The Brotherhood Without Banners, Lady Stonehart, and Objectives

[Lady Rhodes]

 

I saw a passing reference to them in another post, and it made me read a little bit more about them.  It appears that post-Stoneheart, the group has splintered or only appears to have splintered and are out on official brotherhood business. I would like to open it up to discussion!  This is especially important since GRRM has noted that LS plays a large role in the Winds of Winter.

From the wiki:

Known members

Currently

• Lady Stoneheart, also known as "the Hangwoman", "the Silent Sister" and "Mother Merciless".

• Lem Lemoncloak

• Thoros of Myr

• Harwin

• Jack-Be-Lucky

• Tom of Sevenstreams, currently in Riverrun as a musician in Lord Emmon Frey's household

• Ser Gendry of the hollow hill

• Notch

• Likely Luke

• Mudge

• Beardless Dick

• Dennett

Formerly

• Lord {Beric Dondarrion}, called "the Lightning Lord", was killed multiple times throughout the war but was resurrected each time by Thoros of Myr. He was the original leader of the brotherhood until he gave up his life for Catelyn Stark.

• Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall and House Dayne in Dorne, this twelve-year old served as Beric's squire. Whereabouts is currently unknown.

• The Mad Huntsman, searching south of the Mander for food.

• Pello, called Greenbeard, searching south of the Mander for food.

• Anguy, called Anguy the Archer, a skilled young bowman from the Dornish Marches who won the archery competition at the Eddard Stark's elevation to Hand of the King Tourney. Whereabouts are currently unknown.

• Merrit O'Moontown, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• Watty the Miller, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• Swampy Meg, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• Jon O'Nutten, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• Melly, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• Puddingfoot, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

• {Kyle}, killed in the battle at the burning septry.

• {Alyn of Winterfell} rallied the survivors of the battle at the Mummer's Ford and died sometime after.

Allies and Sympathizers

• Sharna, Husband, Boy, and Hot Pie at the Inn of the Kneeling Man

• Tansy, Bella and the "peaches" at Stoney Sept

• Lady Ravella Swann at Acorn Hall

• Lord Lymond Lychester and Maester Roone

• The ghost of High Heart

• The Lady of the Leaves

• The septon at Sallydance

• Jeyne and Willow Heddle and the orphans at the Crossroads Inn.

I thought just copying that above would provide an easy reference.  Some key points that I note:

1. We hear a lot about how Beric continued to lose himself as he resurrected.  Catelyn seems to have gone a lot farther after only one resurrection, thus I am assuming the extent of the decay, in addition to the duration of the death and the frequency of resurrections is correlated to the decay of the mind/spirit/soul/essence of the person.  This is an important point if we think about others being resurrected going forward.

2. Going with point #1, what does resurrection actually do to a person? I have posited in the past that death sharpens the key motivations of a character. Beric seems to be laser focused on the smallfolk and Gregor Clegane.  Lady Stonehart certainly has revenge on her mind, but is that just an example carrying out her key motivations?  During her Catelyn days, she ruminates frequently on the Tully words of Family, Duty, Honor.  If we are to extrapolate that and place it in the Lady Stonehart framework, I think “Arya’s” marriage, Ned’s bones, Robb’s crown and will start to become a lot more pivotal than simply she is revenging the Red Wedding…she is after revenge for everything, her whole family.

3. If Lady Stonehart is keen on revenge, it would seem that the Boltons would be of equal target to Freys.  However, the Ironborn are a problem as well - and she thinks that they killed Bran and Rickon.  I think because of the POVs we have, we are only aware of her targeting the Freys because they are the ones based in the Riverlands.  Thus, if she is their now de facto leader and her intrinsic motivator is revenge for her family and not just the Red Wedding, I would expect the group to be broken into three missions: Revenge against the Freys, Revenge against the Boltons, and Revenge against the Ironborn.  If we accept this as true, then I would say some of our missing folks are likely with the Boltons and Ironborn.  Regardless, if Lady Stonehart's key objectives are revenge against Freys, Boltons, and Ironborn, her purpose leads her unquestioningly to the North.

