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Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

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With all his flaws, IMO Renly is the best of the lot. Probably, Robert would have scored first at Renly's age, but he has become a sad pathetic man that doesn't even respect himself.

Stannis is clearly the less deserving. The way he fled from court abandoning his two brothers to their own luck is a really cowardly thing to do. And it's very sad that he didn't even show remorse when both Robert and Ned were murdered because of him not having bothered to warn them.

It seems to me that the average Westerosi would agree with me. Both Robert and Loras managed to gather massive armies that followed them through their charisma and leadership. Stannis couldn't even get the respect of his own bannermen.

And while Stannis has some reputation as a general, it's completely undeserved. All that he accomplished is to resist for nearly a year the Siege of Storm's End (thanks to Davos), capture Dragonstone after the war (all the Targaryen fleet had been destroyed by a storm the night before, and he allowed the princes to escape), and defeat the Iron Fleet with all the Royal Navy (the Ironborn never had any chance against a united Westeros. Balon had simply gambled that the realm wouldn't support Robert and he lost).

Edited by The hairy bear

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23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Renly is trying to depose his brother’s “rightful” heir and take the IT for himself.

No, he's trying to depose his nephew's seat due to him, with valid reason, believing that Cersei would be a serious threat to him should she become Regent.

Not only does Stannis not offer any evidence for his claims, but he only crowns himself after both Renly and Robb have done so. Everyone takes it for granted that Robb has to respect the oaths of his new vassals, Renly is no different.

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He very much depends on the nobility in general seeing him as someone who is reliable and sticks to his word. 

Not entirely. On a pretty insignificant matter like this, pretty sure he'd get away with it, especially as no woman had ever been made a knight before.

I highly doubt that in this sexist world of Westeros his nobles are going to take this against him. If Brienne had said she wanted a Horse to become one of his Kingsguard do you think they'd hold that against him if he said no?

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 And he told Brienne she could have anything she wanted that was within his power to give her. 

Sure. Given being a Knight was a man's role in their world and it is not in Renly's power to make Brienne a man, he could have easily said no.

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While trash-talking and mocking her behind her back.

eh?

The younger man started for the door. But there he turned back. "Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man's mail, pretending to be a knight."

How is that trash talking or even mocking her?

Brienne in their world is absurd. In our world I find Furries to be absurd. Thinking that does not mean I'm trash talking them or even mocking them. You are exaggerating what Renly did, he was someone who was always repsectful to Brienne, even if he privately thought she absurd.

"I told Renly that a woman had no place in the Rainbow Guard. She won the mêlée with a trick."

Pretty sure far more of Renly's host agreed with Loras on this one, yet Renly supported Brienne's life choices even if he did not understand them.

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I don’t really see that as either respectful or humane. But to each their own. 

Either what? Where is your evidence of Renly doing either?

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Later Stannis.

I appreciate evolution. Realizing that being king is a responsibility whether or not you have the title yet is a huge deal in Westeros. Granted, there's still a self-serving element to Stannis' choice, but it's still a big improvement. I also like how he was absurdly rigid and is evolving into someone who is much more pragmatic than he used to be. He's a very interesting read for that reason.

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8 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 It seems to me that the average Westerosi would agree with me. Both Robert and Loras managed to gather massive armies that followed them through their charisma and leadership. Stannis couldn't even get the respect of his own bannermen.

 

To Stannis credit, his own tiny army has followed him through hell and they were willing to commit a collective suicide by facing Renly's massive army.

Stannis may never be as charismatic as his brothers but when he gains people's loyalty, it seems everlasting.

 

 

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 And while Stannis has some reputation as a general, it's completely undeserved. All that he accomplished is to resist for nearly a year the Siege of Storm's End (thanks to Davos), capture Dragonstone after the war (all the Targaryen fleet had been destroyed by a storm the night before, and he allowed the princes to escape), and defeat the Iron Fleet with all the Royal Navy (the Ironborn never had any chance against a united Westeros. Balon had simply gambled that the realm wouldn't support Robert and he lost).

Almost all people's reputation is completely underserved. 

People like Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar, Tarly, Tywin, Jaime and a long etc have a reputation either as warriors (Dayne is the deadliest of Aerys' seven having served only in peace) or as generals (the greatest general on the land Tarly...) that are completely at odds of what we know about them, but the author's intention  is that we believe those people are what their reputation says they are.

