US Politics: Presidential Harris-ment!

[Centrist Simon Steele]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Actually I would. We can't just keep calling everything racist, especially when it doesn't meet the definition. Kay has made some very valid arguments. I just think she takes it a step too far at times, and part of the point I've been trying to make is you want to create an environment which fosters a desire to learn and grow, not one that makes people want to retreat, and calling an honest mistake that wasn't even racist racist defeats that goal. Like I said before, what she did was some form of cultural appropriation. She claimed to be part of a culture she had little to no connection with and sometimes referenced her connection to it. That's a far cry from racism, a term that should used when it accurate (btw, I make the same argument when people claim that actions which are clearly xenophobic are racist. Both are bad, but they mean different things, and words should retain their meaning). 

Perhaps just have a few good articles bookmarked that you can link then so it's not as much work? 

To your second point, idk. I'd love to read some recent lit on the subject regarding what affects change more. And as much as you may not like it, you may have to make arguments that make white people not feel as bad as they probably otherwise should. You want to open them up, not close them off, and the latter will never help you achieve your overall goal.

(also, none of those terms fit the scenario at hand, because again they assume Warren had some form of negative view, when she was actually taking pride in her perceived ancestry. Fetishization actually fits it a lot better, and there is a lot of truth in that, not necessarily with her but with a lot of people, especially in our neck of the woods)

It's just frustrating that regarding Warren, you'll describe it in just about every conceivable way except racism. I'm not sure what definition you're operating from, but everything you describe about Warren (cultural appropriation, claiming cultural heritage, etc.) are absolutely part of what racism is (and means). 

[DMC]

Just now, JEORDHl said:

It's almost a shame North America is so young we'd [predominantly white people] would rather claim our European [or other] ancestry instead of saying we're simply American, or Canadian.

Yeah about a year ago my parents did the DNA ancestry thing.  I was curious about the results and they both were like "pretty boring."  I was, "so, we're just white?" And they were like "yep."  I don't identify with any European heritage.  I'm simply a white American, may god have mercy on my soul.

[Fury Resurrected]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Actually I would. We can't just keep calling everything racist, especially when it doesn't meet the definition. Kay has made some very valid arguments. I just think she takes it a step too far at times, and part of the point I've been trying to make is you want to create an environment which fosters a desire to learn and grow, not one that makes people want to retreat, and calling an honest mistake that wasn't even racist racist defeats that goal. Like I said before, what she did was some form of cultural appropriation. She claimed to be part of a culture she had little to no connection with and sometimes referenced her connection to it. That's a far cry from racism, a term that should used when it accurate (btw, I make the same argument when people claim that actions which are clearly xenophobic are racist. Both are bad, but they mean different things, and words should retain their meaning). 

Perhaps just have a few good articles bookmarked that you can link then so it's not as much work? 

To your second point, idk. I'd love to read some recent lit on the subject regarding what affects change more. And as much as you may not like it, you may have to make arguments that make white people not feel as bad as they probably otherwise should. You want to open them up, not close them off, and the latter will never help you achieve your overall goal.

(also, none of those terms fit the scenario at hand, because again they assume Warren had some form of negative view, when she was actually taking pride in her perceived ancestry. Fetishization actually fits it a lot better, and there is a lot of truth in that, not necessarily with her but with a lot of people, especially in our neck of the woods)

A few good articles are not really going to do the work of this kind of education. White Americans know shockingly little about black issues, history, and culture, but that is miles and miles ahead of what they know about indigenous issues, history, and culture. And you can’t understand racism without historical context. That’s why it has to be *at least* a book, which still doesn’t give much to bring people up to speed on the environment this comes out of for indigenous people.

As for you point on what works- we tried that for a couple centuries, hasn’t worked out so well. What I think does have a chance of working we are seeing way more of recently- and that is BIPOC just doing shit themselves. Instead of convincing white voters and politicians, you are seeing more BIPOC seeking positions of power themselves and appealing to members of their own communities. Convincing white people is probably not the answer. The answer lies more in creating coalitions with other communities of color.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Oh, so personal experience is worth something?  You were arguing a couple weeks ago that the Dems shouldn't push for anything in the new relief bill, and instead wait until January.  If you can't see how that confuses people as to your actual goals, or makes some people who are suffering now think that centrists don't care about them, i dont' know what to tell you.  Especially because it looks like we can get more concessions and aid before then, which makes an actual, material difference to real people.  