4. Thoros and Gendry would surely tell Catelyn about Arya surviving the events following Ned's execution.  They do not know, however, that she was taken by the Hound. Thus, it is plausible that if they heard word of Ramsey's marriage to Arya, they would have sent someone to check.  This lends credence to the theory that the Hooded Man is a member of the group, such as Harwin.  (*The purpose of this thread isn't to delve into Hooded Man theories unless they are in regard to BwB)

5. Tying together points from 2,3,&4, I think her goal is unquestionably to head north and reclaim Winterfell as she is out for revenge on everyone who wronged her family and out to save her daughter.  Inevitably, she is going to find Jon Snow.  How will he fit into this new paradigm?

6. What role with Greywater Watch, Howland Reed, Robb’s will, and LS in possession of Robb’s Crown have in connection with #5 (meeting Jon Snow)?

These are just a few thoughts that the topic brings up in my mind, but I am open to hearing opposing viewpoints, critiques, or ways we can add on to this topic.

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Revenge against the Freys, Revenge against the Boltons, and Revenge against the Ironborn.  If we accept this as true, then I would say some of our missing folks are likely with the Boltons and Ironborn. 

We know for a fact that the Brotherhood is at least gunning for both the Freys and the Boltons:

Quote

"What does she want of me?"

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man.  "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding.  Freys and Boltons, aye.  We'll give her those, as many as she likes.  All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."

So if they plan on killing many Boltons then at least some of the Brotherhood has to travel up North, and yes, most probably to Winterfell.

[Lady Rhodes]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We know for a fact that the Brotherhood is at least gunning for both the Freys and the Boltons:

So if they plan on killing many Boltons then at least some of the Brotherhood has to travel up North, and yes, most probably to Winterfell.

Oh, I didn't mean to make my comments seem revolutionary. Certainly, they are not.  I was just summing up some basic thoughts.  thank you for the textual support, though!

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh, I didn't mean to make my comments seem revolutionary. Certainly, they are not.  I was just summing up some basic thoughts.  thank you for the textual support, though!

I've actually found that most people kind of ignore that bit.  The assumption being is that her entire revenge arc will take place with the Freys in the Riverlands.  I think your analysis is spot on that her revenge plan should ultimately take her up North.  And the fact that she is still fondling Robb's Crown of the North makes me believe she plans on setting her sights on Winterfell.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

4. Thoros and Gendry would surely tell Catelyn about Arya surviving the events following Ned's execution.  They do not know, however, that she was taken by the Hound.

Well, yes they do. A Storm of Swords ends with the Stoneheart wing of the Brotherhood apprehending Merrett Frey and demanding the whereabouts of Sandor Clegane, who was seen with "a young boy, or maybe a girl." The Bw/oB know Sandor kidnapped Arya, and we know that they've told her. Thoros and Lem, probably others, have found the "grave" of the Hound, so they can assume he's dead - and Brienne can confirm that - which leaves Arya's whereabouts uncertain.

When they learn that "Arya" has married Ramsey (the Bastard of Bolton) Snow, i agree that there will be even more incentive to head North. Lady Cat just HATES bastards.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

From the wiki:

Wow. Smh

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I thought just copying that above would provide an easy reference. 

Yea, unfortunately its also inaccurate

Like Beric, Greenbeard and Swampy Meg are all lumped in as "formally", why? Smh.