About Stannis in particular, his achievements are incredible. Few people would've survived a siege like that.  that long, he did not allow the Targs to escape, they were already gone when he arrived. The Ironborn are indomitable at sea, beating them (i agree that Balon was doomed from the start) in their own game is simply impressive.

 

But yes, the man let Robert and Ned die, that cannot be really argued.

Edited by frenin

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Later Stannis.

I appreciate evolution. Realizing that being king is a responsibility whether or not you have the title yet is a huge deal in Westeros. Granted, there's still a self-serving element to Stannis' choice, but it's still a big improvement. I also like how he was absurdly rigid and is evolving into someone who is much more pragmatic than he used to be. He's a very interesting read for that reason.

This right here. For some reason people say Stannis doesn't have an ark. He has a great ark. I can't wait to see how he develops in TWOW!

As for some other reasons, of the top of my head:

  • Modesty and humility. Stannis seems to be the only king that that fully respects his position. For almost everybody else the Thrones is just a play thing that grants more power, for Stannis it is a means to an end. Which brings us to
  • Justice and meritocracy. First off Stannis has a great sense of justice. He may be harsh, but he is fair, being equally harsh on everybody. He seems to be the only person for whom the laws of the realm mean anything. He also values talent and worth, caring little and less about status. This can be seen by his choice of Davos as his right hand man, trusting him due to his skill and seeming ever growing political shrewdness.
  • Tactical and strategic genius. Stannis seems to be the only true king which can be described as a military genius. Robb may have equaled him if not even surpassed him tactically speaking, but when looking at the strategic level we can see that Stannis is the superior man. For one Stannis seems to have a real capacity to understand and communicate with his subordinates (unlike Robb at the Fords, poor Edmure did the best he could with the information he had at hand). His only failure was the Blackwater, and even then Imry Florent was the main culprit, failing to send a recon force ahead. Stannis's only mistake was not to try and send some more scouts ahead, after his main ones were killed by the clans. Everything else in his career shows the marks of the greatest generals of out history, including: Capacity to understand and adapt to the enemy, using the terrain to his advantage, maintaining discipline, inspiring loyalty in his men. Also I think against Renly, Stannis would have come out on top, doing a Battle on the Golden Spurs.
  • Wit. Stannis has just the best humor in the story rivalling even the great Blackadder in terms of dry wit.
  • Resilience. Many men would have given up when Stannis just persisted (Storm's End, beginning of the Wot5k, after the Blackwater and more recently the battle on Ice)
  • Religious tolerance. You may raise your eyebrows, but think about it, he flawlesly commands a force that has 3 different religions, without ever giving into religious madness. R'hllor is just another tool for him. As he said ,,there will be no burnings, pray harder".
  • His feelings for Renly. If I hear one more person call Stannis a kinslayer, I'd like to remind them that is just in the fan-fiction written by the 2 Stannis hating chucklefucks. In GRRM's book Stannis doesn't kill his brother (at least not directly) but still feel regret for what happened and still loves him, despite him being a traitor who valued himself and his ambition higher then his duty to Stannis, his house, and the realm.
  • His loyalty to Robert. Robert for some reason hated Stannis and constantly snubbed and humiliating him, most grievously when granting him Dragonstone instead of Storm's End. However Stannis kept being his brother's most loyal supporter, never wavering in his loyalty for him.

All in all long live the Mannis, the one true king of Westeros!

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Modesty and humility. Stannis seems to be the only king that that fully respects his position. For almost everybody else the Thrones is just a play thing that grants more power, for Stannis it is a means to an end. Which brings us to
  •  

For Stannis the Throne is his, he only learns that he need to gain the right to be king when he's beaten and bloodied.

 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Justice and meritocracy. First off Stannis has a great sense of justice. He may be harsh, but he is fair, being equally harsh on everybody. He seems to be the only person for whom the laws of the realm mean anything. He also values talent and worth, caring little and less about status. This can be seen by his choice of Davos as his right hand man, trusting him due to his skill and seeming ever growing political shrewdness.
  •  

He appointed a man who was not qualified to the task of leading the ships on the Blackwater bay...

 

 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Wit. Stannis has just the best humor in the story rivalling even the great Blackadder in terms of dry wit.
  •  

Meh, to each their own, Renly seems funnier to me.

