Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Barristan was not just a yes men, he was able to make Aerys spare the squire in Brandon's group,

Are you perhaps confusing Dontos Hollard w/ Brandon’s squire?

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you perhaps confusing Dontos Hollard w/ Brandon’s squire?

Yeah, I kind of mixed the history of Dontos and Ethan Glover.

[Rufus Snow]

On 12/29/2019 at 9:35 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Are you perhaps confusing Dontos Hollard w/ Brandon’s squire?

Funny you should raise ole Dontos, as I was mulling over the Arthurian context, and Parsifal in particular - the perfect knight, the perfect fool... I'm sure the George is playing with that a bit, but if so he's stretched it way out of shape what with Dontos and Shagwell and all the rest...

As for our Barry, he's had his lapses into blind obedience rather than principled defiance. But knighthood is such a many-faceted thing. I can see in one light that Brienne has the best claim to 'True Knighthood', but Sandor also has a good claim through his honesty about a  knight just being for killing, a sword with a horse. Take all the pretty bows off it, that's all a knight is, and that's all Sandor is - and he doesn't pretend otherwise. Where do you draw the line between Sandor's realism and Sansa's romanticism? (and it was in a Romance that the perfect knight was a perfect fool, and Sansa waved her hand, and lo! it was so...)

[Back door hodor]

One of the major recurring themes of the whole universe in my opinion is that anyone who is remembered by history or widely held to be a paragon of chivalry is in fact, a total asshole. To the point that when we get FaB volume 2, I fully expect the drgonnight to be as bad a person if not whose than his brother Aegon the Unworthy.

All off the Mad Kings Knights were complicit in his crimes, The KGs of the dance played the game of thrones, only the Conciliator seems to have had True Knights defending him, and the best of them were a former religious fanatic and an upjumped commoner.

 

[zandru]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:56 PM, Platypus Rex said:

The "True Knight" of the series will be the wandering mystery knight once known as Sandor Clegane.   

I think you may be right, but also think that Sandor's fighting days may be over. He would still be good on horseback (hi ho Driftwood!), but his lameness at this point seems severe. Also, like the Elder Brother, he may have decided "not to kill again."

I do like the discussion of how Sandor may be basically "unrecognizeable", should he return to the world. He'd still be disturbingly tall, but will most likely have lost a lot of his muscularity, and may have developed a pious slump. But I strongly doubt his burn scars will have been healed. That would be in the realm of magic, not any medical technology available in those times.

Can one be a "true" yet non-fighting knight? Obviously not - the essence of knighthood is the killing. The vows etc are just a few gaudy ribbons hung on the sword.

Back to Barristan: He clearly put obedience over his vows of ethics, and called it "honor." He comdemned Jaime as "the Kingslayer" for putting ethics over obedience. And - mark my words - Barristan would have treated Mad King Joffrey the same way as Aerys, had Joffrey not freed him from his Kingsguard position. Barristan seems to have grown old in his service to kings without wising up, until near the very end.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I'm not sure a person can be a knight and a Kingsguard at the same time. The vows are in conflict. If you stand up to the king because he's a rapist, a murderer and whatever else, you're a traitor and if you don't do anything to protect those who need protecting, then you're a false knight.

Being a Kingsguard is a thankless job, especially for good men. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

With Barristan, I think what I hold against him is that he took a pardon from Robert knowing that he stepped over the corpses of children on his way to the Iron Throne.

And when he laments that Rhaegar never trusted him the way he trusted Arthur, maybe Rhaegar knew that Barristan was a liability to him because of his blind obedience to his Kingsguard vows.

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

I think you may be right, but also think that Sandor's fighting days may be over. He would still be good on horseback (hi ho Driftwood!), but his lameness at this point seems severe. Also, like the Elder Brother, he may have decided "not to kill again."I

I see no reason to suppose that Sandor's leg will not continue to heal and grow strong.  The threat was from an infection, not severed tendons.  And it is not clear to me that such a huge amount of time has passed, that we can rule out further recovery.