So, affc appendix, it looks like this

Quote

Outlaws and Broken Men

{BERIC DONDARRION}, once Lord of Blackhaven, six times slain,

• EDRIC DAYNE, Lord of Starfall, a boy of twelve, Lord Beric's squire,
• THE MAD HUNTSMAN of Stoney Sept, his sometime ally,
• GREENBEARD, a Tyroshi sellsword, his uncertain friend,
• ANGUY THE ARCHER, a bowman from the Dornish Marches,
• MERRIT O'MOONTOWN, WATTY THE MILLER, SWAMPY MEG, JON O' NUTTEN, outlaws in his band,

LADY STONEHEART, a hooded woman, sometimes called MOTHER MERCY, THE SILENT SISTER, and THE HANGWOMAN,

• LEM, called LEM LEMONCLOAK, a onetime soldier,
• THOROS OF MYR, a red priest,
• HARWIN, son of Hullen, a northman once in service to Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell,
• JACK-BE-LUCKY, a wanted man, short an eye,
• TOM OF SEVENSTREAMS, a singer of dubious report, called TOM SEVENSTRINGS and TOM O'SEVENS,
• LIKELY LUKE, NOTCH, MUDGE, BEARDLESS DICK, outlaws,

Did you notice that gap in between Jon oNutten and Catelyn? Well, the wiki folk did and apparently came to the definitive conclusion that the Brotherhood split.

 

But wikis wrong. Greenbeard is not formally Brotherhood. He still is Brotherhood. Beric told Greenbeard (and the mad hunstsman) to use Sandors money to supply the Arbor. Like, why would people think he quit? Hes in the middle of work right now.

As far as young Ned goes, I theorize that, like a good squire, hes going to bury Beric by his home. Anguy is from the marches too so that works out nicely. 

The idea that the Brotherhood split is solely grounded in a double space in an appendix.

 

 

Ok, so. I dont think Cat wants Arya for Robbs crown, nor for a Nissa Nissa. I think LSH "wants her kids back", pretty simple reason.

The Brotherhood (sisterhood?) operates in the RL with many of them being locals. We see Beric feeding the Arbor and Catelyn operating an orphanage, the Brotherhood is invested in the Riverlands specifically the lady Catelyn Tully. I don't see them changing their direction to up north

 

 

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

. What role with Greywater Watch, Howland Reed, Robb’s will, and LS in possession of Robb’s Crown have in connection with #5 (meeting Jon Snow)?

Quote

think that the BF joined the BwB (remember Tom ‘o’ Sevens with Jaime and Edmure?, he must’ve come to save-cum-recruit the BF…apart from setting up Ryman Frey)

 

Then BF would’ve met Lady Stoneheart-before or after the Brienne episode, mostly before- and would’ve certainly made plans immediately. Some of them-according to my guessing, speculating and calculations are:

 

· To safely see off Ned’s bones. Lady Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell would be sorely disappointed in her intended revenge, because the bones did not cross the Neck and never will for some time (till the series-TWOW/ADOS- ends or war does)….as they are probably under the care of Howland Reed at Greywater Watch. Harwin or better, Lem Lemoncloak(who is really Richard Lonmouth who knows about R+L=J and Howland reeds Harrenhal tourney identity)may be sent to treat with him. I also believe that the troops that were sent from Riverrun are at GWW, like the rest of the stragglers and survivors of Robb’s host.

 

· I also believe that the BF faked his disdain/hatred towards Jon (but not Theon) because he was close to Robb in his council and would have been instrumental in making him decide Jon as the North’s heir. Cat was b***h and a different matter, moreover, while Ned himself hid Jon’s parentage from her, why wouldn’t Robb do something similar?

 

· So Gendry/Harwin(if the BF himself goes to GWW)/Anguy/Lem/Thoros/Tom or anyone could be sent to the Wall to bring back their heir….though it would end in failure since….u know.

 

· If word of the tourney in the Vale and Alayne Stone reached the Bro.hood, LadyS would know the truth about LF and connect it with Sansa’s disappearance from KL (with a helpful knock on the head from her uncle, the BF to make her rotten brain think)and maybe send somebody in disguise to investigate. Maybe he is one of the 3 new knights that LF takes into his service. Not Ser Shadrich (who has his own agenda for gold/for Varys), but maybe Ser Morgarth ( Lem Lemoncloak here??) who is not the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle as many believe, but that is a different thread. Or the other one whose name I forgot.

