Brandon Ice-Eyes Posted April 5, 2020 Author Share Posted April 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Ygrain said: That's not what a Mary Sue is, but I get your point - it is a bit of a cliché. Only, the single difference between a cliché and a hero archetype is the quality of writing. I fully trust that GRRM is able to pull it in a satisfactory way. Besides, the fact that Jon is set up like that doesn't mean there cannot be a clever deconstruction of the usual hero trope. Yeah that’s what I’m hoping. I agree it makes way too much sense for it not be R + L = J but it also feels like there’s a twist that George is hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said: Yeah that’s what I’m hoping. I agree it makes way too much sense for it not be R + L = J but it also feels like there’s a twist that George is hiding. No matter how much I hate season 8 of the abomination, I think that Jon banished in disgrace is a plausible scenario,which normally really doesn't happen to the hidden princes. Only, I don't think that his top achievement would be yelling at a zombie dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lehutin Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 R+L=J is like a skeleton key that unlocks multiple doors beyond "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" For example, it can also standalone answer Why can't Ned just tell Jon (or Catelyn) who his mother is? Because revealing that Jon is a surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen puts the lives of Ned's entire family at risk. Why doesn't Ned name Jon alongside Robb and the rest when Cersei asks him whether he loves his children? Because Jon isn't one of his children. N+A=J isn't a standalone theory. It can't answer these questions without resorting to different keys (i.e., different theories): Why can't Ned just tell Jon (or Catelyn) who his mother is? Uh, because Ned and Ashara were married! Why doesn't Ned name Jon alongside Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when Cersei asks him whether he loves his children? *crickets* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Anna Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 R + L = J It's supported by the text, it makes sense, it's narratively satisfying, it just fits. Regarding whether it's too obvious or not, that depends on the reader, but we haven't yet seen the ramifications of it, or what it will mean specifically for Jon's story - this part certainly isn't obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbergkvist Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 My theory: it's L + A = J: In the story, we have two related cases of the readers being led to ask questions that seemingly only have two possible answers: 1. Barristan thought to himself that "Ashara turned to Stark", leading us the readers to wonder "So which Stark, Brandon or Ned?" 2. Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon thought that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but Dany thinks she went willingly. So again, we as readers are led to ask "So did he kidnap her, or did she go willingly?" It seems to me that it would be perfectly fitting with George's writing style, if the answer to both these questions is a third option: 1. Ashara didn't turn to either Brandon or Ned; she turned to Lyanna, and 2. Lyanna was neither kidnapped by nor went willingly with Rhaegar; she went with Ashara. It would also fit with the general theme of the story that the characters cannot understand what was going on, because they don't think outside the gender box. Of course, unless there is some magic involved, Ashara is unlikely to be Jon's biological parent. So Rhaegar may well be Jon's biological father, after all. Or it could be Arther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackDragonWillReturn Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Definitely, R+L=J after reading the last few books. At first I always thought Ned and Ashara Dayne could've done it or something and after seeing that they kinda had a relationship going it was plausable but Rhaegar and Lyanna makes more sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Darkbrother Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Im thinking Ashara is both Danys older sister and mother. Aerys raped his daughter. Lyanna was also a bastard of Aerys and thats where Jon gets his connection to the mad king, not through his father Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back in Black-Snow Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Aemon Darkbrother said: Im thinking Ashara is both Danys older sister and mother. Aerys raped his daughter. Lyanna was also a bastard of Aerys and thats where Jon gets his connection to the mad king, not through his father Rhaegar. Do-ooo WHAT!? I think I've heard it all now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Darkbrother Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Travis said: Do-ooo WHAT!? I think I've heard it all now. The Seed is.....everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 R+L=J for all the many, many reasons that have been gone over for the many years since this series started. I will say one thing is support of N+A=J. Martin has made it a point to leave Ashara's whereabouts unknown for long periods of time. He has also famously noted that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Dorne, and they do have horses and a few boats in Dorne as well. Which tells me we may have a revelation in the next book to keep this variation alive. I wouldn't be surprised to learn for instance that Ned and Ashara meet some time during the war. I'd dearly love to find out that when Dany lands in Westeros it is in Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Anna Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 R+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormourne Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Dude. R + L = J has already been confirmed. Remember that the only reason D&D got the okay to film Game of Thrones was because they correctly guessed who Jon Snow's parents were, and to George himself. And since R+L=J was confirmed in the show, it's also confirmed in the novels. I just hope the books end differently. Jon Snow deserves so much more than 'banishment' for saving the fucking realm from a mad queen. And the idea that the Targaryen House will just end up extinct makes me sad. I mean, real life houses and royal families also died out, but we need not go down that route. If Bran Stark does end up as king of the (enter number) kingdoms, when he dies, Westeros will turn into what the Roman Empire/Republic was. Rich families buying their way into power and murdering their enemies to keep it. As the Romans did before any sort of election, throw massive feasts for the smallfolk (or whoever had the right to vote) and buy their support through money and food. And the assassinations... Lord of Light! if any lord has a chance at being king, you best believe some will resort to murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Stormourne said: Remember that the only reason D&D got the okay to film Game of Thrones was because they correctly guessed who Jon Snow's parents were, That's actually not true. GRRM only asked them who they thought Jon's mother was (and seemed pleased by their answer). He never asked them who they thought Jon's father was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: That's actually not true. GRRM only asked them who they thought Jon's mother was (and seemed pleased by their answer). He never asked them who they thought Jon's father was. He might have been just as pleased if they got it wrong. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lehutin Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: That's actually not true. GRRM only asked them who they thought Jon's mother was (and seemed pleased by their answer). He never asked them who they thought Jon's father was. If we want to be as accurate as possible, GRRM didn't ask them who they thought Jon's mother was. That type of question implies that he just wanted to see if they had read any part of the books and would have accepted multiple answers. He asked them, "who is Jon Snow's mother?" There's only one right answer to that, and GRRM has said multiple times that D&D gave him the right answer. If one accepts that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother, really, the only candidate for Jon Snow's father that makes any sense is Rhaegar Targaryen. Arthur + Lyanna = Jon is a soap opera-level "theory," and Starkcest is a porn-level "theory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Starting around 1:58 GRRM: "Who was Jon Snow's mother?" Weiss: Our answer was right. Then Kimmel gets further confirmation that the mother is the same in the show and the books. Therefore, Lyanna is confirmed. Deniers can still make all kinds of useless theories about the father, but not the mother. Or they could simply do something useful with their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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