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Lee-Sensei

What should Walder Frey have done?

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If he wanted to become Lord Paramount of the Trident. If he had openly sided with the Lannisters, after Robb married Jeyne, do you think that Tywin would have given them the position? The Red Wedding understandably turned their House into a pariah and they only got Riverrun out of it (and technically, the Lannisters have that).

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I don't think so. With the Tyrell alliance, the war in the Riverlands was pretty much decided, the Freys wouldn't have that much bargain power.

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1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If he wanted to become Lord Paramount of the Trident. If he had openly sided with the Lannisters, after Robb married Jeyne, do you think that Tywin would have given them the position? The Red Wedding understandably turned their House into a pariah and they only got Riverrun out of it (and technically, the Lannisters have that).

House Stark would had declared war on him, and the North Remembers.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

I don't think so. With the Tyrell alliance, the war in the Riverlands was pretty much decided, the Freys wouldn't have that much bargain power.

Didn’t they? I remember Tywin saying that had the Frey’s rejoined Robb.

EDIT

Found it.

“I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.” When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. 

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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Should have stopped with a wife or two. 

Not to mention all those bastards. 

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16 minutes ago, Patchface. said:

Barred the gates and not let Robb pass and stay neutral

In A Game of Thrones? Certainly, but I think OP is asking about the Red Wedding.

Walder desired revenge for the losses his House had in their agreement with Robb. Sitting back and staying neutral hardly satisfies that.

Most here would not simply do nothing if we made an agreement with someone, paid the price that was set and then been told they were not going to honour their agreement or replace what was given.

32 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Should have stopped with a wife or two. 

Why?

Nothing wrong with the size of his family. It only looks odd because he is so long lived. If he had died at the same age as Tytos, Rickard, Steffon or the age of most other Lords this would not be notable.

32 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Not to mention all those bastards. 

What is wrong with having bastards as long as you provide for them?

 

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If he wanted to become Lord Paramount of the Trident.

I don't think it was about it, though obviously every lord has such ambitions. Frey, Blackwood, Bracken would all jump at the chance.

The Red Wedding was not about that though, it was about an old ancient man needing to get revenge on someone who had wronged him.

Perhaps if he was not so close to death or he had not lost his heir Stevron he would have been less savage.

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

If he had openly sided with the Lannisters, after Robb married Jeyne, do you think that Tywin would have given them the position?

Tywin did not give him the postion anyway. But no, probably not.

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

The Red Wedding understandably turned their House into a pariah and they only got Riverrun out of it (and technically, the Lannisters have that).

It was not about gaining land, though that seems to have been a welcome bonus, with Darry and Riverrun currently being controlled by Freys.

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What is wrong with having bastards as long as you provide for them. 

Read on, you will know... 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why?

Nothing wrong with the size of his family. It only looks odd because he is so long lived. If he had died at the same age as Tytos, Rickard, Steffon or the age of most other Lords this would not be notable

It has resulted in speculations of most of the later Freys on younger wives being fathered by Black Walder. 

BW also has kinslaying and incest allegations. 

If Old Walder Frey hadn't had such a large family, most of them wouldn't wait for others to die and to hasten their demises. We have Big Walder and Black Walder and so on. 

Admit it. Whatever honor was left in that House is long gone, hater or lover does not matter. 

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I honestly doubt Tywin ever would've made Walder Frey Lord Paramount of the Trident. Tywin said there was a task for every tool and a tool for every task. That's all the Freys were to him, a tool. To do the dirty work and take the blame. Tywin never would've seriously considered trusting the Freys with any meaningful power. Walder Frey's unreliable nature was well known well before he ever joined with Robb.

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12 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If he wanted to become Lord Paramount of the Trident. If he had openly sided with the Lannisters, after Robb married Jeyne, do you think that Tywin would have given them the position? The Red Wedding understandably turned their House into a pariah and they only got Riverrun out of it (and technically, the Lannisters have that).