But I don't think he will ever ride "Driftwood" again.  Stranger is The Hound's horse, and it embodies the savagery of The Hound.  Also, it is a recognizable emblem of The Hound.

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I do like the discussion of how Sandor may be basically "unrecognizeable", should he return to the world. He'd still be disturbingly tall, but will most likely have lost a lot of his muscularity, and may have developed a pious slump. But I strongly doubt his burn scars will have been healed. That would be in the realm of magic, not any medical technology available in those times.

But, curiously enough, the Elder Brother's powers ARE hinted to be supernatural in nature -- the healing hands of a saint.

That said, I don't expect Sandor's face to be as good as new.  Nonetheless, his old burn scars WILL have to heal, if only because they will have to heal AGAIN.  The old scar tissue was sliced OFF in his last fight.  Why would GRRM do that, if he was not setting something up?

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Can one be a "true" yet non-fighting knight? Obviously not - the essence of knighthood is the killing. The vows etc are just a few gaudy ribbons hung on the sword.

Do you think Sandor, or the Elder Brother, will just cower on the Quiet Isle after a dragon shows up and starts devouring all the local maidens?  A true knight defends the WEAK by opposing the STRONG.   What is stronger than a dragon?  Yeah, I know, Sandor is afraid of fire.  Can a man be brave when he is afraid?  According to Ned, that is the only time he can be brave.  Dragons terrible wicked creatures; brave men kill them; it is known.

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The old scar tissue was sliced OFF in his last fight.

WHAT?

EVIDENCE?

 

eta: sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive, just don't see what support you have for this?

[frenin]

17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

And when he laments that Rhaegar never trusted him the way he trusted Arthur, maybe Rhaegar knew that Barristan was a liability to him because of his blind obedience to his Kingsguard vows.

Not like Arthur who died, taking with him 5 good men for no better reason than pride.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Not like Arthur who died, taking with him 5 good men for no better reason than pride.

Or died taking down 5 men who had just returned from fighting at the Trident.

I don't even know why I'm bothering replying to this.

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Or died taking down 5 men who had just returned from fighting at the Trident.

I don't even know why I'm bothering replying to this.

I don't know either, those men were at the Trident not in a small part for Rhaegar and were in Dorne because he had Ned's sister captivate, he had no reason to fight, no reason to die, no reason to kill, he died specifically because he was ordered to and rather dying than thinking.  Or you know, there was always the chance that Ned delivered his sister and his nephew to be killed??

[Platypus Rex]

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

WHAT?

EVIDENCE?

eta: sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive, just don't see what support you have for this?

"Sandor gave a grunt of pain.  The burned side of his head ran red from temple to cheek, and the stub of his ear was gone."

"When she came to his ear, she had to wrap up half his head to stop the bleeding."

Interestingly, the re-injury seems to be to upper part of the face (temple to cheek to ear) but the traditional wrappings  of the Quiet Isle cover the lower half of the face.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

"Sandor gave a grunt of pain.  The burned side of his head ran red from temple to cheek, and the stub of his ear was gone."

"When she came to his ear, she had to wrap up half his head to stop the bleeding."

Interestingly, the re-injury seems to be to upper part of the face (temple to cheek to ear) but the traditional wrappings cover lower.

My money is on the injury is a cut on the temple or forehead or scalp, that ended chopping off a bit of the ear. The blood running down to his cheek and even being all over his face doesn’t mean much, as a cut anywhere on the head will bleed profusely. 

ETA: and there’s more... what’s the point of having the burn scars “removed” by a sword like this, only to be replaced by another scar? After all, a slicing of most of the one side of the head will definitely leave a nasty big scar. 

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

My money is on the injury is a cut on the temple or forehead or scalp, that ended chopping off a bit of the ear. The blood running down to his cheek and even being all over his face doesn’t mean much, as a cut anywhere on the head will bleed profusely. 

The wound is described the instant it occurs, and already, before there is much time for bleeding, "the burned side of his face ran red from temple to cheek".

