Westeros has no Magna Carta- what is GRRM writing?

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

GRRM has given the example of Carter’s presidency to illustrate how a good man does not always make a good ruler/ leader. I agree with this remark/ view of his. However, I’m not so sure the reverse — a bad person can make a good ruler — is necessarily true. I don’t think that GRRM is making that argument. Some level of morality, compassion, and self-awareness is essential for a good ruler. And yes, when people begin excusing amoral leaders and deviants to serve their own limited ends, that’s when societies end up with dictators and madmen as leaders.

I thought he was making this argument with Nixon with him opening up China and created the EPA while also being a moral train wreck. And this might come across in characters like Jaehaerys, Randyll Tarly, Stannis, and Tyrion. He seems to be saying that these men can be awful to people in their personal lives while making some good decisions politically. He seems to separate morality from intelligence. Tyrion is smart, therefore he is a good politician (his words to a fan). But, Trump is a smart politician too. Okay, but maybe Tyrion has empathy and Trump does not. But then, Tyrion's empathy certainly seems selective and can be withdrawn on his whims. It might be different if he has Tyrion atone (i.e. do his time in prison) for Shae and the Pentoshi whore. But if he gets off scott free and gets rewarded with a political position again, it's like...okay this is sounding like the guy Americans have in the White House right now. Where people in power don't have to face consequences and nothing they say/do matters because they are effectively "smart politicians".  

Perhaps I just don't find GRRM's great man view of history very useful or compelling. Not everyone wants or has to view history from that framework. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree. If anything thats rewriting history. Wilson was a racist, back then too.

This buisness of erecting statues for Wilson if only congress approved the League of Nations doesn't even make sense. I always thought these types of statues, your jebediah springfields, is just ancestry worship that with enough research is bound to turn bad. 

I mean, I like the statues of George Washington. The man who owned hundreds of slaves and was the founder of Americas liberty and freedom. The two are not mutually exclusive

I didn’t say that Wilson was not a racist. He was a racist in his time and he still is one now. Nothing he did or may have done would change that fact. The building statues in Wilson’s memory is GRRM’s viewpoint, not mine. Now had Wilson achieved world peace and a world order where there were no wars and all nuclear weapons were eradicated and statues were build to honor this achievement of his, I would be against destroying those statues today because he was a racist. This is not to say that we should be insensitive to the needs of those that were victims of racial injustice but rather we should find a way we can address these atrocities of the past without completely negating the good. Woodrow Wilson is a bad example, a more appropriate example would be George Washington (as you pointed) or Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was a flawed man but also a creature of his times. His act of owning slaves does not cancel his intellect and contribution to the establishment of liberal democracies. Neither does the good he did for humanity negate the terrible act of him owning slaves.

My argument in stating that historical characters should not be broadly painted based on some future code or definition of morality is because I feel how societies judge morality is constantly evolving. People who are historically viewed positively for their contributions to humanity should not be cancelled/ eradicated from history in order to serve the needs of present society. Political correctness is well and good but we should not rewrite history in the pursuit of it. We can bring to the attention of current and future generations that Jefferson’s act of owning slaves was wrong but still acknowledge his contributions to mankind. Instead what we see more and more now is an attempt to paint historical characters with a broad brush, not taking into account the times/ societies they lived in or their life as a whole. As I said, history should be objective and not be a commentary on good and evil. No one disputes that Winston Churchill was a great statesman and leader but to millions of people in South Asia, the man was a racist and everything else he did does not matter. Or Gandhi for example, his statue was recently removed from a university campus in Ghana. Can we now erase all the good Gandhi did because he may have had racist views? To me, this is a very slippery slope.

ETA: Sorry for digressing from the OP’s topic. 

[Hugorfonics]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

He killed a deserter of the Night's Watch, a criminal and outlaw who by the laws of the realm was condemned to death.

Ned used to be a criminal and outlaw who by the laws of the realm was condemned to death.

