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Anyone else hate the concept of Shiera Seastar?

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Posted (edited)

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

She's a *~princess~*

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful') and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her.

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous.

Edited by R2D

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, R2D said:

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

I think its a cool name.....

Almost as cool as Daemon Blackfyre and Orys Baratheon........

12 minutes ago, R2D said:

She's a princess. 

Wasn't she a illegitimate daughter of Aegon IV?

 

12 minutes ago, R2D said:

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but 'only makes her look more beautiful') and silver-gold hair.

Why does this not apply to Dany or majority of famous female Targs?

 

12 minutes ago, R2D said:

She's smart and can speak several languages.

She can do magic.

Fantasy......

 

12 minutes ago, R2D said:

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her

I agree..... This part is just stupid.....

 

12 minutes ago, R2D said:

She's just ridiculous.

Yes she is...... As ridiculous as Rhaegar and Robert at their youth......

And  dozens of other characters in ASOIAF......

Edited by Orm
Punctuation

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Just now, Orm said:

Wasn't she a illegitimate daughter of Aegon IV?

She was legitimized later.

As for why it doesn't apply to other characters, it's cause they have big glaring flaws. Rhaegar basically caused a war with his actions, Dany is very flawed in many ways (don't want to elaborate), Daemon Blackfyre might have been manipulated into going for his claim and I don't think he was very bright...

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2 minutes ago, R2D said:

She was legitimized later.

As for why it doesn't apply to other characters, it's cause they have big glaring flaws. Rhaegar basically caused a war with his actions, Dany is very flawed in many ways (don't want to elaborate), Daemon Blackfyre might have been manipulated into going for his claim and I don't think he was very bright...

Well then, do we know enough about Shaera Seastar to decide that  she isn't flawed?

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Posted (edited)

She's mentioned in the main series like, once. If you want to complain about tropey characters, there are far more egregious offenders, like Darkstar and Val.

Edited by Hodor the Articulate

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8 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

She's mentioned in the main series like, once.

And yet, somehow she figures in nearly every fanspiracy theory!

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9 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

like Darkstar and Val

Lol..... Gerold 'Darkstar' Dayne...... The edgiest edge lord of them all.....

Val is okay for me though....

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Orm said:

Well then, do we know enough about Shaera Seastar to decide that  she isn't flawed?

No, but what little we know makes her belong in a bad anime.

42 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

She's mentioned in the main series like, once. If you want to complain about tropey characters, there are far more egregious offenders, like Darkstar and Val.

Darkstar seems like satire to me.

Now Val is another offender. She's just there to be the perfect love interest.

Edited by R2D

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Don't allow the bored imaginations of a very hungry fandom bring you down.   Shiera Seastar is a mystery on par with Ashara Dayne.  We aren't all interested in the same facets of ASOIAF.  Some enjoy the whole hidden identity thing or shipping romances or figuring out the actual sizes of armies.  There is plenty of frivolous conversation, but some decent insight usually rises to the surface in them.  Is Sheira enough of a character to even care about without her association with Bloodraven?  Yah, I think she might be.   Since Blood and Fire I have become really dubious about some of the witchy female characters, including Sheira.  Magic practitioner?  Like what?  Duels for her hand?   Sounds like there weren't a lot of beautiful women at the time.  One thing I think we can rely on is that she was interesting.   Any interest of Bloodraven's is interesting.  Even the boring Blackfyres.  I would like to know her fate and what influence she held if any over her half brothers.  Seems to me any woman with that much to offer would have some sort of importance beyond being the object of so many men's affections.  Still, I have never cared enough about her to post a topic.   She's an extraordinary illegitimate child with all the finest benefits of royal rearing.  Then she is legitimized with her gang of famous half siblings.   There is something there, but what?    

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Lol..... Gerold 'Darkstar' Dayne...... The edgiest edge lord of them all.....

Val is okay for me though....

Obviously Shiera is Darkstar's mother. Confirmed.

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16 minutes ago, zandru said:

Heh. Who wasn't?

Daeron the good and his full sister Danearys..... At least officially.....

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I mean she did turn bloodraven down because it amused her to make him jealous so I would say her personality is very flawed.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, King17 said:

I mean she did turn bloodraven down because it amused her to make him jealous so I would say her personality is very flawed.

That should be more of a reason why she's a Mary Sue. She's mean but everyone still loves her.

Edited by R2D

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2 hours ago, R2D said:

She's mean but everyone still loves her

Kinda like Renly the Friendly..... Now that guy is a introverted homosexual's fantasy..... Too bad Stannis made it a nightmare.......

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I.           I concede that GRRM could maybe have picked a better name. Otherwise however Shiera Seastar is mostly just a combined version of Alys Rivers and Saera Targaryen (daughter of Jaeharys) introduced in Fire & Blood, and is similar to many other characters and historical Westerosi women we've elsewhere been introduced to. More broadly she's a combined version of GRRM's takes on the middle ages literary trope of the absurdly beautiful noble woman, and the female Christian mystics and pagan witches of the middle ages -- both of which have already been integrated into the general story line, and the Targaryen story line specifically. 

