Rothfuss XVI: Books? What books?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I don't think the Kellhus analogy quite works: Kellhus is clearly dodgy AF to start with, but he's presented as being "better than the alternative," which is more or less true. Cnaiur it might be more true of.

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Excepting the last 5 seconds of the last book, and even that's hugely debatable.

Malazan does have it: Felisin is a major protagonist in Book 2 and apparently a "hero" (ish) albeit a hugely damaged one, and is then in a more antagonistic role in Book 4.

Abercrombie might apply: 

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Logan is a hero who has an evil alter-ego whom he can't control, like the Hulk! Nope, he's just full of shit and the Bloody Nine is a symptom of his madness and rage which is still part of him, so by the end of the trilogy he's presented in a much less flattering light. Of course, Red Country then revisits that a little.

Glokta is presented as a hero in the first trilogy but ends the series in a more villainous mode, and that continues through the stand-alones and into the sequel trilogy, which he's definitely more of a bad guy. Both these cases are difficult to judge fully, though, as they're small fry compared to Bayaz. Ah, Bayaz might count: introduced as the wise, Gandalf-style mentor character and then you find out he's more like the Emperor from Star Wars at the end of the trilogy (well, maybe not quite, but closer to that then Gandalf, anyway).

The Star Wars prequel trilogy, if you're coming to it completely fresh, is probably the best example (but it then gets undone in the second/original trilogy, so meh).

The reverse is more often true: Jorg in the Broken Empire trilogy is presented as an antagonist that we just happen to be sitting in on the POV of, and then metamorphoses into a (somewhat) more positive role as the story continues. Very relative though.

Clearly, I'm missing stuff then. 

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Until we have Day 3, this is all speculation in any event.

Without speculation this board would cease to exist.  I joined 12 years ago because some idiot was propounding the asinine theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's parents when it was obvious misdirection and his real mother was Wylla.  

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What other popular fantasy works have we had the “bad guy’s” story told as a “hero’s journey” where we were not aware the story we were reading was of the “bad guy’s” journey?

Sorry, I'm a total idiot. Dune, obviously.

[Rhom]

5 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Sorry, I'm a total idiot. Dune, obviously.

I’m not sure that all of the discussion is coming from the same place.  

Dune is the story of how a hero became a villain.  Star Wars is the same.

I think Scot is arguing that Kvothe is the villain but we are being told the story from his perspective and he never was the hero.

I don’t remember enough of the details, but I feel like Brian Ruckley’s Godless World had another great story of the villain’s story.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

31 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Sorry, I'm a total idiot. Dune, obviously.

Paul Muad'dib is the antagonist?  If he's the antagonist who is the protagonist for Dune?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

26 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I’m not sure that all of the discussion is coming from the same place.  

Dune is the story of how a hero became a villain.  Star Wars is the same.

I think Scot is arguing that Kvothe is the villain but we are being told the story from his perspective and he never was the hero.

I don’t remember enough of the details, but I feel like Brian Ruckley’s Godless World had another great story of the villain’s story.

Ruckley's Godless World doesn't pretend like the person who becomes the "villain" is ever the "hero".  I think Rothfuss wants the reader to see Kvothe as the "hero" because that's how Kvothe sees himself.  But, I don't think those on the outside will agree with Kvothe's self assessment.

 

[IlyaP]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Paul Muad'dib is the antagonist?  If he's the antagonist who is the protagonist for Dune?

The reader.

[Jace, Extat]

46 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I’m not sure that all of the discussion is coming from the same place.  

Dune is the story of how a hero became a villain.  Star Wars is the same.

I think Scot is arguing that Kvothe is the villain but we are being told the story from his perspective and he never was the hero.

I don’t remember enough of the details, but I feel like Brian Ruckley’s Godless World had another great story of the villain’s story.

Godless World, whatup!!! Kanin fangirl forever.

[lysmonger]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Okay, I think we are quibbling over whether what I think Rothfuss is attempting is “new”.  For sake of discussion I concede the point.  Not “new”.

Regardless of whether it is “new” or not I think that’s what he is attempting.  

I also think, even if not “new”, it is uncommon in modern fantasy English literature for the person set up for the reader as the presumed protagonist to end up at the end of the story to not be the protagonist at all, in fact to have been (to the surprise of the reader) the antagonist for a larger story.  I also think that is, again, why Rothfuss is nervous about releasing the last volumn.  I think he’s afraid this twist will piss off many of his “fans”.  

Until we have Day 3, this is all speculation in any event.

I revisited a theory I had a few years ago about Rothfuss. What if there was an already published series that resembles his work especially the chandrian. 

I am specifically thinking of the Berserk Manga. And just reading a little into the backstory, you can see why Rothfuss could be freaking out about that.

[Rhom]

I kinda look at the Chandrian like the Lost Radiants from Sanderson.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I kinda look at the Chandrian like the Lost Radiants from Sanderson.

I really dislike Sanderson.  