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

I can think of way more brutal ways to die than a clean beheading.

Its barbaric

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was questioned and was an incoherent mad man by this point. Westeros doesn't really think madness goes away.

I don't really care what Westeros thinks. They also think if you pay a whore it cant be rape.

[Hugorfonics]

51 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I didn’t say that Wilson was not a racist. He was a racist in his time and he still is one now. Nothing he did or may have done would change that fact. The building statues in Wilson’s memory is GRRM’s viewpoint, not mine. Now had Wilson achieved world peace and a world order where there were no wars and all nuclear weapons were eradicated and statues were build to honor this achievement of his, I would be against destroying those statues today because he was a racist. This is not to say that we should be insensitive to the needs of those that were victims of racial injustice but rather we should find a way we can address these atrocities of the past without completely negating the good. Woodrow Wilson is a bad example, a more appropriate example would be George Washington (as you pointed) or Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was a flawed man but also a creature of his times. His act of owning slaves does not cancel his intellect and contribution to the establishment of liberal democracies. Neither does the good he did for humanity negate the terrible act of him owning slaves.

My argument in stating that historical characters should not be broadly painted based on some future code or definition of morality is because I feel how societies judge morality is constantly evolving. People who are historically viewed positively for their contributions to humanity should not be cancelled/ eradicated from history in order to serve the needs of present society. Political correctness is well and good but we should not rewrite history in the pursuit of it. We can bring to the attention of current and future generations that Jefferson’s act of owning slaves was wrong but still acknowledge his contributions to mankind. Instead what we see more and more now is an attempt to paint historical characters with a broad brush, not taking into account the times/ societies they lived in or their life as a whole. As I said, history should be objective and not be a commentary on good and evil. No one disputes that Winston Churchill was a great statesman and leader but to millions of people in South Asia, the man was a racist and everything else he did does not matter. Or Gandhi for example, his statue was recently removed from a university campus in Ghana. Can we now erase all the good Gandhi did because he may have had racist views? To me, this is a very slippery slope.

ETA: Sorry for digressing from the OP’s topic. 

Whats interesting too is these statues, or Confederate statutes to be specific, are now kinda historical in their own part. The statue not the person.

I agree its a slippery slope. However to excuse Jefferson not freeing his kids (or all those other people he owned) is to excuse something abhorrent. And yes, back then it was expected of a Virginian who has yet to fall into debt to own slaves however we know that he had conflicting views on the matter like we know many of his peers did in the continental congress.( I mean the man wrote its evident all men are free, like what lol?)

Anyway , what im trying to say, which i think yould agree with, is people be people. From the historical and well documented Jefferson to the make belive like Tyrion, or a mix like Jebediah Springfield, we should judge the characters for the wrongs theyve committed while simultaneously learning their heroic teachings and moral deeds

[Loose Bolt]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its barbaric

Beheading with a sword was much quicker and less painful way to die than what happened to those peasants who had done something like being leaders of failed peasant rebellion. Or if the government really wanted to make someone an example those persons could become main "stars" of public torture that could last hours. 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 9. April 2020 at 7:22 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of religion in the books (to connect the clergy were amongst those with the Magna Carta): is it just me, or GRRM hasn’t done much to develop the Faith of the Seven? The Faith of the Seven is the dominant religion in Westeros apart from the North and the Iron Islands, but only two Southern characters (Catelyn and Davos) seem pious of those who follow the Seven. Other POV characters who live in the South have a more agnostic approach, with Littlefinger getting a special mention of referring to religion as “pious bleating”. Medieval society had pious people from top to bottom (hence the Crusades), how could you build on such a quicksand?

Also: are there any regional differences between how different kingdoms practice their faith, ie does the Vale practice their faith differently from the Reach?

I agree. Especially because in the MA the right to rule was derived from God.

