Another Stark Hate Post

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Blind fanatic worshipers of either side. I would have ended up as one if it hadn't been for this thread and so many other factors. Thanks CamRP!

That's precisely the reason why I made this, glad it helped!

(see @Curled Finger it worked! IT WORKED! IT'S ALIVEEEE)

 

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

 Frankly, I've been an asshole when it came to replying to Stark hate speeches. This is both a confession and accusation. On 2nd thoughts, make those plural.

I loved Dany and the Targs as much as I did Jon and the Starks when I joined the Forum. Both parties have flaws, I accept, but a large number of the Dany-Targ fanboys and girls repeatedly posted (and still are posting) irrational hate comments about how Arya is Hannibal Lecter+Ted Bundy, how Bran is as cruel as Ramsay for warging into Hodor (desperate times, desperate actions) and for eating dead NW deserters' flesh and dead wildlings' flesh and wights' flesh while in Summer to survive, how Sansa is the next Cersei, how Rickon is a cannibal for sure (it's still uncertain) and how Jon is evil incarnate, next NK, let Others thru (not even happened yet) the Wall he is protecting after so much sacrifices, broke vows in the cases of Janos, Mance, fArya, poor Bowen and poor Ramsay and whatnot.

Due to the stubborn hope that I could lift the veil of bias from haters, (as stubborn as only a teen could be) I did what they did. My shame. Since they have to justify Jon is evil somehow, they sympathise with misogynistic, psychopathic, slimy scum like Janos, Ramsay, Walder et cetera. About 80% of thses haters are inevitablt Dany/Targ fans (worshipers even). 5% are named Lord of the Crossing/Twins/Lord Frey/Wolfslayer etc. You can't expect unbiased statements from them. The rest 15 % are mostly neutral, but hate a particular Stark like Arya for instance. So I ended up venting my ire on Dany/Targs and such and was even irrational in a few issues. A teen's stupid mistake. But all those irratonal 'grownups' have no such excuses.

I can understand the reason for the 80% (80% of Stark haters being Dany fans and 80% of dany fans being Stark haters) club to act that way. How the abomination ended. All true fans of the books sympathise and empathise with them. A Stark ending up as King of 6Ks (weak attempt at democracy) while North seperated and had a Queen (and a really obnoxius snob at that) was not to anyone's liking. And Dany going mad, getting killed by her love (who isn't killed for it), 2 dragons dying, Targs ending all may cause hatred of Starks and Jon. But not an excuse for irrationality.

Yeah, sometimes it's hard not to be an asshole when someone is being an asshole, but we need to try tho, once you realize, say sorry, and stop doing it, all is forgiven <3

 

Quote

5% are named Lord of the Crossing/Twins/Lord Frey/Wolfslayer etc. You can't expect unbiased statements from them.

Well "The Last Wolf" is a pretty telling name too

[Azarial]

As someone who has wanted to discuss various plots and found the irrational beliefs of one or the other groups so frustrating, I get it. And sometimes you can get a 99% of the time rational person on a bad day/days and it can spiral. This happened to me very recently (don't read the forums when sick with the stomach flu and in a bad mood, not that I attacked a character just had no patience for polarizing debates, or my words being ignored and or twisted and snapped) So it would take repeat actions for me to hold it against someone, since a bad thread can happen to anyone. 

That said when I first joined I wanted to participate in threads about my non favorite characters to find out why people liked them, what themes I was missing etc. I found a Sansa thread and asked. They nicely explained and pointed out a bunch of stuff that non Sansa fans often miss or misinterpret. It was great, I now have a much greater appreciation for Sansa (and her fans).

I went to a Dany thread and it was a very thinly veiled Jon hate thread, none of them were discussing Dany as a character just going Jon sucks so clearly Dany is better and Jon should stay dead or come back to life to die again. I couldn't find any thread discussing Dany's merits independent of comparing her to other characters in way intended to trash all other characters and their fans. This is a big forum, so not being able to find a single thread is telling of the mentality of her fans at the time I joined.

I then went to a Jon thread and we were discussing stuff and the Dany fans turned up and made countless petty remarks that contradicted the text and derailed the thread. Went to another thread, same thing, Arya thread, same thing. There was a thread where some Dany fans ganged up on a Sam fan, and began praising Randyl Tarly. 

I took a break, a long break as this whole forum seemed toxic, came back and the incident above happened following a pattern I'll discuss later.  And the main difference now is that lots of the Stark fans that used to be calm, and ignore it have lost their patience and are striking back, but instead of attacking their arguments they attack with the same emotional lashing out that was used against any non Dany fan in the past.