 

· If the BF has joined the BwB, he’d know about the Hound and Arya and maybe send someone to find her, by eliminating the unlikely possibilities and choosing Braavos along with a few other locations (or go himself, though that’s unlikely, given that he won’t recognize her, maybe Harwin’d go) Maybe he’d send Harwin to get an Iron Bank loan and he’d find Arya by chance. This is less of a stretch than the previous one.

 

· If, no, when Arya returns, the Freys would be in for a treat with Nymeria (warg Arya)and her monstrous pack aided with all of the GWW survivors…surely bad-ass Blackfish would not be idle without raising a host to avenge his grand-nephew…or could hire sellswords with Iron Bank of Braavos loan.

 

+ Thoros may be sent to treat with fAegon and/or Dany if he has any prophetic visions. Have to check Dany’s Quaithe visions about suitors to see if any hint hidden.

 

++There may be new dragon eggs joining the plot. See theories about the Burned Men of the Vale descending from the Painted Dogs who worshipped Nettles and Sheepstealer. Maybe Sansa would find an egg or two. See old theories (if 2015 is old) about her being kidnapped by Shadrich and getting the mountain clans’ help with the Imp’s name and finding the egg with Timett, son of Timett. Plus, at the Wall, Silverwing could have laid a clutch at the Nightfort. Maybe eggs do not turn to stone under cold conditions, but hibernate/cryo-freeze-sleep. Maybe BloodRaven’s Butterwell egg is at Winterfell in the crypts…..or….

 

+++…or it is at the bottom of the Red Fork. Remember Bloodraven telling Bran that his grand uncle was probably named after him, BRYNDEN. Bloodraven was from the riverlands and could’ve entrusted the egg to Hoster and Brynden’s father, Lord Tully to take it with him to the afterlife. After all, Brynden RIVERS knew that something like Summerhall would happen if it was left in the hands of foolish wannabe dragons. Why? Even the Blackfish could’ve been told the secret…or could’ve found the egg while escaping.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

the wiki folk did and apparently came to the definitive conclusion that the Brotherhood split.

But wikis wrong

In case you missed it, my initial post said: (emphasis added)

19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

the group has splintered or only appears to have splintered

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as young Ned goes, I theorize that, like a good squire, hes going to bury Beric by his home. Anguy is from the marches too so that works out nicely.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, so. I dont think Cat wants Arya for Robbs crown, nor for a Nissa Nissa. I think LSH "wants her kids back", pretty simple reason.

The Brotherhood (sisterhood?) operates in the RL with many of them being locals. We see Beric feeding the Arbor and Catelyn operating an orphanage, the Brotherhood is invested in the Riverlands specifically the lady Catelyn Tully. I don't see them changing their direction to up north

The section that I bolded - agreed. Also, I like your bit about Edric taking Beric to Dorne.  This could be interesting because we have an errant Darkstar and Obara and Areo Hotah hunting in that area as well.

I never said that she wants Arya for Robb's crown or for Nissa Nissa, but I think you are completely inaccurate about them being solely invested in the Riverlands as Catelyn Tully. Thoros even mentions that they have fallen low and become outlaws themselves.  I think that speaks that they have gone far from a humanitarian mission into a mission based on vengeance.

16 hours ago, zandru said:

A Storm of Swords ends with the Stoneheart wing of the Brotherhood apprehending Merrett Frey and demanding the whereabouts of Sandor Clegane, who was seen with "a young boy, or maybe a girl." The Bw/oB know Sandor kidnapped Arya, and we know that they've told her. Thoros and Lem, probably others, have found the "grave" of the Hound, so they can assume he's dead - and Brienne can confirm that - which leaves Arya's whereabouts uncertain.

They know the Hound was spotted with someone. They do not know, as your quote points out, with whom he was spotted.

@TheLastWolf Your post actually inspired this one! I am not sure how I feel about the Blackfish fitting into this.  I think it is interesting, though.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Brotherhood (sisterhood?) operates in the RL with many of them being locals. We see Beric feeding the Arbor and Catelyn operating an orphanage, the Brotherhood is invested in the Riverlands specifically the lady Catelyn Tully. I don't see them changing their direction to up north

Then I’m curious as to how you see them fulfilling their promise to kill Boltons?