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I thought he was making this argument with Nixon with him opening up China and created the EPA while also being a moral train wreck. And this might come across in characters like Jaehaerys, Randyll Tarly, Stannis, and Tyrion. He seems to be saying that these men can be awful to people in their personal lives while making some good decisions politically. He seems to separate morality from intelligence. Tyrion is smart, therefore he is a good politician (his words to a fan). But, Trump is a smart politician too. Okay, but maybe Tyrion has empathy and Trump does not. But then, Tyrion's empathy certainly seems selective and can be withdrawn on his whims. It might be different if he has Tyrion atone (i.e. do his time in prison) for Shae and the Pentoshi whore. But if he gets off scott free and gets rewarded with a political position again, it's like...okay this is sounding like the guy Americans have in the White House right now. Where people in power don't have to face consequences and nothing they say/do matters because they are effectively "smart politicians".  

Perhaps I just don't find GRRM's great man view of history very useful or compelling. Not everyone wants or has to view history from that framework. 

Tyrion was shackled up more then Hannibal Lector directly after the Pentoshi whore, he then gets sold into slavery.

The memories of Shae and Tysha still haunt him.

Tyrion did not get off scott free. Wait for winds

And I wouldn't call Trump a smart politician. Wait for November lol

4 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Beheading with a sword was much quicker and less painful way to die than what happened to those peasants who had done something like being leaders of failed peasant rebellion. Or if the government really wanted to make someone an example those persons could become main "stars" of public torture that could last hours. 

Yes, let's come up with more ways Ned could have killed that poor man. Is flaying still on the table? 

Quote

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

How nice!

[Loose Bolt]

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, let's come up with more ways Ned could have killed that poor man. Is flaying still on the table? 

In many countries only nobles were executed with a sword. So Ned really gave that deserter noble death.

[Mithras]

According to GRRM, the ideal ruler is the one with the BeSt sTorY EvEr!

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The problem in Westeros is not the ruling family.  It's the lords paramount and those below them.  The closest thing to progress for the benefit of the many came about because of Queen Allysanne Targaryen the Good.  She forced the lords paramount to ban the lord's right to bang newly married women.  It's been said many times on this forum and I shall repeat it, the Targaryen family was a blessing to the people of Westeros. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

In many countries only nobles were executed with a sword. So Ned really gave that deserter noble death.

How lucky for him. (Its not even like Ned legally had to kill him, there precedent for not. We see this with Jon Snow and Mance Rayder

Quote

If we beheaded every boy who rode to Mole's Town in the night, only ghosts would guard the Wall.

 )

Look im not saying Eddards a bad guy, im just saying the vengeance based revolutionary who placed a drunk tyrant on the throne, who puts fear into his wife, incarcerates his nephew, gives his daughter to Joffrey and executes a pitiful man in chapter 1 aint a good guy.

Hes a guy, mixed. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Tyrion did not get off scott free. Wait for winds

Wait for him to do ...what. Ride a dragon? Be Dany's hand? Get his freedom back? Slap Penny around again? Can't wait.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion was shackled up more then Hannibal Lector directly after the Pentoshi whore, he then gets sold into slavery.

The memories of Shae and Tysha still haunt him.

To him, Shae is "that lying cunt" and Tysha is the "only woman who ever loved him" because he can't fathom that whores might have feelings. Which explains why he rapes one. 

Tyrion doesn't care about these women. He doesn't care about Shae or Tysha. He just wants validation. That is not atonement. Being sold into slavery was too too good for him. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And I wouldn't call Trump a smart politician. Wait for November lol

He was smart enough to know that ethnonationalism and nostalgia for a fictional empire would get him elected, and it did. He'll probably get elected again. 

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 Slap Penny around again? Can't wait.

Lmao

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion doesn't care about these women. He doesn't care about Shae or Tysha. He just wants validation. That is not atonement. Being sold into slavery was too too good for him. 

