Orys: who was that guy actually?

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

You know all these theories/possibilities are all fine and dandy as proposed by FFR, Lord Varys and even the one proposed by Megorova..... BUT and it's a big but.....

Orys nor Aegon doesn't bother to mention this at least once....... Why hide it?

There are at least two possibilities even outside of ASOIAF's world:

1. At the time when GRRM wrote The World Book, he didn't thought about it in finer details, because it's not that important.

2. GRRM intentionally didn't revealed to readers who Orys' mother was, because it is important, and significant for the further plot.

 

If the mother was a Stark, a Crane, or a Swann, or an ancestor/or descendant of those Houses, then it's connected to what's currently going on in the books.

GRRM wrote a very complicated plotting around House Swann.

First of all - after Durrandons House Swann is the most powerfull House of Stormlands, also one of the most ancient. Durrandons were petty Kings and controled only part of what later became Stormlands. Thus, it's likely that House Swann were not (or at least not always) bannermen of Durrandons, more likely is that they were rivals of House Durrandon, and that they were users of dark magic, and that the spells in Storm's End castle were protective spells agains magic of Swanns.

I think that, same as in case of House Crane, female-Swanns are carriers of "magic genes". Probably, female Swanns are shadowbinders. And that's the meaning behind their House's sigil - it's not two swans, a white and a black, but rather a white swan and her black shadow.

I'm sure that Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was:

1. a daughter of knight Byron Swann;

2. a courtesan in The Perfumed Garden pleasure house, owned by Lysandro Rogare;

3. mother of Larra Rogare, Lysandro's daughter.

Larra was a user of magic. That's obvious from Fire&Blood book. I think that Larra inherited her abilities from her mother, and thru her mother was a partial Swann (she was also a cat-skinchanger and a shadowbinder). Thus all Targaryens after Aegon IV, and also Blackfyres, and all of Aegon's children, are partial Swanns.

Also I think that Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys is the same person. I'm ABSOLUTELY sure in this.

Shiera Seastar, who is also a shadowbinder Quaithe, who is also the Three-Eyed Crow, and also a cat-skinchanger, same as Larra was, is a product of incest between a mother (Larra/Serenei) and a son (Aegon IV).

Furthermore, I think that Septa Lemore's real name is Jeyne Swann, and that she is fAegon's mother, and the Perfumed Seneschal (because her ancestor, Johanna Swann, was working as a courtesan in The Perfumed Garden of Lys).

Also, thru Rhaelle Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, Renly, Stannis, and Shireen are also partially Swanns.

If my theory is correct, and a shadowbinding is a magic-trait, specific for female-carriers of Swann-genes, then Melisandre, who is a shadowbinder, is also bloodrelated to Targaryens and Baratheons and Blackfyres and Swanns.

There's a possibility, that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to R'hllor. Shireen is the last Baratheon (without inclusion of Robert's bastards, she's the last legitimate Baratheon). With Shireen House Baratheon will end, how it began with Orys. If Orys' mother was a Swann, and Melisandre is a carrier of Swann-genes, then House Baratheon will be brought to an end by a Swann, same as it got started from a Swann.

Orys' mother could have been both - a carrier of Swann-genes and a Crane-Stark. GRRM said that all Great Houses of Westeros intermarried, and all of them are bloodrelated. For example - from my previous theory about the Rose of Red Lake and Winterfell's blue roses - one of female-Cranes could have married with a Stark, while her sister married with a Swann, and both of them were Rose's descendants. If Rose was married with Bran the Builder, and had with him many children, grandchildren, etc., then one of the girls could have married back into House Crane, and this girl's descendants married into House Swann and Stark. For example, if Orys' mother was a daughter of a Swann-father, while her mother was a Crane, and this Crane-mother was a descendant from an earlier marriage between Cranes and Starks, thus it seems logical for her daughter to marry back into House Stark (because they are amongst her ancestors). Targaryens did this sort of thing all the time - they married their girls to other Houses, like Velaryon, Baratheon, Arryn, Penrose, and then married their daughters back into House Targaryen. Starks also did this many times. So, Orys' mother was half-Swann (on her father's side) and half-Crane (on her mother's side), and also thru her mother she was a partial Stark (thru marriage between a Stark and a Crane that happened several generations ago), and she was getting married with a Stark, and going to live at Winterfell, and on her wedding night she conceived a child with Lord Aenar Targaryen, who used his right of the first night. Or something like that.