        A.         Most obviously, the transcendent beauty people thing is already a trope for Targaryens in the main series ("beautiful in the way only a Targaryen can be beautiful"). Saera playing the young Beesbury, Connington, and Motoon as fools before going overseas to become a legendary courtesan is a good forerunner to Shiera given to us in Fire & Blood.

        B.         Additionally, magic practitioners, frequently women, have always been a thing in Westeros. Alys Rivers, the blood magic practicing bastard of the Riverlands who occupied Harrenhal presages both Shiera Seastar and Mad Danelle Lothston. Seastar also echoes Maegor's Pentoshi wife Tyanna of the Tower. Additionally, the Targaryens themselves are said to have visions and dreams through the centuries. These originally warned the Targaryens of the Doom and brought them to Dragonstone. These also led Aegon V to the horror and tragedy of Summerhall. Even just looking at the time of Dunk & Egg the magic trope doesn't belong to Shiera Seastar alone. It encompass at least King Aerys I, Bloodraven, Daemon II Blackfyre, and Mad Danelle Lothston.

II.      But to drive the point home: if Shiera Seastar somehow reflects a lame aspect of GRRM's writing, then it's not isolated to Shiera Seastar. But rather the tropes of magic and almost god-like beauty among the Targaryens which you can find woven into the main series, Dunk & Egg, as well as the histories given in the World of Ice and Fire and Fire & Blood. So as you might be able to tell, I don't hate the concept of her at all actually.

III.         Speaking more generally again: I appreciate the bastard and legitimate children of Aegon IV like Shiera Seastar allow GRRM to explore a wide range of legitimated royal bastards within the context of the usual drama of Targaryen rule. This allows GRRM to discuss a typical Targaryen (and historical) drama, i.e. royal family love triangles which implicate high politics. But then he gets to use that framework and discuss at length the concepts of bastardy, legitimacy, and what it means to be a legitimized bastard -- which obviously fascinates him.   

             Shiera Seastar and the rivalry of Bittersteel and Bloodraven for her affections (which neither wins) isn't the only Targaryen bastard love story going on at this time. Additionally interesting (and something I'm interested to see explored more) is the fact that Danerys Targaryen (sister of Dareon II) loved Daemon Blackfyre but Dareon II sent her to make peace with Dorne instead. "The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him."

Concluding Thoughts: Would be happy to see textual evidence that I'm wrong and Seastar is unique among GRRM's characters in being a lame "mary sue" who "belongs in an anime". However I'm pretty sure she's just another example of GRRM talking about similar concepts and invoking similar literary tropes (bastardy; magic; royal beauty; love) through multiple different characters throughout the Westerosi histories he gives and the stories he writes. 

 

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12 hours ago, R2D said:

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

She's a *~princess~*

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful') and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her.

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous.

She's not lame at all.  Nothing wrong with the concept of her character.  We have no idea how much of what was 'said' about her is true.  Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder.  Personally, mismatched eyes are not attractive to me.  It may be for George and Brynden.  And she may not be a sorceress at all.

Silver-gold hair is lovely.  Blonde hair is gorgeous.  

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, R2D said:

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

Not me, and certainly not @Megorova.

16 hours ago, R2D said:

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

Your opinion. Wait till Meg pops in to explain the significance of her name. And also why she is the 3EC /Quaithe. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

She's a *~princess~*

Nope. A Great bastard legitimized at the end by the Unworthy wannabe dragon. Never a princess. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous,

I don't remember the exact words, but not gorgeous. More like femme fatale. Stunning. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful'

She ain't Tyrion. And Mystique/Raven was hot too with those mesmerizing mismatched eyes. When she wanted, that is. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

I assume that you mean unique. Nope again. There were 16 Targaryen bastards before her. Not to mention the True born dragons and cousins. And Celtigars, Velaryons, Lyseni at court etc etc. Not at all unique, be it the hair or looks or eyes or whatever. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She has, or had flaws. Vanity and pride chiefly. Being smart and able to speak different languages applies to a lot of characters whom I don't care to mention now. 90% of the nobility for instance. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

So what??? 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her

Just Bloodraven and Bittersteel were gutsy/bold/worthy enough. Others could fight all they want. These two only were of significance or consequence. 

16 hours ago, R2D said:

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous

Glad you mentioned that. 

16 hours ago, zandru said:
16 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

She's mentioned in the main series like, once.

And yet, somehow she figures in nearly every fanspiracy theory

Not fanspiracy if you look at the finer details. I believe some of them, yet am not a fan. Of her, I mean. Can't wait for Megorova to pop in.

Edited by TheLastWolf

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Not me, and certainly not @Megorova.

Your opinion. Wait till Meg pops in to explain the significance of her name. And also why she is the 3EC /Quaithe. 

I don't care about your fan theories.

Please don't comment with any theories.

And being vain doesn't make her not a Sue. Shiera Seastar is a Jerk Sue

Edited by R2D

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