Go back and read some posts during the last fiscal cliff/ shutdown threads.  It's amazing how willing some people are to throw in the towel.  And remember that during all this incremental change that you worship, all the while, actual people are actually suffering.  The part you put in caps is ironically not the case right now.

Just mirroring your language dude. And careful man, last time you attributed a quote to me that was weeks old you were way off the mark. My stance has always been that they should seek an extension of everything from the previous relief bill through the end of the year. Hopefully then we'll have retaken the WH and Senate, and a much better deal can be reached. That's not a radical position by any means. There's nothing confusing about it either, and in the end it would probably be better overall for most people. 

And never forget, one party cares about everyone while the other just cares about its supporters. Sometimes to help everyone, even if imperfect, means you have to accept something you don't like. Now if those fuckers you're helping would just vote and vote logically, none of this would be an issue......

[Fury Resurrected]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

And never forget, one party cares about everyone while the other just cares about its supporters. Sometimes to help everyone, even if imperfect, means you have to accept something you don't like. Now if those fuckers you're helping would just vote and vote logically, none of this would be an issue......

This is exactly the attitude that makes certain voters prioritize “owning the libs” over anything of actual substance- if you’re still looking for good strategy and pragmatism

[JGP]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yeah about a year ago my parents did the DNA ancestry thing.  I was curious about the results and they both were like "pretty boring."  I was, "so, we're just white?" And they were like "yep."  I don't identify with any European heritage.  I'm simply a white American, may god have mercy on my soul.

Heh. I've identified as a Canadian settler a couple times, and woo, in certain company that can really ruffle feathers lol 

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Just mirroring your language dude. And careful man, last time you attributed a quote to me that was weeks old you were way off the mark. My stance has always been that they should seek an extension of everything from the previous relief bill through the end of the year. Hopefully then we'll have retaken the WH and Senate, and a much better deal can be reached. That's not a radical position by any means. There's nothing confusing about it either, and in the end it would probably be better overall for most people. 

And never forget, one party cares about everyone while the other just cares about its supporters. Sometimes to help everyone, even if imperfect, means you have to accept something you don't like. Now if those fuckers you're helping would just vote and vote logically, none of this would be an issue......

No need to try to spin what you said previously, it's right there on the board.

Would love to know what the bolded is referring to.

 

 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, JEORDHl said:

It would depend o the culture you're identifying with, I'd think

[we're you adopted, or just didn't know your father growing up-- sorry if that's too personal, if so just ignore]

I never knew my father growing up. He didn't want anything to do with me and my mom didn't want me to have anything to do with him. I found out about his family history through ancestry, where another person got a ping with our tree as a 2nd cousin and was all 'who the fuck is this guy'. And then I found out that half of my family fled Lithuania to America due to the pogroms that were starting up - and that was just 100 years ago. 

1 minute ago, JEORDHl said:

Like, my surname is Greek. And I like that I have Greek ancestry. If I went to Greece and claimed to be one of them, would I be welcomed? I don't know. My father's parents weren't both Greek though. My grandmother his side was Welsh and Irish. My grandparents mother's side are France French, pretty much straight up [there's other stuff in there, but not much-- more on this below] If I went to France and claimed [in English, I don't speak French] to be one of them, would they open their arms? Maybe. 

My understanding is that because I'm like 75% Lithuanian, and had a lot of actual familial history there, I would actually be somewhat welcomed back in some way. At least that's what I've gotten from talking with some Lithuanian ancestry folks. 

1 minute ago, JEORDHl said:

My mother's side is a huge French Catholic family. At a family reunion decades ago there were a few teepees [tipi] My family dentist growing up commented on both my mother and my jaw structures and teeth, and said in his experience there was definitely Indigenous ancestry [he said native, more precisely]. If I announced to dozens of Indigenous communities that I was part one of them, would any of them claim me? 

Yeah... no.

It's almost a shame North America is so young we'd [predominantly white people] would rather claim our European [or other] ancestry instead of saying we're simply American, or Canadian.  

I get that - but I think there's a reasonable difference between "I was kind of told that in our family history we might have x" vs "I took a DNA test turns out I'm 100% that dick" - especially when you can say that you are definitely related not just to a generic group of people but literally the Gourleys in Kenosha. 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

36 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

It was a particular book that provided pertinent historical context. Narrowing it down to just one book (that I am 100% sure nobody reading this thread will read anyway) is better than listing several that will not get read either that are more broad.