 

 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  • Religious tolerance. You may raise your eyebrows, but think about it, he flawlesly commands a force that has 3 different religions, without ever giving into religious madness. R'hllor is just another tool for him. As he said ,,there will be no burnings, pray harder".
  •  

Stannis was about to burn his own nephew alive because that may awake some stone dragons.  Stannis alows Septs and godswoods be torched and so on, do you know the reason of Guncer Sunglass' downfall right?? And ofc now he's commanding a force that has 3  different religions, the northmen, contrary to Stannis' southern army, will simply not suffer any of Stannis and co usual shenanigans against gods that are not Rhollor. And Stannis campaign is simply doomed without the North. 

People keep saying that Rhollor is just a tool for him, but so far, the only visible and real tool is Stannis.

 

 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  His feelings for Renly. If I hear one more person call Stannis a kinslayer, I'd like to remind them that is just in the fan-fiction written by the 2 Stannis hating chucklefucks. In GRRM's book Stannis doesn't kill his brother (at least not directly) but still feel regret for what happened and still loves him, despite him being a traitor who valued himself and his ambition higher then his duty to Stannis, his house, and the realm.
  •  

Stannis loving Renly is a post hoc nonsense and we would've been given the same bs from Renly had Stannis being the one dead. Brothers who love and care for each other don't act as the Baratheon bros did. Stannis saying that he loves Renly after he had killed him is as credible as Tywin finally acknowledging Tyrion after Jaime seemed gone for good.

Nor do i think that it says much him "grieving" his baby brother, if he didn't i'd outright call him a monster.

 

 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  His loyalty to Robert. Robert for some reason hated Stannis and constantly snubbed and humiliating him, most grievously when granting him Dragonstone instead of Storm's End. However Stannis kept being his brother's most loyal supporter, never wavering in his loyalty for him.

 

Hate is an incredible strong word that people keep using very thoughtlessly to validate their points, Robert never hated Stannis, he barely noticed him, and that was the problem. Stannis craved having with Robert the kind of relationship Ned and Bobby shared, he craved for Robert's attention and approval as much as Joffrey did, when he did not get that he soured and embittered, to the point of leaving Robert, Renly and Ned to their fates when he decided to name Eddard his Hand and not him. 

Robert could've been less of an ass as brother don't get me wrong, both him fucking the Florent girl in Stannis' wedding bed...:lmao:and blaming him for the Targs escape from are just him being an asshole and a drunk, but overall he didn't humiliate him and "slights" as Stannis being angry for not being granted Storm's End speak more of Stannis entitlement than of any humiliation.

 

Edited by frenin

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

 

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Wit. Stannis has just the best humor in the story rivalling even the great Blackadder in terms of dry wit.
  •  

Meh, to each their own, Renly seems funnier to me.

 

 

 My impression of Renly is that he  thinks he’s funny and would laugh at his own jokes.  Give me deadpan any day- Stannis or even Dolorous Ed.  

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6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Resilience. Many men would have given up when Stannis just persisted (Storm's End, beginning of the Wot5k, after the Blackwater and more recently the battle on Ice)
  •  

Neither king gave up, they just died. It's kind of hard to keep going after it, but hey Catelyn is there, I wonder if Stannis is capable of such feat.

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  • His feelings for Renly. If I hear one more person call Stannis a kinslayer, I'd like to remind them that is just in the fan-fiction written by the 2 Stannis hating chucklefucks. In GRRM's book Stannis doesn't kill his brother (at least not directly) but still feel regret for what happened and still loves him, despite him being a traitor who valued himself and his ambition higher then his duty to Stannis, his house, and the realm.
  •  

Well he is a kinslayer that is just a fact, and the fact that he mourns Renly is pointless because he was willing to sacrifice Edric Storm.

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  His loyalty to Robert. Robert for some reason hated Stannis and constantly snubbed and humiliating him, most grievously when granting him Dragonstone instead of Storm's End. However Stannis kept being his brother's most loyal supporter, never wavering in his loyalty for him.

 

Just wonder why Robert didn't like Stannis, let's see, constatly sulking or complaining, humorless, can't stay close to a woman, does not drink, is a huge hypocrite, self centered, self righetous, ungrateful (Robert was under no obligation to give him nothing and could keep SE and DS as GRRM said himself)... seems like a nice fella to spend time around.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

For Stannis the Throne is his, he only learns that he need to gain the right to be king when he's beaten and bloodied.

Not really. He learns he needs to earn it yes, but he always views the Throne as a means to bring justice and the rule of law.

