in the field. He sacrificed his infantry to win over Jaime. He doesn't have the men for it. 

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8 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Being 15 is no excuse for poor choices. If you use that as an excuse then you shouldn't rule in the first place. You can't say I'm an idiot when it suits you and claim otherwise when it doesn't. Art of war taught by Lewin is probably that, fight when you are superior, avoid fights when you are not, logistics etc. I doubt lewin taught him tactics. And even if he did he showcases he lacks a strategic mind. Sacrificing half your army to win a battle, consciously, is poor tactics and strategy. 

 

Except that his plan worked, he won a great victory and all of his objectives were completly, he relieved Riverrun, freed Edmure, got the hostage he needed to trade for his father and Roose still had a sizeble force at the end.

8 hours ago, Hrulj said:

1. It's Robbs choice who he sends an envoy to. He chose Renly despite what his father did or what is right. Renly died. 

 

Because dealing with the guy with the smallest army with a reputation of being complety stuborn with no frieds, that is burning sacred simbols and aproaching a new weird religion that burns people is all you need for a good PR...Renly was the only sensible choice to send a envoy to, no one can fault Robb for not predicting that the perfect healthy Renly would die the next weak.

8 hours ago, Hrulj said:

 2. Stannis lost because Robb didn't bother telling Edmure to let Lannisters trough to the west. 

 

Stannis lost because of Stannis. After not getting any news of the emisary that was arrested by Tarly he ignored the huge mass of men on his rear and went for a hail mary attempt to conquer KL, when he didn't need to. Stannis should have dealed with the rest of the Tyrell's army first and secured his position.

8 hours ago, Hrulj said:

4. He can't beat Tywin in the field. He sacrificed his infantry to win over Jaime. He doesn't have the men for it. 

Tywin was beat by Edmure with half his numbers.

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