Welder needed to side with the Lannisters at the beginning for that kind of reward.  Such a reward is not going to be on the table after Walder sided with Robb and became part of the Stark rebellion. The Freys technically became criminals for siding with Robb.  The RW was his way to earn his way back to the kingdom.  

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2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Read on, you will know... 

It has resulted in speculations of most of the later Freys on younger wives being fathered by Black Walder. 

Isn't it just his last wife, Annara Farring?  Black Walder does not appear old enought to have been the father of the Rosby-Freys.

Quote

BW also has kinslaying and incest allegations. 

1. We know the allegations of him killing Ryman and Petyr are false. The Brotherhood did those murders

2. Sleeping with cousins is not really classed as incest in Westeros. Ned, Jaime and many others are products of such marriages.

Quote

If Old Walder Frey hadn't had such a large family, most of them wouldn't wait for others to die and to hasten their demises.

That makes no sense given the age of Walder and all his sons. They are ancient by Westerosi standards.

There has been little evidence of Freys hastening each others demise in ther series. Edwyn is convinced his brother wants him dead, which may or may be true, but his accusations about his brother being involved with the deaths of Ryman and Petyr are unfounded.

Plus this has nothing to do with a large family

  • There are only three Corbray brothers, two of them hate each other.
  • Lord Hunter had three sons, his youngest killed him and we are told he plans to kill his oldest  brother.

Having a a large family does not increase the chances of murder.

Quote

 

We have Big Walder and Black Walder and so on. 

Go on?

Quote

Admit it.

Admit what?

Quote

Whatever honor was left in that House is long gone, hater or lover does not matter. 

Nothing in my original post had to do with honour. Of course I agree they are now without honour.

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In A Game of Thrones? Certainly, but I think OP is asking about the Red Wedding.

Walder desired revenge for the losses his House had in their agreement with Robb. Sitting back and staying neutral hardly satisfies that.

Most here would not simply do nothing if we made an agreement with someone, paid the price that was set and then been told they were not going to honour their agreement or replace what was given.

Why?

Nothing wrong with the size of his family. It only looks odd because he is so long lived. If he had died at the same age as Tytos, Rickard, Steffon or the age of most other Lords this would not be notable.

What is wrong with having bastards as long as you provide for them?

I don't think it was about it, though obviously every lord has such ambitions. Frey, Blackwood, Bracken would all jump at the chance.

The Red Wedding was not about that though, it was about an old ancient man needing to get revenge on someone who had wronged him.

Perhaps if he was not so close to death or he had not lost his heir Stevron he would have been less savage.

Tywin did not give him the postion anyway. But no, probably not.

It was not about gaining land, though that seems to have been a welcome bonus, with Darry and Riverrun currently being controlled by Freys.

Oh... I know that the RW wasn’t about becoming the LPs of the Riverlands. That was revenge for all of the sleights that his family had received, not real and imagined over his nearly 100 years of living.

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3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I honestly doubt Tywin ever would've made Walder Frey Lord Paramount of the Trident. Tywin said there was a task for every tool and a tool for every task. That's all the Freys were to him, a tool. To do the dirty work and take the blame. Tywin never would've seriously considered trusting the Freys with any meaningful power. Walder Frey's unreliable nature was well known well before he ever joined with Robb.

I mean... the Frey’s already do have meaningful power. That’s why they were in the position to exact concessions from the Starks and the Lannisters. Also, Tywin trusted Baelish and he’s not exactly trustworthy either.

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3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Read on, you will know... 

It has resulted in speculations of most of the later Freys on younger wives being fathered by Black Walder. 

BW also has kinslaying and incest allegations. 

If Old Walder Frey hadn't had such a large family, most of them wouldn't wait for others to die and to hasten their demises. We have Big Walder and Black Walder and so on. 

Admit it. Whatever honor was left in that House is long gone, hater or lover does not matter. 

I mean... part of that is because a lot of his descendants are shitty people. If they were all like Stevron or Olyvar, this wouldn’t be a problem.