If it ended in chopping off a bit of his ear, then it is evidently a sort of side swipe, as opposed to some scratch with a sword tip.  Can we not follow the implications?  No, I cannot provide absolute proof.  I'm just following the implication of the clues we are given.

Any cut will bleed profusely, but here, the profuseness of the bleeding is contrasted with Sandor's other cuts.

It is the injury that causes the most pain when Arya pours wine on it.  Sandor actually passes out at this point.  The amount of bandaging needed to stop the bleeding is emphasized.  Sandor had already tried, unsuccessfully, to stop the bleeding with his cloak.

"He had tied a strip of cloth about his neck and another around his thigh, and taken the squire's cloak […], but when the Hound wadded it up and pressed it to his ear it soon turned red.  Arya was afraid he would collapse …"

And I don't think we need to quibble about how much of the scar tissue I can prove was cut off.  As we found out with Brienne's face, any wound can become infected and can lead to tissue needing to be cut away.

The question remains, why so much emphasis on a re-injury of that part of the face that was already injured and already scarred?  Is it random details that don't mean anything, or GRRM setting up something?  I think GRRM is setting up something.  Just my opinion.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The wound is described the instant it occurs, and already, before there is much time for bleeding, "the burned side of his face ran red from temple to cheek".

No, the wound is not described, the description is of the blood running down his face. 

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Any cut will bleed profusely,

This is absolutely incorrect. 

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

but here, the profuseness of the bleeding is contrasted with Sandor's other cuts.

It is the injury that causes the most pain when Arya pours wine on it.  Sandor actually passes out at this point.  The amount of bandaging needed to stop the bleeding is emphasized.  Sandor had already tried, unsuccessfully, to stop the bleeding with his cloak.

"He had tied a strip of cloth about his neck and another around his thigh, and taken the squire's cloak […], but when the Hound wadded it up and pressed it to his ear it soon turned red.  Arya was afraid he would collapse …"

That’s because head wounds bleed a lot, as I said. Cuts of the same length and depth, done w/ the same instrument, on the head and, say, the forearm or thigh, will not bleed the same; the head wound will bleed significantly more (volume) and faster, and will be harder to staunch.

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

And I don't think we need to quibble about how much of the scar tissue I can prove was cut off.  As we found out with Brienne's face, any wound can become infected and can lead to tissue needing to be cut away.

I said nothing about how much scar tissue was gone or not. What I said was that there’s no point in removing one scar, only to have it be replaced by another. I mean, let’s say his whole facial scar was sliced clean off. Then when that wound heals it will leave... a scar. So, what’s the point?

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The question remains, why so much emphasis on a re-injury of that part of the face that was already injured and already scarred?  Is it random details that don't mean anything, or GRRM setting up something?  I think GRRM is setting up something.  Just my opinion.

We will find out eventually. 

[Nagini's Neville]

Maybe there is some confusion about what I was trying to get at. I definitely think Barry S is knight, just not completely a "True Knight", who is characterized by protecting the weak, the innocent, the ones, who can't protect themselves and don't deserve to be killed or harmed.

"True knights protect the weak"

Until now, in my opinion, only Brienne fits that description. (That doesn't of course mean other characters might not fit it in there future) And I guess Jon as well, and Ned and also Sam actually.

Even if Brienne might get a bit dishonorable be lying to Jaime, she presumably does it to save the weak (Pod in this case) and that's what a "True Knight" is all about 

[Platypus Rex]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, the wound is not described, the description is of the blood running down his face. 

That's one interpretation, I suppose.   But, again, I'm just playing connect the dots with what I think might plausibly be clues. 

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That’s because head wounds bleed a lot, as I said.

Maybe.  I guess neck wounds don't count as head wounds?  And is bleeding that soaks through an entire cloak even while pressure is being applied not a bit profuse even by head-wound standards?

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I said nothing about how much scar tissue was gone or not. What I said was that there’s no point in removing one scar, only to have it be replaced by another. I mean, let’s say his whole facial scar was sliced clean off. Then when that wound heals it will leave... a scar. So, what’s the point?