Rose of Red Lake + Bran the Builder

children

-

many generations in which Cranes and Starks and other Houses intermarried

-

Theon Stark (descendant of Rose and Bran)

his daughter, a Stark-girl + Swann-husband =

Orys' mother, a Swann-girl + Stark-husband (+Aenar Targaryen) =

House Stark, Orys Baratheon (Bara as a Rose, and Theon as his maternal great-grandfather, King Theon Stark).

(Maybe, Ned and Robert were bloodrelated and knew about it, that Starks are bloodrelated to Baratheons)

So, she possibly was a Swann, but it still makes sense for Aenar to present her with blue roses from the Crane Lake and to build for her a glass green-house at Winterfell.

Or, there are many other options. Less or more convoluted. Though, if the identity of Orys' mother is important, then GRRM will eventually reveal it. Though, based on him writing complicated plots, probably, this mystery, about the mother, also will be complicated.

[Universal Sword Donor]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The Heddles were from a Knightly family according to the wiki.  And Mott was from Qohor.  Perhaps the Baratheons were from Essos, it just doesn't sound like an Essos name to me.

I don't know if they were Essosi or Valyrian but their name tracks similarly:

• Velaryon
• Targaryen
• Baratheon
• Belaerys
• Qoherys (sp?)

Either way, I don't think having a last name is that weird for Orys. His father could have been descended from a knightly family similarly to the Heddles or even have been a household knight himself. It wouldn't surprise me if Orys were his close friend because they were raised in DS and trained together under the master at arms. It's not exactly a stretch given the close relationships forged in their respective youths (Nedbert, JonCon / Rhaegar, Renly / Loras, Robb / Olivar (ish), Trystane / Myrcella, Addam / Jaime). All speculation though, just the way GRRM likes it 

And we don't know Tobho was from Qohor, just strongly inferred based on his ability to re forge VS. 

 

 

[Orm]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Durrandons were petty Kings and controled only part of what later became Stormlands. Thus, it's likely that House Swann were not (or at least not always) bannermen of Durrandons, more likely is that they were rivals of House Durrandon, and that they were users of dark magic, and that the spells in Storm's End castle were protective spells agains magic of Swanns.

Dude/dudette, Durrandons have the most badass origin story out of all the great houses..... And if it's true then they are descended from Demi-gods....... Also explains why their genes are too cool to be recessive....

But your theory does give me food for thought..... Thanks....

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/3/2020 at 12:44 PM, Orm said:

"Dragonseeds, they call them" Jahearys said with obvious reluctance."It is not a thing to boast of, but it has happened, mayhaps more than we could care to admit. Such children are cherished though. Orys Baratheon was himself a dragonseed, a bastard brother to our grandsire. Whether he was conceived of a first night I cannot, but lord Aerion was his father, that was well known. Gifts were given..."

So this is what we get about of him from Jehearys I himself.... It seems that most people in the fandom and think of him as a rumoured bastard(unconfirmed).... But since gifts were given, is it rather not obvious?

And what exactly is the name Baratheon? Orys virtually kept everything of the Durrandons. Why not the name?..... A name arguably more prestigious than the name Stark....... He disregarded the name but, NOO the Stag is too cool to be changed..... What gives???

And also the Baratheon super gene/pheno-type which becomes a plot point in the major storyline...... Is it actually the Durrandon gene/pheno-type?

He was a rumoured Targaryen bastard. That’s about all that we know. Although, he certainly didn’t have the look. He was black haired, black eyed and well built. With the exception of his eyes, he looked like a Durrandon/Baratheon. I doubt that this is ever going to be confirmed though. George likes to let people think about these things for themselves.

[Orm]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He was a rumoured Targaryen bastard. That’s about all that we know. Although, he certainly didn’t have the look. He was black haired, black eyed and well built. With the exception of his eyes, he looked like a Durrandon/Baratheon. I doubt that this is ever going to be confirmed though. George likes to let people think about these things for themselves.

"Gifts were given"- Jahearys I. Is it rather not obvious that he is what the in-universe Targs define as dragon-seeds(half-targ)?? 

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, one can go with something along that line, too. I'd find it more interesting if Orys' legal father wasn't a warrior type, stressing the fact that people don't have to be carbon copies of their (legal) fathers. Think Randyll-Samwell or Tytos-Tywin or Aegon-Aenys. Another very good historical parallel would be Criston Cole, who was also just a steward's son with exceptional martial skills - another Glendon Flowers/Ball from TMK, or even Barristan Selmy (whose known ancestors/kin are so far not exactly famed for their prowess as super warriors).