After all, It was Roose Bolton who stabbed her son in the heart right in front of her.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

hey know the Hound was spotted with someone. They do not know, as your quote points out, with whom he was spotted.

I think the Brotherhood totally knows. "A young boy or maybe a girl" -- That's Arya all over. The Brotherhood knew Arya disappeared, without her horse or any of her things (she had a sword, remember? Oversized, but still.) They knew Clegane had been lurking around, demanding compensation, and that they themselves viewed Arya as a walking sack of gold, just waiting to be redeemed. The Brotherhood has further learned that the Hound was spotted outside the Twin Towers during the Red Wedding with a young boy or maybe a girl.

Also, do not forget that Lady Stoneheart knew that this description fit Arya perfectly, but could never in 1,000 years apply to Sansa.

We may legitimately quibble with the differences between "know" and "be almost totally certain". Either way, it's good enough for me.

[Lord Lannister]

From a narrative standpoint I did prefer the idea of the BWB under Beric than under Stoneheart. Under the former they were an interesting, if imperfect group of people fighting for something somewhat unique in the crazy world they live in. Under the latter they're just another group of murderous thugs, the only thing making them special is they have a zombie leading them, but otherwise indistinguishable from the other brigands and robbers that hound the land.

[Lady Rhodes]

51 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think the Brotherhood totally knows. "A young boy or maybe a girl" -- That's Arya all over. The Brotherhood knew Arya disappeared, without her horse or any of her things (she had a sword, remember? Oversized, but still.) They knew Clegane had been lurking around, demanding compensation, and that they themselves viewed Arya as a walking sack of gold, just waiting to be redeemed. The Brotherhood has further learned that the Hound was spotted outside the Twin Towers during the Red Wedding with a young boy or maybe a girl.

Also, do not forget that Lady Stoneheart knew that this description fit Arya perfectly, but could never in 1,000 years apply to Sansa.

We may legitimately quibble with the differences between "know" and "be almost totally certain". Either way, it's good enough for me.

Okay, I can understand how you think this, but can we unpack it?  I find it skeptical that they knew for a few reasons.  Let's say that the Brotherhood and Stoneheart know that the Hound has Arya.  But what are they to do with this information? If we are operating on the premise that LS wants her children back/revenge for her children, they would be going after her. Thus, they would be heading toward any mention of the Hound.  Given that there is someone operating as "the Hound", one would think that would be where Arya would be, too, and where they would  look for her. But Thoros says that they found the Hound's grave.  To have found the Hounds grave, they would have had to have gone to the Saltpans, because, based on Arya's Storm chapters and the Brienne's visit in Feast, the Hound "died" in the Saltpans. 

This is an outlaw gang that seems to fade into the shadows, evading capture, with their home base on the west side of Riverrun. They are, without question, avoiding main roads and traveling routes.  The closest comparison we have to this would be Jaime and Brienne going to King's Landing and Arya and the Hound in their travels, both of which are not fast endeavors.  It could be argued that the BwB has the help of the small people and common folk, but I would add two caveats to that. The first being that Thoros admits that they have fallen low and he considers them more akin to outlaws rather than the champion of the poor that they were previously. 

Quote

"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

The second being that Brienne and Podrick, during their travels, hear a lot of gossip on the road, but they only briefly hear of Stoneheart.

Quote

"He's not. Alyn is certain of that. Dondarrion's men are looking for him too. They have put out word that they mean to hang him for what he did at Saltpans. They had no part of that. Lord Randyll is putting it about that they did in hopes of turning the commons against Beric and his brotherhood. He will never take the lightning lord so long as the smallfolk are protecting him. And there's this other band, led by this woman Stoneheart . . . Lord Beric's lover, according to one tale. Supposedly she was hanged by the Freys, but Dondarrion kissed her and brought her back to life, and now she cannot die, no more than he can." Brienne considered the map. "If Clegane was last seen at Saltpans, that would be the place to find his trail."