[Infidel]

5 hours ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

@Ser Scot A Ellison - “new” is in the eye of the beholder. I know a fairly famous novelist (very well-regarded writer for TV) who insists that GRRM has “re-defined epic fantasy”.

(IMO)

 

I don't know - what is it defined as?

[Proudfeet]

10 hours ago, Vaughn said:

What?

You floated that the only characters worse than him were maybe Ambrose and Bast. My post is in response to that specific hot take, not to specifically defending him as some excellent dude. Personally, I rank many people as worse (see above.) He seems to be average morally/ethically, neither good as Fela, Wilem, etc... nor as bad as various thugs, footpads, murderers, etc... More in the Devi range.

I'm not talking about morality. I'm talking about character. Specifically, him being a jackass. Surely after so many posts I don't have to put it in context every time? I've said in a very early post that I didn't think he was malicious.

And your list? Hemme and Cinder, maybe Carcaret. I don't remember her. If your theory about Bredon is Ash/Cinder, you're counting him twice even. 

Edit - I think we're talking about different things with "worse characters" but I'll leave it there in case that isn't the case.

[jurble]

3 hours ago, lysmonger said:

I revisited a theory I had a few years ago about Rothfuss. What if there was an already published series that resembles his work especially the chandrian. 

I am specifically thinking of the Berserk Manga. And just reading a little into the backstory, you can see why Rothfuss could be freaking out about that.

wait what

I really doubt Rothfuss cribbed Berserk.  I don't see any parallels at all.  The Godhand are presumably being equated to the Chandrian but the Godhand are literally angels, chosen by God, who just happens to be evil in the setting of Berserk.   

Kvothe does not have a metal hand and carry an enormous sword.  There's no equivalent to Griffith... Kvothe apparently fights an angel in context of saving Denna, but I seriously doubt Kvothe's best-friend turns into an evil angel and then proceeds to rape Denna.

[lysmonger]

Oh Jeez, "god as defined by the word evil" 

 

Think of the whole ancient tale of lanre of being this extremely great warrior that is soon then changed into a demonic entity.

Both Denna and Kvothe both seemed destined to destroy the world. And mysterious demons are constantly who hanging out around them, manipulating things and events to follow a set prophetic betrayal.

Kvothe goes social climbing. Does obscene amount of revenge. And ends up killing a king and creating a massive temporal break in the world, causing fantastic beats to come out in the real world. 

 

[lysmonger]

chandrian

Cinder

Cyphus
Stercus
Usnea
Dalcenti
Alenta

 

Godshand

Void

Slan

Ubik

Conrad 

Femto

the  names are even familiar

[Werthead]

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Paul Muad'dib is the antagonist?  If he's the antagonist who is the protagonist for Dune?

He is the villain: he kills way more people than the Harkonnens, the Emperor and the Sardaukaur combined. He then shrinks back from doing the things that "justify" all the mayhem, death and murder and recants it, and it falls to his son to follow through. Leto II can also be argued to be the villain - he himself sets himself up as a villain to engineer his own downfall - but he argues that without his actions the human race would have been rendered extinct. Paul does all that murder and insanity in which billions die, but then abruptly reverses course and tries to undo his actions, which presumably would have ended in the human race extinct anyway, so his actions are doubly pointless.

It should also be noted that you can be the protagonist and a villain or antihero simultaneously, with antagonists who try to stop you still being horrendous people. There are no real good guys in Dune (although Duncan Idaho kinda of tries).

[HexMachina]

16 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Okay, I think we are quibbling over whether what I think Rothfuss is attempting is “new”.  For sake of discussion I concede the point.  Not “new”.

Regardless of whether it is “new” or not I think that’s what he is attempting.  

I also think, even if not “new”, it is uncommon in modern fantasy English literature for the person set up for the reader as the presumed protagonist to end up at the end of the story to not be the protagonist at all, in fact to have been (to the surprise of the reader) the antagonist for a larger story.  I also think that is, again, why Rothfuss is nervous about releasing the last volumn.  I think he’s afraid this twist will piss off many of his “fans”.  

Until we have Day 3, this is all speculation in any event.

 After his many antics, you think Rothfuss cares about pissing off his fans?

[john]

I don’t think any of these examples are the same as what Scot is talking about. Zakalwe is known to be bad from the start, he just turns out to be worse than the reader was expecting. Paul Atreides might be the villain from some perspectives but he still has the hero journey.

Scot’s saying, I believe, that Kvothe is purporting to have the hero journey, but in fact isn’t. I don’t really agree with that necessarily, but there is something going on with Denna mirroring Kvothe, Lanre possibly being a good guy, possibly a bad guy. Personally I think Rothfuss is more interested in how legends change in the telling and it’s more likely that Kvothe is just a greyer protagonist than we might have initially thought.

[Proudfeet]

It could also be multiple sides acting on imperfect information / misinformation from the Chteah and believe themselves to be acting for the greater good and it snowballed from there. The difference in perspectives is really interesting.

We are also finally talking about the books and not the author. How long has it been since we last discussed the books? All it took was calling Kvothe a dick.