This is something George likes to do.

Sure, I don't think it matters that much.  Whether Baratheon was a stewart, or knight, or master of horse, it probably matters little,  It doesn't seem we'll ever get into that much detail.  But I think my general premise stands.  Reading between the lines, Aerion got a commoner pregnant, and then married her to someone in his employ.  Giving a legal legitimacy to his child, even though it was widlely known, yet spoken only in whispers that the child was Aerion's bastard.

[Lee-Sensei]

6 hours ago, Orm said:

"Gifts were given"- Jahearys I. Is it rather not obvious that he is what the in-universe Targs define as dragon-seeds(half-targ)?? 

It isn’t. We need more details to say that. Maybe we’ll get them, if George ever finishes the books.

[Orm]

46 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It isn’t. We need more details to say that. Maybe we’ll get them, if George ever finishes the books

I don't think Orys was ever mentioned ever in the main series/books.... And I don't think he'll ever be mentioned in the "upcoming books".....

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't know if they were Essosi or Valyrian but their name tracks similarly:

• Velaryon
• Targaryen
• Baratheon
• Belaerys
• Qoherys (sp?)

I could have sworn I heard an interview with GRRM where he mentions Baratheon as an Andal name.  But the only interviews I've been able to find, he only specifically mentions Arryn and Lannister as Andal names.  So   

[Lee-Sensei]

20 minutes ago, Orm said:

I don't think Orys was ever mentioned ever in the main series/books.... And I don't think he'll ever be mentioned in the "upcoming books".....

George has a lot of books planned. It could appear anywhere. People have theorized that the reason Littlefinger wants Roberts Baratheon hunting tapestries, is because it’ll help make his case that Cersei’s kids aren’t real Baratheons. My point is that it’s a rumour for now. It’s possible that he is a Targaryen bastard and it’s possible that he isn’t. We just don’t know for sure yet.

[Lee-Sensei]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I could have sworn I heard an interview with GRRM where he mentions Baratheon as an Andal name.  But the only interviews I've been able to find, he only specifically mentions Arryn and Lannister as Andal names.  So   

I don’t know if he said that, but the Theon part seems to be native to Westeros.

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t know if he said that, but the Theon part seems to be native to Westeros.

I found another thread where someone opined that Orys' mother was a Barra and his father a Theon.  I don't know.  I still find it more likely that the father was a baseborn knight in Aerion's service who was "given gifts" in exchange for agreeing to marry Aerion's commoner pregnant mistress.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I found another thread where someone opined that Orys' mother was a Barra and his father a Theon.  I don't know.  I still find it more likely that the father was a baseborn knight in Aerion's service who was "given gifts" in exchange for agreeing to marry Aerion's commoner pregnant mistress.

Only the nobility have surnames and when someone is becomes a noble or a knight, they seem to pick their names like Seaworth or Clegane. Baratheon is probably like that. Did the book mention whether the Crownlands used Water or Storm before the Targaryens took over?

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Only the nobility have surnames and when someone is becomes a noble or a knight, they seem to pick their names like Seaworth or Clegane. Baratheon is probably like that. Did the book mention whether the Crownlands used Water or Storm before the Targaryens took over?

I couldnt' find anything specifically about any bastards named Storm or Waters prior to Aegon's Conquest.  There are definitely bastards named Rivers and Snow before the conquest, so I assume that in Westeros if you were a bastard in those areas you would be named Waters or Storm.

But the question is what if you were a bastard born on Dragonstone before the Conquest.  Were they being named Waters back then?   That's a good question.

But the fact that Jahearys makes mention of a First Night as a possible moment when Orys was conceived makes me definitely believe that Orys mother was married at some point.  The idea of gifts being received makes me think that the marriage may have been arranged through gifts from Aerion, which makes me believe that Aerion had to sweeten the pot so someone would marry the mother of his child.  And the fact that in Fire and Blood, it was only whispered that Orys was a bastard, makes me think that legally he wasn't a bastard.  And if he legally wasn't a bastard, then that probably means when he was born the mother was lawfully wed.

Aerion supposedly had a Maester so it isn't out of the question that Aerion was also allowing for the concept of Knighthood to exist on Dragonstone.  All of this leads me to believe that Orys got his surname from his legal father, who would have probably only had a surname if he had been knighted or if he was the child from a "knightly family" even if they didn't own any lands.