My point is this: I don't think they have the support of the common people any longer, thus traveling would take a very long time.  I don't believe Thoros when he says that they found the Hound's grave because to travel from the Saltpans to Hollow Hill, with another group down by the Mander, is not realistic when we know there has been a huge focus on the Frey's and the Bolton's, closer to the Neck and the North.  However, they never would have abandoned the search for Arya, either.  If they believed that the Hound died by the Saltpans, they would be all over that area and the surrounding area looking for Arya. Which they are not.  

So, that is why I don't think that they knew that Arya was with the Hound.  If that makes cogent sense.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

From a narrative standpoint I did prefer the idea of the BWB under Beric than under Stoneheart. Under the former they were an interesting, if imperfect group of people fighting for something somewhat unique in the crazy world they live in. Under the latter they're just another group of murderous thugs, the only thing making them special is they have a zombie leading them, but otherwise indistinguishable from the other brigands and robbers that hound the land.

I think that is the point.  War is hell and tarnishes everyone. Nothing is noble. I completely agree with your analysis of BwB under Beric versus Stoneheart, but I think that the "fall of man", so to speak, is the point.

[Curled Finger]

Good grief there is a lot to process here.  I didn't see Gendry listed as a member of the BwB and he definitely is.  He was also knighted with them.  That means something.  

Wiki is well intended, but often makes biased or reaches conclusion claims.  Take facts and leave the rest.  While it is certain that the BwB is a numerous and pretty far reaching organization, there doesn't appear to be a cohesiveness to it any more.  It's likely that there are several groups operating and many didn't have the heart for the vicious type of revenge LSH is after.  They aren't all broken.   For all it's worth, Thoros of Myr seems dissatisfied with both LSH and the direction the core of the BwB has taken.  Wonder why he's still there?  

There is a larger intelligence and plan than we actually see in LSH's group.  Anguy and Tom O'Sevens are both at Riverrun.  Not by accident.  Ned Dayne has company i.e., escorts or protectors, in tow on whatever his journey is.  The BwB under Beric Dondarion didn't strike me as a group of people likely to abandon their cause and I doubt all the members we don't see have actually left.  Maybe that's just wishful thinking.  

Where the heck is the Ghost of High Heart when you need to know what's happening?  

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

In case you missed it, my initial post said: (emphasis added)

Word. I just felt the need to vent/inform about wikis assumption

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

The section that I bolded - agreed.

Yea, I mean thats pretty much what they said

Quote

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes.

I think that "or" is a big distinction from "and". Yes, in the last moment of Cats life she was absorbed by murderous irrational vengance, but thirty seconds before that she was swearing eternal peace with Frey, vowing to forgo vengeance for her childs life. So, in conclusion, I think theres still good in her and Aryas probably the one to bring it out

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

. Also, I like your bit about Edric taking Beric to Dorne.  This could be interesting because we have an errant Darkstar and Obara and Areo Hotah hunting in that area as well.

The adventure of Edric and Anguy sounds cool. 

Word, the Dornish theater is getting real interesting

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think you are completely inaccurate about them being solely invested in the Riverlands as Catelyn Tully

Lem was tasked with guarding the orphanage, the BWB is still taking active participation in the welfare of the Riverlands. 

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Thoros even mentions that they have fallen low and become outlaws themselves.  I think that speaks that they have gone far from a humanitarian mission into a mission based on vengeance.

Im like, obsessed, with Thoros' judgemental hypocrisy. There's so much to digest!

So, what was Beric if not an outlaw? The noose awaits them all. I think serving a fallen lord with the cause to protect the land from lions and mad dogs has a strong sense of romanticism. They even called themselves knights. But every day Thoros reminded themselves, the night is dark and full of terror.

The longer and longer Berics war lasted the more and more monstrous he appeared. Now they serve Stoneheart the zombie, the monster. The lions have left, yet their war hasnt. The romance has died and with it their morale. Now Thoros laments while Ser Lem eagerly dons the helm of the mad dog of the Saltpens. 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then I’m curious as to how you see them fulfilling their promise to kill Boltons?