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I will have justice for him. Aye and for Ned Stark and Jon Arryn as well. And... for Renly.

 

6 hours ago, frenin said:

He appointed a man who was not qualified to the task of leading the ships on the Blackwater bay...

We don't know that for sure. Imry (I think, not sure how it's written) may have been a competent commander for all we know, he just got a bit rushed for time due to the delays and was probably too over confident to scout ahead.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Stannis was about to burn his own nephew alive because that may awake some stone dragons.  Stannis alows Septs and godswoods be torched and so on, do you know the reason of Guncer Sunglass' downfall right?? And ofc now he's commanding a force that has 3  different religions, the northmen, contrary to Stannis' southern army, will simply not suffer any of Stannis and co usual shenanigans against gods that are not Rhollor. And Stannis campaign is simply doomed without the North. 

People keep saying that Rhollor is just a tool for him, but so far, the only visible and real tool is Stannis.

He cut down godswoods and burned septs when the vast majority of his army followed R'hllor. And yes he was about to burn Edric Storm, but think about it. Up to that point Mel had done everything she had promised, including the trick with the leeches (it doesn't matter that she probably wasn't involved and the cogs had started moving for a long time, something Mel probably saw in her flames but kept secret to perform the leech trick). As for motivation and who is the tool well...

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So why bother with this new one? I've asked myself this very question. I know little and care less of Gods, but the Red Woman has power. If nothing else a women who is capable of inspiring such dread in grown men is not to be despised. And perhaps she can do more, I mean to find out....

 

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Stannis saying that he loves Renly after he had killed him

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Well he is a kinslayer that is just a fact

Alright. There is no evidence that Stannis did anything to kill Renly besides fuck Mel. Mel even says so, under Storm's End with Davos. She did that of her own volition. Plus even if he killed Renly, what do you think Renly would have done had he won the battle (he wouldn't have but still). He is at best an attempted kinslayer.

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I was still abed when Renly died, and when I woke up, my hands were clean.

Stannis probably suspects what really happen and clearly feels guilty for it even though he didn't do anything active to kill Renly.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Just wonder why Robert didn't like Stannis, let's see, constatly sulking or complaining, humorless, can't stay close to a woman, does not drink, is a huge hypocrite, self centered, self righetous, ungrateful (Robert was under no obligation to give him nothing and could keep SE and DS as GRRM said himself)... seems like a nice fella to spend time around.

So let's fuck his new wife's cousin on his marriage bed. If that isn't humiliating, I don't know what is. Plus I don't think Stannis would have raised any objections if Robert kept SE and DS for himself, but granting him Dragonstone, after holding out for a year refusing to surrender all that time, then building a fleet form scratch and then performing an amphibious landing with it (probably the hardest military action), after all of that he gave Storm's End to a toddler. While sending Stannis to a desolate shitty island. I can see why Stannis was pissed. And on how he seems like a nice fellow to sit around I'd like to point out that that is probably what other nobles with their flattery and their hypocrisy think. Stannis's lower subjects, especially his soldiers seem to worship him.

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10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really. He learns he needs to earn it yes, but he always views the Throne as a means to bring justice and the rule of law.


:bs: Stannis wanted the throne because it was his, as simple as that. He is the most entitled of them all. One of the reasons i don't like Stannis is his complete inabiility to come clean and express freely what he wants...  even if what he wants is clear as a summer day, an ability that at least his brothers had, Stannis will ever ever say clearly what he wants, that would make him as bad as mortal men, he has to retort to duty, law  blah blah blah.

 

“Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately.“Why would you want it, then?” Davos asked him. “It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting.

 

This is one of his most embarassing moments ever imo. The only one who desperately wants that throne it's him yet he's the only one who can't say it out loud, no. The throne is his that is the law, can't really take him seriously when he's that entitled and the full of denial. Thanks god that he starts getting better in ADWD, his eternal Robert complex it's something that unfortunately seems to not leaving him  but... baby steps.

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

We don't know that for sure. Imry (I think, not sure how it's written) may have been a competent commander for all we know, he just got a bit rushed for time due to the delays and was probably too over confident to scout ahead.

Even Davos understands he's a fuck up, Stannis only appoints his wife's relatives, those who betrayed him for Renly, just for pure nepotism. If you don't send scouts in your first battle, there isn't much to talk about, the guy was bad.