[Megorova]

On 8/5/2020 at 2:23 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't know if they were Essosi or Valyrian but their name tracks similarly:

• Velaryon
• Targaryen
• Baratheon
• Belaerys
• Qoherys (sp?)

I think, this is all Valyrian names. GRRM said that Valyrian names have ae in them. For example - Aerys, Rhaegar, Maelys, Daeron, Baratheon, Targaryen.

But I also noticed that many Valyrian names have another similarity, instead of ae they have ey in them. For example - Viserys, Rhaenys, Visenya, Daenerys, Velaryon, Belaerys (which has both ae and ey, same as in Aerys and Maelys and Aenys and Rhaenyra), Qoherys.

There's House Celtigar near Dragonstone, who are Valyrians and an old House same as Targaryens. Possibly there's either a mistake in the writing of their name, or their name changed overtime, and originally it was Celtygar instead of Celtigar.

So, if a name has ae or ey in it, then, most likely, it is Valyrian.

[Frey family reunion]

The World of Ice and Fire flat out call Orys a bastard despite the lack of the typical bastard surname.

GRRM in an interview also called Orys a bastard without any qualifications.  (And he didn’t appear to be upset with Orys at the time he named him a bastard ) 

However, Fire and Blood seems to qualify it somewhat by saying only that it was whispered that Orys was a bastard.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

However, Fire and Blood seems to qualify it somewhat by saying only that it was whispered that Orys was a bastard.

The rumored thing goes back to the appendix of AGoT. FaB originally has the rumored bastard thing, but when Gyldayn elaborates on Rogar and his royal blood (Targaryen + Durrandon) it is clear that people saw Orys as a Targaryen bastard then, as did Jaehaerys I when they discussed the first night.

We discussed that with Ran in detail back when FaB first came out, and we of course don't know Gyldayn's sources on Jaehaerys I's statements there. But if we assume that they are genuine then it is rather signficant to consider who Jaehaerys I is and what knowledge he would have access to. He was contemprary of Visenya's who would have known whether Orys was her half-brother or not, he hid with Lord Rogar at Storm's End for years (one assumes), and we have no idea when exactly Argella Durrandon died. She could have been still around in the 40s, as could servants and companions and friends of Orys who knew who he actually was.

Maester Culiper and Septon Oswyck were very old guys, too, who could also have known stuff.

My take on the thing would be to go with the idea that Orys was Aerion's son - but was never acknowledged. And that means it is simply never confirmed officially who he actually was - like it is with Viserys Plumm or some Lothstons and, in a sense, possibly with Addam and Alyn of Hull (who may have been Corlys' sons rather than Laenor's).

[Bael's Bastard]

I tend to think Orys was biologically fathered by Aerion, but born to a marriage between a Baratheon and his mother.

But regardless of whether Aerion truly fathered Orys or not, the fact he either was or was whispered to be paternally Targaryen genetically demonstrates an awareness that Targs could have something other than silver gold hair or purple blue eyes.

Orys was a black haired black eyed bastard that was either a Targ bastard, or widely accepted to be one despite his looks.

This is not coincidental considering Orys and the Baratheon origin in the first appendix, and the Baratheon hair coloring theme throughout the first book.

Also, I see no reason to assume Baratheon is anything but Valyrian, considering its ending is virtually indistinguishable phoenetically from many Valyrian surnames and names we know.

[TheLastWolf]

20 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

black eyed bastard

blue eyed

20 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

awareness that Targs could have something other than silver gold hair or purple blue eyes.

We have many instances of Targs having non-valyrian looks. Example; Daeron the Drunk, Jon (if RLJ true) etc. No others come to my mind right now. They take after their mothers. So we can go that maternal way to determine origins.

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Also, I see no reason to assume Baratheon is anything but Valyrian, considering its ending is virtually indistinguishable phoenetically from many Valyrian surnames and names we know.

Orys took the name for his new house IIRC. it was a new name.

[The Hoare]

24 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

blue eyed

In TWOIAF he's described as black eyed.

50 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Also, I see no reason to assume Baratheon is anything but Valyrian, considering its ending is virtually indistinguishable phoenetically from many Valyrian surnames and names we know.

I think GRRM went with the rule of cool when creating names. Baratheon is similar to Bar Emmon, which is a andal house too, besides "Theon" is a common westerosi name