After all, It was Roose Bolton who stabbed her son in the heart right in front of her.

Idk.

I just dont see the logistics. The Brotherhood is X thousand strong, as in, who the hell knows. They don't march with waving and countable flags, I just cant picture the brotherhood marching up the kingsroad.

One of the main complaints about the Young Wolf was that he abandoned the north for the riverlands. People depend on Lsh, I think abandoning her home to carve herself a kingdom would go against one of the brotherhoods main priorities, though itd be hysterically ironic

2 hours ago, zandru said:

I think the Brotherhood totally knows.

Totally.

What gets me is they arrest Brienne, Pod and Hyle Hunt, but let that gods damn septon walk. They were so close!

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The Brotherhood would be casting their nets far and wide as long as Catelyn is leading.  Freys, Boltons, Lannisters, Greyjoys, Tyrells. 

[TheLastWolf]

14 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Let's say that the Brotherhood and Stoneheart know that the Hound has Arya.  But what are they to do with this information? 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157331-blackfish-and-bloodraven-starks’-resurgence-new-dragon-eggs-and-more…/

If the BF has joined the BwB, he’d know about the Hound and Arya and maybe send someone to find her, by eliminating the unlikely possibilities and choosing Braavos along with a few other locations (or go himself, though that’s unlikely, given that he won’t recognize her, maybe Harwin’d go) Maybe he’d send Harwin to get an Iron Bank loan and he’d find Arya by chance. This is less of a stretch than the previous one.

·         If, no, when Arya returns, the Freys would be in for a treat with Nymeria (warg Arya)and her monstrous pack aided with all of the GWW survivors…surely bad-ass Blackfish would not be idle without raising a host to avenge his grand-nephew…or could hire sellswords with Iron Bank of Braavos loan.

[The Sleeper]

The Brotherhood know for a fact that the Hound had Arya. She didn't just vanish into thin air. They knew the Hound had been tailing them and he would have left tracks after having taken Arya. The Hound fully expected to be pursued and indeed it is all but spelled out that they rode in pursuit of Arya and the Hound almost all the way to the Twins. 

I don't see anything that would put this in dispute. The only question is whether they would believe that Arya would have fallen into Roose's Bolton at the Twins. However Jeyne had come up from King's Landing conspicuously in another Bolton contingent, so they would likely know about the fraud or have strong reasons to discount this. Hence why they are looking for Arya resulting in dropping orphans at the crossroads and why Gendry is there: because he can identify Arya. 

Should they find her, Lady Stoneheart intends to crown her as Robb's heir. 

[Lady Rhodes]

On 7/13/2020 at 1:57 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Ser Gendry of the hollow hill

@Curled Finger Yep, he is listed! I agree, this shoe will drop at some point.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

there doesn't appear to be a cohesiveness to it any more

I would agree with this statement.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

For all it's worth, Thoros of Myr seems dissatisfied with both LSH and the direction the core of the BwB has taken.  Wonder why he's still there? 

I agree that he has become disenchanted with the mission. Perhaps it is the sunk cost fallacy- he has already invested time, plus loyalty, to the brotherhood. He would no longer be welcome at court. Where else would he go?  The other option is that he is trying to check her or the remaining brotherhood's worst impulses, trying to prevent them from doing something truly heinous.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There is a larger intelligence and plan than we actually see in LSH's group.  Anguy and Tom O'Sevens are both at Riverrun.  Not by accident.  Ned Dayne has company i.e., escorts or protectors, in tow on whatever his journey is.  The BwB under Beric Dondarion didn't strike me as a group of people likely to abandon their cause and I doubt all the members we don't see have actually left.  Maybe that's just wishful thinking.  