Don't know how much it will mean to you that a random internet person took your recommendation, but the book you mentioned earlier in the thread looked interesting, and I ordered it. Can't promise it won't sit in my stack of unread books for a little while, but I'm pretty sure it won't end up in the stack of never-read books!

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Pics or it didn't happen.

If I could figure out how to link something on the board, I would. Maybe I can send it to my flickr. 

[Fury Resurrected]

Just now, OnionAhaiReborn said:

Don't know how much it will mean to you that a random internet person took your recommendation, but the book you mentioned earlier in the thread looked interesting, and I ordered it. Can't promise it won't sit in my stack of unread books for a little while, but I'm pretty sure it won't end up in the stack of never-read books!

It actually does mean something to me, thank you 

[DMC]

Just now, Kalibear said:

If I could figure out how to link something on the board, I would. Maybe I can send it to my flickr. 

I mean, if you want sure, be interested to see.  But I was just being a smartass.

[S John]

I think it’s interesting how interested Americans are in genetic ancestry to begin with. I’m surely also guilty of this to an extent, every American loves to go around telling friends that they are a quarter this and a quarter that. In reality, usually they themselves are the only person who actually gives even the slightest shit about that. I think it only really matters if it impacts your lived experience. Like if that ancestry conveys extra melanin, or if you have an actual parent who was, say Polish then that would be a case where being ‘half-Polish’ is something of note that conveys meaningful information about a persons background. Other than that, nobody is going to be impressed that Jim is a quarter Italian if every one of Jim’s grandparents grew up in Cleveland. Only Jim gives a flying fuck about that little bit of trivia.

I understand that this fascination comes from being a nation of immigrants and a given American probably has more varied DNA than your average Norwegian or something, so we might indeed find something unexpected from a DNA test, but it does feel a little bit like folks are mainly wistfully hoping for something cool to pop up in there to impress friends and acquaintances (who will feign interest but not actually give the tiniest shit about your percentage of Irish blood).  I’m sure thousands upon thousands have opened their results and found ninety-five percent Anglo? FUCK! 

[Jace, Extat]

52 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I'd like to be surprised that someone's actually trying to claim racism must be intentional to be so, but if the last couple years have proven anything (hell the last couple of months) it's the that world hasn't progressed nearly as much as we like to think it has. Take people out of their morally superior comfort zone and it's amazing how quickly people will adopt conservative talking points. "So fragile are your truths that you apparently can't stand the sight of mine." This reads like Ben Shapiro going on about snowflakes and how "facts don't care about your feelings".

No self reflection, no actual attempt to counter the point. Let's just accuse the other side of being too emotional and not rational enough.

Christ I'm so glad I grew out of my shitty rational atheist teenager phase.

You know what, that doesn't read well. I'll agree.  Everyone who has been marginalized and preyed upon by supposedly just societies deserves compassion and reconciliation. I don't take well to incessant calls for... I'm not sure what FuryResserected wants, exactly. Other than to tear down what seem to be otherwise well motivated actors. Astute readers might remember that this is what I don't like about some more vociferous Sanders hounds. I get that she is personally offended by Warren. 100%. Got it, what she did was offensive. Where I call foul is this notion that she and her movement were further in the wrong for not knowing or understanding a very personal experience. Warren was told a story and then repeated it until she found out it was a lie, and then she looked stupid for having believed such a lie and acted even more foolish. Offensive to some, absolutely. Also politically irrelevant. I have nothing to say -nothing to say- about explaining why Warren did wrong. I said nothing for some time, you might have noticed, but the devolution from she did something wrong to because someone on the internet explained something to me, a very personal story i had not known, Warren and her entire movement were not only morally bankrupy but also RACIST from the outset, well that was too much for me to stomach. 

Your right to air valid grievances takes you pretty far, until you try to discredit legitimate political movements based on what is, in no unsoftened terms, a politically irrelevant opinion. That's just not the world we live in, and I'm going to say so. If you think I sound like Ben Shapiro because I recognize people and politics are flawed, we can't help each other and that's deeply unfortunate. 

I draw the line at rewriting history I watched unfold. I did mean for that to be offensive in my last post, and that was wrong. Childish even. I apologize for it. 

[Maithanet]

13 minutes ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

Don't know how much it will mean to you that a random internet person took your recommendation, but the book you mentioned earlier in the thread looked interesting, and I ordered it. Can't promise it won't sit in my stack of unread books for a little while, but I'm pretty sure it won't end up in the stack of never-read books!