Ok so, pretty grimey lol, no one deserves to be sold into slavery. I think thats pretty self explanatory. And Tyrion does care about these women and their pain

Quote

His wrist was throbbing where he'd torn the skin, and his fetters made it impossible for him to sit, let alone stretch out. The best he could do was twist sideways to lean against the wall, and before long he began to lose all feeling in his hands. When he moved to relieve the strain, sensation came flooding back as pain. He had to grind his teeth to keep from screaming. He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her. His sufferings were nothing compared to their own, but that did not make him hurt any less.

Like, what atonement do you want from him? To stab his fingers every day? Slice off his nose?

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He was smart enough to know that ethnonationalism and nostalgia for a fictional empire would get him elected, and it did.

He got lucky. Its basically a coin flip anyway, people generally always vote their party.

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He'll probably get elected again. 

We'll probably never have an election again

[Nagini's Neville]

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Slice off his nose?

What nose? lol

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sure. But this argument doesn't work very well in the era we're living in now. Let alone the fact that some groups interpret "good" and "bad" very differently.  

Nothing has changed the fact that history is full of good people who weren't good rulers, and bad people who were. What America has now is a bad person who is also a bad ruler.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Like, what atonement do you want from him? To stab his fingers every day? Slice off his nose?

 

Perhaps slice off another part of his anatomy.

[SeanF]

WRT rulers, the best rulers strike a balance, I think.  There's a time to be cruel, and a time to be merciful.  There's a time for peace and a time for war.  There's a time to be Mhysa, and a time to be dragon.  There's a time to be Maegor, and a time to be Aenys.

[Wall Flower]

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nothing has changed the fact that history is full of good people who weren't good rulers, and bad people who were. What America has now is a bad person who is also a bad ruler.

Trump's Cersei but with the advantages of being a man and being able to get away with a lot more. Martin was pretty good at predicting what happens when you give power to a yellow haired narcissist with daddy issues.

[The Fattest Leech]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

21 hours ago, teej6 said:

That being said, I am also against rewriting history based on modern day perceptions of morality. Most good historians view a character/ event based on the age he/she lives in.

I disagree. If anything thats rewriting history. Wilson was a racist, back then too.

This buisness of erecting statues for Wilson if only congress approved the League of Nations doesn't even make sense. I always thought these types of statues, your jebediah springfields, is just ancestry worship that with enough research is bound to turn bad. 

I mean, I like the statues of George Washington. The man who owned hundreds of slaves and was the founder of Americas liberty and freedom. The two are not mutually exclusive

Aah, this is a lot of what I was wanted to discuss, how should we judge the characters in this story- by their setting or ours? And do we think that is what GRRM had in mind. Which way does the info flow?

It's interesting that statues are mentioned. GRRM has recently spoken about removing statues around the US is a form of erasing history (I will find the quote/interview soon). And he has a few statues in ASOIAF that, to me, signify this same type of problematic display of "power"; the statue in Illyrio's gardens, the statue at Deep Lake, and Daeron I.

 

In general, thanks to everyone who is adding here. I appreciate it.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Trump's Cersei but with the advantages of being a man and being able to get away with a lot more. Martin was pretty good at predicting what happens when you give power to a yellow haired narcissist with daddy issues.

That's true but you might want to use a skosh bit of caution when you compare Cersei to Trump because GRRM said he wrote Dany and Cersei as ruling parallels, so...

However, Trump has compared Joffrey to Trump (or vice versa)

ADDING: Martin: Well, that’s amusing. But I think even during the campaign I said that Trump reminded me most of Joffrey. They have the same level of emotional maturity. And Joffrey likes to remind everyone that he’s king. And he thinks that gives him the ability to do anything. And we’re not an absolute monarchy, like Westeros is. We’re a constitutional republic. And yet, Trump doesn’t seem to know what that means. He thinks the presidency gives him the power to do anything. And so, yeah, Joffrey is Trump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/t-magazine/george-rr-martin-qanda-game-of-thrones.html