At  least Davos, as much as people like to bitch about that appointment in the forum, is up to the task. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He cut down godswoods and burned septs when the vast majority of his army followed R'hllor. And yes he was about to burn Edric Storm, but think about it. Up to that point Mel had done everything she had promised, including the trick with the leeches (it doesn't matter that she probably wasn't involved and the cogs had started moving for a long time, something Mel probably saw in her flames but kept secret to perform the leech trick). As for motivation and who is the tool well...

I thought about it, Stannis loses men far and wide precisely for allowing Meli to run amok, in fact he has lost Westeros forever for that. And no, burning Edric is zealotry, just pure zealotry.

A man who is supposed to rule above 4 different religions can't allow the burning of septs and godswoods. Aegon understood it, Robert understood it , hell even the Hoares understood that, why Stannis can't understand that you don't mess with people's religions??

I know what Stannis tells to himself, his actions speak louder than his words however.

 

 

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Alright. There is no evidence that Stannis did anything to kill Renly besides fuck Mel. Mel even says so, under Storm's End with Davos. She did that of her own volition. Plus even if he killed Renly, what do you think Renly would have done had he won the battle (he wouldn't have but still). He is at best an attempted kinslayer.

He killed him, that's fine because as you say it was either him or Renly. He killed him regardless.

 

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Plus I don't think Stannis would have raised any objections if Robert kept SE and DS for himself, but granting him Dragonstone, after holding out for a year refusing to surrender all that time, then building a fleet form scratch and then performing an amphibious landing with it (probably the hardest military action), after all of that he gave Storm's End to a toddler. While sending Stannis to a desolate shitty island. I can see why Stannis was pissed. And on how he seems like a nice fellow to sit around I'd like to point out that that is probably what other nobles with their flattery and their hypocrisy think. Stannis's lower subjects, especially his soldiers seem to worship him.

He needed someone in Dragonstone, Renly needed his own keep. Whether he's a nice fellow or not, i don't really care about it, not that relevant imo.

 

“Robert did you an injustice,” Maester Cressen replied carefully, “yet he had sound reasons. Dragonstone had long been the seat of House Targaryen. He needed a man’s strength to rule here, and Renly was but a child.”

 

If people can understand why Robert needed and gave Stannis Dragonstone... why does he keep whining?? The man is so pathetic when he start talking about Storm¡s End...even before i read the Martin quote i was done with that. Overall, not talking about respect here, Stannis is a great character but him abandoning his brothers to their mercy, his incessant whinings about Storm's End and him still being so hung up on Robert, you are more than 30 for the love of God, are things that will always annoy me about him. The Ned seems to have worshipped Brandon, maybe as much as Stannis did with Robert, he's not as annoying as Stannis and he actually knows how to move on... Perhaps Ned should've had a talk with him in Dragonstone... but then again Stannis was incredibly jealous of Ned, so i doubt he'd ever listen to him.

If there is something i have to credit Stannis for however is that he doesn't have that creepy obsesionn his brothers had with fucking 14 years old at the very best. 

Edited by frenin

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:
3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Alright. There is no evidence that Stannis did anything to kill Renly besides fuck Mel. Mel even says so, under Storm's End with Davos. She did that of her own volition. Plus even if he killed Renly, what do you think Renly would have done had he won the battle (he wouldn't have but still). He is at best an attempted kinslayer.

He killed him, that's fine because as you say it was either him or Renly. He killed him regardless.

How do you think he killed him? You did nothing to respond to what I said. Yeah he fucked Mel, which produced the shadow baby, probably without him knowing what was happening. Mel did the actual thing, without orders from Stannis. She said so herself. Stannis didn't give the order, nor was he aware of Mel's plans, so please explain to me how you think he killed Renly?

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On 2/27/2020 at 12:40 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How do you think he killed him? You did nothing to respond to what I said. Yeah he fucked Mel, which produced the shadow baby, probably without him knowing what was happening. Mel did the actual thing, without orders from Stannis. She said so herself. Stannis didn't give the order, nor was he aware of Mel's plans, so please explain to me how you think he killed Renly?

Mel lies about Renly, lies about Cressen, but somehow she's telling the truth about Stannis, not that she ever exonerates him, she just says that she did not need to get close to him.

Stannis knew what Meli was doing, just as he knew that Meli was about to kill Cressen. About how do i think he killed Renly??