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8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I mean... the Frey’s already do have meaningful power. That’s why they were in the position to exact concessions from the Starks and the Lannisters. Also, Tywin trusted Baelish and he’s not exactly trustworthy either.

Sure, the Freys have some localized power due to geography and are one of the more wealthy houses in the Riverlands. If Walder was made Lord Paramount he may be able to make that stick and start forcing his will on the Iron Throne with his late antics, obstructionism and getting petty over every past slight with the weight of the whole Riverlands behind them. That's why he won't get it.

Sure, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy either. But how much influence is he going to bring over the Riverlands? So far it's been exactly none and the Lannisters are still calling the shots there. Which is the desired result. 

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14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If he wanted to become Lord Paramount of the Trident. If he had openly sided with the Lannisters, after Robb married Jeyne, do you think that Tywin would have given them the position? The Red Wedding understandably turned their House into a pariah and they only got Riverrun out of it (and technically, the Lannisters have that).

Nah, technically the Freys got Riverrun but really its Lannister. Unlike Darry which the Lannisters technically got but really its Freys.

So, whyd Roose become warden? Because he conquered Winterfell obviously, so that's a good start.

Conquering Riverrun and arresting a bunch of Riverlords should do the trick, but thats what they did and it didnt. 

Petyr beat them to it really. If Frey conquered Riverrun before Blackwater the IT would have probably made Frey LP

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Sure, the Freys have some localized power due to geography and are one of the more wealthy houses in the Riverlands. If Walder was made Lord Paramount he may be able to make that stick and start forcing his will on the Iron Throne with his late antics, obstructionism and getting petty over every past slight with the weight of the whole Riverlands behind them. That's why he won't get it.

Sure, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy either. But how much influence is he going to bring over the Riverlands? So far it's been exactly none and the Lannisters are still calling the shots there. Which is the desired result. 

1) Local power? Maybe. Although I’d be shocked if they weren’t at least one of the Top 15 to 20 strongest houses in the series. The Houses of Stark, Manderly, Tully, Greyjoy, Arryn, Royce, Grafton, Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, Hightower, Redwynne and Martell should all be above them, but I can’t think to anyone else. That would make them the 14th and the 2nd in the Riverlands.

2) Arent the Bolton’s notoriously treacherous? They were still made LP’s of the North. In fact, in Jon Conningtons chapter they’re grouped together.

Connington sat. “Tell me more.” 

“In the north the Lannisters are relying on the Boltons and in the riverlands upon the Freys, both houses long renowned for treachery and cruelty. Lord Stannis Baratheon remains in open rebellion and the ironborn of the islands have raised up a king as well. No one ever seems to mention the Vale, which suggests to me that the Arryns have taken no part in any of this.”

3) I’ll admit that you make a fair point about Littlefinger though.

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25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Local power? Maybe. Although I’d be shocked if they weren’t at least one of the Top 15 to 20 strongest houses in the series. The Houses of Stark, Manderly, Tully, Greyjoy, Arryn, Royce, Grafton, Lannister, Baratheon, Tyrell, Hightower, Redwynne and Martell should all be above them, but I can’t think to anyone else. That would make them the 14th and the 2nd in the Riverlands.

 

They are 1st in the Riverlands. Fire and Blood, during the aftermath of the Dance, reveals that Blackwood, Bracken, Vance and Frey all are stronger than House Tully. By the time of the present series House Frey are the most powerful vassals of the Tullys.

it may be possible that the Tullys have increased their power since the Dance, but it seems likely that the Freys are still ahead of them.

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1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

They are 1st in the Riverlands. Fire and Blood, during the aftermath of the Dance, reveals that Blackwood, Bracken, Vance and Frey all are stronger than House Tully. By the time of the present series House Frey are the most powerful vassals of the Tullys.

it may be possible that the Tullys have increased their power since the Dance, but it seems likely that the Freys are still ahead of them.

The time difference between the Tully elevation to paramount and the Dance (~130 years) and the Dance + start of ASOIAF (~165 years) is quite significant. I imagine that they have had some time to expand upon their (at the very least political and economic) strength.

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