As I said, I am playing connect the dots with the "clue" (if that's what it is) about the miraculous healing powers of the Elder Brother.

Also, even if one scar is replaced with another, the scar will not look the same.  And that might be important, because Sandor is now not the only 6'8" master swordsman in the series with fresh scars on one side of the face.   Even if Sandor is still, in some sense, scarred, GRRM may be setting up a situation where Brienne looks more like Sandor, than Sandor looks like Sandor.

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We will find out eventually. 

Right.

[Nagini's Neville]

When it comes to Sandor's injury, of course don't know, if he'll ever be fully healed again, but I was actually surprised, that he was able to walk at all already. It was not so long ago, that he was injured and leg wounds take f-ing forever to heal. It is not only the injury itself,  but you need to build up the muscle tissue again and you have phantom pain till forever, even when the wound is already healed.

It is different than a wound anywhere else, because your legs have to carry your whole body of course, it could very well be, that Sandor could actually walk properly mechanically, but is unable to do so because of the pain of his still healing wound.

Not to upset any Hound fans, but if he really comes back, what exactly would he have to offer except for his fighting skills? I mean he is not dumb, but he is also no Littlefinger and he is also not high-born, so why would anyone care about him? What would be his strength and his function in the overall story?

But then of course GRRM is good, when it comes to changing character's purpose. But I just can't see what would be his, if he couldn't fight. (probably my lack of imagination) 

 

[Platypus Rex]

29 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not to upset any Hound fans, but if he really comes back, what exactly would he have to offer except for his fighting skills?

Well, unless you think Barristan is an adequate embodiment, the series is still short a True Knight.

Such a transformation might upset "Hound fans" even more, of course.  "Hound fans" probably like Sandor the way he was.  To see any point in this, you have to agree somewhat with Sansa's side of the argument, that knights ought to be True Knights, like those in the stories.

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I mean he is not dumb, but he is also no Littlefinger and he is also not high-born, so why would anyone care about him?

What was the point of Duncan the Tall?  Was he important only because he acquired a friend in high places?  I'm not saying that is necessarily wrong, but I would find such a take on Duncan the Tall to be rather depressing.

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What would be his strength and his function in the overall story?

Defend the weak?  Give a damn about the peasants being slaughtered?  Rescue a maiden from a dragon, or a giant, or a zombie, or a squisher?

[Nagini's Neville]

On 31. Dezember 2019 at 3:29 AM, Rufus Snow said:

As for our Barry, he's had his lapses into blind obedience rather than principled defiance. But knighthood is such a many-faceted thing. I can see in one light that Brienne has the best claim to 'True Knighthood', but Sandor also has a good claim through his honesty about a  knight just being for killing, a sword with a horse. Take all the pretty bows off it, that's all a knight is, and that's all Sandor is - and he doesn't pretend otherwise. Where do you draw the line between Sandor's realism and Sansa's romanticism? (and it was in a Romance that the perfect knight was a perfect fool, and Sansa waved her hand, and lo! it was so...)

When they have that conversation I actually don't think Sansa is that blind/romantic about knighthood anymore. She knows what a lot of knights are like, because she is beaten up by them on a regular basis, while other knights are watching and don't do anything to help her. And Sandor of course knows that too, because those are the men he has been dealing with his entire life. The difference between them is completely determined by their life experience. Sansa is not ready to give up on her belief in the goodness in people and her believe that there are "True Knights", who will protect the weak no matter what. And why would she? She after all the has grown up with men like that (or at least pretty close)- her father and her brothers (and because of that probably most other men in WF) .  While the Hound hasn't encountered a lot of those men and if he did, he probably didn't trust in their "true knightness".

Saying there are only predators and victims and that all men enjoy killing (while there is a lot of truth in that) is not 100% realistic. We know Ned and Robb don't enjoy killing and we know the Stark/Snow men do not want to kill the weak, so they don't completely fit in the predator role.

Just being honest doesn't make him a true knight imo, that just makes him, well, just honest, which is definitely an admirable quality. He would have been a "true Knight" if he'd protected the weak. But maybe he'll become one in the future.