I completely agree. There is a lot going on that we don't realize.  I do think that it is possible that some of the group have splintered off, but I think that many of them are on "missions" so to speak. Perhaps there is a group looking for Arya in the Saltpans/Vale/Crownlands area, but as I explained in my initial post, I don't think that is likely. I don't think they know that it was Arya and I think their focus is the North.  Why do you think Anguy is at Riverrun? I had not heard that before.

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, in the last moment of Cats life she was absorbed by murderous irrational vengance, but thirty seconds before that she was swearing eternal peace with Frey, vowing to forgo vengeance for her childs life. So, in conclusion, I think theres still good in her and Aryas probably the one to bring it out

You are not wrong. Before she died she was willing to sue for peace. But upon her resurrection, I think that goes out the window.  That said, revenge can take many forms.  Killing Freys and Boltons  (and Ironborn, I'd argue, too), yes, but I think she'd be satisfied by a variety of outcomes.  I don't think that finding Arya would bring out the good in her, more that she would use Arya to further her plots for revenge because that is now what has consumed her.

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

the Dornish theater is getting real interesting

I have speculated that Areo Hotah may find out whilst in Dorne what happened at the Tower of Joy. What a twist for him, of all people, being the one to unravel that mystery!

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

he BWB is still taking active participation in the welfare of the Riverlands. 

Can you provide text to support this? I wanted to double check because my understanding is the humanitarian mission went by the wayside and they are now in pursuit of a vengeance mission.  I have looked for your quote about the orphanage, but I only find references to Lem trying to find "the hound"/Biter in the Saltpans. 

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im like, obsessed, with Thoros' judgemental hypocrisy. There's so much to digest!

I think that we are in agreement more than appears.  I agree with this. I think the Brotherhood, thematically, is an exploration of the fall of man. How noble their cause (welfare of the commonfolk!) yet how quickly it decayed and rotted. I don't think it is hypocrisy, though, as much as it is the inevitably that war is hell and it touches even the noblest of causes. Were they outlaws before? Absolutely. But that was a badge they could wear with pride. What they have become though is much less so.  

I don't know if you watch this or are familiar, but the CW television show Arrow explored this in the earlier seasons with vigilantism versus common criminal.  That is what I feel with the Brotherhood.

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think abandoning her home to carve herself a kingdom would go against one of the brotherhoods main priorities, though itd be hysterically ironic

She isn't carving herself a kingdom. She is fighting for revenge. Very different.

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

What gets me is they arrest Brienne, Pod and Hyle Hunt, but let that gods damn septon walk. They were so close!

Which is why I don't think they ever saw his grave.

11 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Brotherhood would be casting their nets far and wide as long as Catelyn is leading.  Freys, Boltons, Lannisters, Greyjoys, Tyrells. 

Tyrells? Why? Because they married Margaery to Joffrey and Tommen?

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

If the BF has joined the BwB, he’d know about the Hound and Arya

When did he know?

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

The Brotherhood know for a fact that the Hound had Arya. She didn't just vanish into thin air. They knew the Hound had been tailing them and he would have left tracks after having taken Arya. The Hound fully expected to be pursued and indeed it is all but spelled out that they rode in pursuit of Arya and the Hound almost all the way to the Twins. 

I just did some rereading, and I see that you are right. The Hound was following them and they in turn followed him. But there is one issue - they think he may have Arya but they never mention a boy or girl being with the Hound when they are questioning Merrett Frey. 

Quote

"A dog?" Merrett was lost. "What kind of dog?"

"He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the kingsroad. Did you see him at the wedding, perchance?"

"The Red Wedding?" Merrett's skull felt as if it were about to split, but he did his best to recall. There had been so much confusion, but surely someone would have mentioned Joffrey's dog sniffing round the Twins. "He wasn't in the castle. Not at the main feast . . . he might have been at the bastard feast, or in the camps, but . . . no, someone would have said . . ."

This leads me to believe that they lost Arya way ahead of time.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

When did he know?

If, not when

 

I believe that Lem being Richard Lonmouth will also have great consequences from BwB motives to Jon's parentage. 

See @ladygwynhyfvar s article titled Lemuncloaked. Click above