What book was this again?  This thread is moving very fast. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, S John said:

I think it’s interesting how interested Americans are in genetic ancestry to begin with. I’m surely also guilty of this to an extent, every American loves to go around telling friends that they are a quarter this and a quarter that. In reality, usually they themselves are the only person who actually gives even the slightest shit about that. I think it only really matters if it impacts your lived experience. Like if that ancestry conveys extra melanin, or if you have an actual parent who was, say Polish then that would be a case where being ‘half-Polish’ is something of note that conveys meaningful information about a persons background. Other than that, nobody is going to be impressed that Jim is a quarter Italian if every one of Jim’s grandparents grew up in Cleveland. Only Jim gives a flying fuck about that little bit of trivia.

I understand that this fascination comes from being a nation of immigrants and a given American probably has more varied DNA than your average Norwegian or something, so we might indeed find something unexpected from a DNA test, but it does feel a little bit like folks are mainly wistfully hoping for something cool to pop up in there to impress friends and acquaintances (who will feign interest but not actually give the tiniest shit about your percentage of Irish blood).  I’m sure thousands upon thousands have opened their results and found ninety-five percent Anglo? FUCK! 

About 15 years ago when I lived at the beach I tried to impress some Irish girls working there for the summer by talking about my "Irish" ancestry.  I'd called myself "Irish" for my entire life because that's what I was told.  After a thorough, effective, funny, and public rhetorical dismantling I never even thought about calling myself Irish again. 

 

It is maybe a weird phenomenon, I think there is a general human desire to want to be a part of something, and an having an easily understood or describable part of identity is something that on some level, will be attractive to most people.  At the same time, for white people this is all a fun exercise akin to not much more than astrology.  When if you're central american or Iranian you've likely had experiences with your heritage that aren't just fun and interesting chit chat.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

It's just frustrating that regarding Warren, you'll describe it in just about every conceivable way except racism. I'm not sure what definition you're operating from, but everything you describe about Warren (cultural appropriation, claiming cultural heritage, etc.) are absolutely part of what racism is (and means). 

Do I literally need to define racism for you? 

11 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

A few good articles are not really going to do the work of this kind of education. White Americans know shockingly little about black issues, history, and culture, but that is miles and miles ahead of what they know about indigenous issues, history, and culture. And you can’t understand racism without historical context. That’s why it has to be *at least* a book, which still doesn’t give much to bring people up to speed on the environment this comes out of for indigenous people.

A few good articles won't fully educate just about anyone on anything. However, it's still a good way to get someone interested. Frankly I think a lot of people would find the subject fascinating, assuming they were into learning about history. But that just gets back to my earlier complaint about our education system.

Quote

As for you point on what works- we tried that for a couple centuries, hasn’t worked out so well. What I think does have a chance of working we are seeing way more of recently- and that is BIPOC just doing shit themselves. Instead of convincing white voters and politicians, you are seeing more BIPOC seeking positions of power themselves and appealing to members of their own communities. Convincing white people is probably not the answer. The answer lies more in creating coalitions with other communities of color.

I think you're conflating convincing white people with convincing all white people. No sane person thinks the latter will happen, but white people still make up over 60% of the population, so you can't just ignore that group. 

16 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

No need to try to spin what you said previously, it's right there on the board.

Would love to know what the bolded is referring to.

Then quote it. And the bold was just a reference to if people actually wanted these problems fixed, they'd vote for the party telling them they want to fix them. 

 

[Kalbear]

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, if you want sure, be interested to see.  But I was just being a smartass.

Let's see if this works

 

[Fury Resurrected]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Do I literally need to define racism for you? 

A few good articles won't fully educate just about anyone on anything. However, it's still a good way to get someone interested. Frankly I think a lot of people would find the subject fascinating, assuming they were into learning about history. But that just gets back to my earlier complaint about our education system.

I think you're conflating convincing white people with convincing all white people. No sane person thinks the latter will happen, but white people still make up over 60% of the population, so you can't just ignore that group. 

Then quote it. And the bold was just a reference to if people actually wanted these problems fixed, they'd vote for the party telling them they want to fix them. 

 

On the national level, they do, but on a lot of local levels that BIPOC occupy they definitely do not.

[IheartIheartTesla]

I'm pretty sure I am 100% Tamil Brahmin (quite boring), with maybe some chance of having 'mughal' ancestors, so perhaps a little bit of Central Asia thrown in.

That means I maybe share 50% heritage with Kamala Harris (perhaps the highest on the board), and yet I cant enthuse myself about her based on our tribal identities. She's still way better than many other choices though.