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Floki of the Ironborn

Question about one of Dany's visions in the Undying House

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Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy.

I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something.

I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? 

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Posted (edited)

The naked woman represents the realms of men being torn apart by humans being humans. 
 

ETA: I think there might be an interview or SSM out there somewhere about this? Also, that’s one interpretation, I’ve seen others over the years, including some serious crack pottery, of course. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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29 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy.

I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something.

I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? 

Possibly it is Cersei but not likely.  The two queens are not likely to meet.   But it is either a representation of Westeros being raped by small, petty men like Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Balon Greyjoy, and Renly Baratheon.  It may also be the future of Sansa Stark, raped or used by small men like Littlefinger, Joffrey, Harry, and Tyrion.  Although Sansa is probably not important enough to appear in an apparently important vision of what was, what may, and what could be.  

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3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy.

I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something.

I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? 

You can always try to search for the quote on "a search of a ice and fire"

Quote

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing. (aCoK, Dany IV)

As others mentioned already, the common interpretation of this scene is that it's a symbolical representation of Westeros being ravaged by the war of  5 kings at that time. The issue is that there aren't 5 little men, but 4. On the other hand, while the 5 kings were Robb, Renly, Stannis, Joffrey and Balon (5), by the time Dany has this vision Renly was already dead and only 4 kings were fighting at the time.

An alternative interpretation I remember and I consider possibly valid is how it foreshadows or warns what is about to happen to Dany towards the end of the chapter - four undying trying to ravage Dany herself.

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Westeros = ravaged women has always made the most sense to me. 

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy.

I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. 

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1 hour ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Westeros = ravaged women has always made the most sense to me. 

I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. 

I thought he was being cheeky? :D

 

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4 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. 

I was just trolling, don't worry.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always figured the woman was Westeros being violated by the four kings. Joffrey, Stannis, Robb and Balon. Renly was already dead by the time she had that vision.

The vision was being shown in mostly reverse chronological order.  This naked lady with the dwarves came at the beginning.  So it has to be the present rather than the past.  It cannot be too far into the future though.  Yes, to Joff, Stannis, Robb, and Balon.  It fits with the vision of Westeros told by King Viserys, the Third.  The most beautiful land of all.  

Edited by Prince Rhaego's Soul

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Lusty bitey dwarves appear again in The Forsaken, TWOW:

Spoiler

Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other

I guess them representing warring lords works for both, but I dunno... it always felt too roundabout to me.

In any case, the dwarves have something to do with the shade-of-the-evening drink.

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Those four little dwarfs are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. Robb isn't there, because, first of all, he didn't ravaged Westeros, like the other four did for the power (he participated in the War of the Five Kings to avenge his father, not to get power or to become a King), and second - he was in the next room, at the feast of corpses, with the wolf's head.

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Might be TWOT5Ks, might be yet to happen. As with the vision that is assumed to be the red wedding. 

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5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

What was that about Aegon the unworthy? 

Why'd they show him?

It’s not him, the poster was only joking. 

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those four little dwarfs are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. Robb isn't there, because, first of all, he didn't ravaged Westeros, like the other four did for the power (he participated in the War of the Five Kings to avenge his father, not to get power or to become a King), and second - he was in the next room, at the feast of corpses, with the wolf's head.

Robb rebelled and is equally responsible for the war.  He was one of the little men in that vision.  He was one of the violators.

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17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I was just trolling, don't worry.

 

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s not him, the poster was only joking. 

That’s what I thought at first. I was scared to say “you have to be joking right?” in case you weren’t. Haha

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On 8/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Possibly it is Cersei but not likely.  The two queens are not likely to meet.   But it is either a representation of Westeros being raped by small, petty men like Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Balon Greyjoy, and Renly Baratheon.  It may also be the future of Sansa Stark, raped or used by small men like Littlefinger, Joffrey, Harry, and Tyrion.  Although Sansa is probably not important enough to appear in an apparently important vision of what was, what may, and what could be.  

It is a woman unknown to Daenerys.  But a real woman she was.  These little guys are not seen in Westeros.  The person is important to the story.  Littlefinger and Sansa will have to escape to Braavos if his plans go awry.  Sansa is that naked woman in the near future.  Cersei, Arianne, Margaery, and Val are not coming to Essos.  The woman has to be Sansa or Gillie.  Gillie is on her way to the Bay with Marwyn.  

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