 

 “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands.I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.” Ser Davos Seaworth could feel his phantom fingertips start to itch. Something is wrong here, the one-time smuggler thought. Yet he nodded and said, “I see.”

 

Stannis was the shadow that killed Renly, that is why he dreams so vividly of a place he never wasin and a woman's scream he never got to hear, that's s why while Renly was dying he could not be awoken and that's why he repeats that his hands were clean, because he knows they are not. Stannis killed Renly as he killed Penrose.

Even Davos notices that something is amiss there and is scare as shit about how Meli has changed Stannis. Ofc Stannis doesn't want the truth, he wants everything but that and Mel is both protecting herself, because Stannis would have to kill her if he ever had to to face the truth, and Stannis himself.

Edited by frenin

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7 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

 My impression of Renly is that he  thinks he’s funny and would laugh at his own jokes.  Give me deadpan any day- Stannis or even Dolorous Ed.  

Meh, Renly seems hilarious, the bit about how Robert reacted when Stannis proposed to outlaw prostitution is just cracking.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Meh, Renly seems hilarious, the bit about how Robert reacted when Stannis proposed to outlaw prostitution is just cracking.

Also this:

Quote

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey's sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes."

Lord Renly stifled his laughter. "My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself." He bowed to Joffrey. "Perchance later you'll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river." As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, "Lion's Tooth," and guffaw once more.

-A Game Of Thrones, Arya III

Also Cortnay Penrose is just awesome (much more than smelly onion man Davos or Melly Sanders).


“May the Others bugger your Lord of Light,” Penrose spat back, “and whipe his arse with that rag you bear.”

Morrigen bristled. “Be glad this is a parley, Penrose, or I would have your tongue for those words.”

“And cast it in the same fire where you left your manhood?”

                                          -----

He pulled off his glove and flung it full in the king’s face. “Single combat. Sword, lance, or any weapon you care to name. Or if you fear to hazard your magic sword and royal skin against an old man, name yourr champion, and I shall do the same.” He gave Guyard Morrigen and Bryce Caron a scathing look. “Either of these pups would do nicely, I should think.”

                                          -----

The king ground his teeth. “No.” Ser Cortnay did not seem surprised. “Is it the justice of your cause that you doubt, my lord, or the strength of your arm? Are you afraid I’ll piss on your burning sword and put it out?”

                                          -----

The king pointed a finger at him. “I give you fair warning. If you force me to take my castle by storm, you may expect no mercy. I will hang you for traitors, everyone of you.”

“As the gods will it. Bring your storm, my lord - and recall, if you do, the name of this castle.”  Ser Cortnay gave a pull on his reins and rode back toward the gate.

:bowdown:

Edited by Peach King

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13 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Also Cortnay Penrose is just awesome (much more than Davos or Melly Sanders).
 

That's treason, don't say treasonous words to me Ser.

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

just as he knew that Meli was about to kill Cressen.

Have we read the same book. Stannis loved the old man, and wanted to keep him safe at all times. Also Saying that Mel killed him is a bit of stretch given that he willingly drank his own poison.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

 “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.” Ser Davos Seaworth could feel his phantom fingertips start to itch. Something is wrong here, the one-time smuggler thought. Yet he nodded and said, “I see.”

 

Stannis was the shadow that killed Renly, that is why he dreams so vividly of a place he never wasin and a woman's scream he never got to hear, that's s why while Renly was dying he could not be awoken and that's why he repeats that his hands were clean, because he knows they are not. Stannis killed Renly as he killed Penrose.

Even Davos notices that something is amiss there and is scare as shit about how Meli has changed Stannis. Ofc Stannis doesn't want the truth, he wants everything but that and Mel is both protecting her, because Stannis would have to kill her if he ever had to to face the truth, and Stannis himself.

Now obviously there is the weir shadow baby magic here. It's also clear as you say that Stannis in his sleep saw the murder take place, and that's why he couldn't be woken up. However I don't think he willingly navigated the shadow baby to do the thing. It was more probably under Mel's control (for Pete's sake she's the witch and the one with the supernatural powers). The only way Stannis was involved in the whole endeavor was in ,,fathering" the shadow baby, he didn't play an active part in the deed, though as you say he probably did witness the whole thing through the shadow baby's POV. Mel was the one controlling the shadow, and as such she is the one that killed Stannis. Stannis neither did the thing nor gave the order, so I can't see how he could be considered a murderer.

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