And what the newer Dany fans on the forums don't know is that it took years of goading by the long term Dany fans to get it to this point. We couldn't have a single thread about a character without certain people showing up and posting BS hate posts, the same stuff over and over, thread after thread for years. It contradicts the text and it is pointed out, they would ignore and post again.  It's way off topic, to bad, they post it over and over. Then other people come and post the same stuff that was already proven false in that very thread.

Now stark fans are doing this back. And regardless of who's doing it, it prevents discussion of the text and spirals into defensiveness. The people that do this on both sides know that if you mock a person they either defend themselves or their arguments won't be taken seriously by others on the thread. But if the person responds the attacker will twist their words and derail the thread. Or the person being insulted will walk away and it looks like the rude person was right. It's a deliberate way to derail a thread and discredit the person being attacked, and the first post is normally passive aggressive, so not outright rude, just rude enough to get a response but not get flagged by mods. This false debate toxicity is a huge issue one here as it can spiral very quickly. 

Are Dany fans toxic, yep. 

Are Stark fans becoming toxic, yep. 

Does it drive me nuts as I just want to objectively discuss the text, yep. 

[El Guapo]

24 minutes ago, Azarial said:

As someone who has wanted to discuss various plots and found the irrational beliefs of one or the other groups so frustrating, I get it. And sometimes you can get a 99% of the time rational person on a bad day/days and it can spiral. This happened to me very recently (don't read the forums when sick with the stomach flu and in a bad mood, not that I attacked a character just had no patience for polarizing debates, or my words being ignored and or twisted and snapped) So it would take repeat actions for me to hold it against someone, since a bad thread can happen to anyone. 

That said when I first joined I wanted to participate in threads about my non favorite characters to find out why people liked them, what themes I was missing etc. I found a Sansa thread and asked. They nicely explained and pointed out a bunch of stuff that non Sansa fans often miss or misinterpret. It was great, I now have a much greater appreciation for Sansa (and her fans).

I went to a Dany thread and it was a very thinly veiled Jon hate thread, none of them were discussing Dany as a character just going Jon sucks so clearly Dany is better and Jon should stay dead or come back to life to die again. I couldn't find any thread discussing Dany's merits independent of comparing her to other characters in way intended to trash all other characters and their fans. This is a big forum, so not being able to find a single thread is telling of the mentality of her fans at the time I joined.

I then went to a Jon thread and we were discussing stuff and the Dany fans turned up and made countless petty remarks that contradicted the text and derailed the thread. Went to another thread, same thing, Arya thread, same thing. There was a thread where some Dany fans ganged up on a Sam fan, and began praising Randyl Tarly. 

I took a break, a long break as this whole forum seemed toxic, came back and the incident above happened following a pattern I'll discuss later.  And the main difference now is that lots of the Stark fans that used to be calm, and ignore it have lost their patience and are striking back, but instead of attacking their arguments they attack with the same emotional lashing out that was used against any non Dany fan in the past.

And what the newer Dany fans on the forums don't know is that it took years of goading by the long term Dany fans to get it to this point. We couldn't have a single thread about a character without certain people showing up and posting BS hate posts, the same stuff over and over, thread after thread for years. It contradicts the text and it is pointed out, they would ignore and post again.  It's way off topic, to bad, they post it over and over. Then other people come and post the same stuff that was already proven false in that very thread.

Now stark fans are doing this back. And regardless of who's doing it, it prevents discussion of the text and spirals into defensiveness. The people that do this on both sides know that if you mock a person they either defend themselves or their arguments won't be taken seriously by others on the thread. But if the person responds the attacker will twist their words and derail the thread. Or the person being insulted will walk away and it looks like the rude person was right. It's a deliberate way to derail a thread and discredit the person being attacked, and the first post is normally passive aggressive, so not outright rude, just rude enough to get a response but not get flagged by mods. This false debate toxicity is a huge issue one here as it can spiral very quickly. 

Are Dany fans toxic, yep. 

Are Stark fans becoming toxic, yep. 

Does it drive me nuts as I just want to objectively discuss the text, yep. 

This post is comical.  You could not go into a Dany thread in years past without people going in there and just trashing it.  I can't even recall how many threads had to be locked by the moderators because of this toxicity.  It was so bad that many Dany fans had to leave this forum and start their own message board because of it .

 

But yes it is the poor Stark/Jon fonboys and fangirls who have been  oppressed.  

[Azarial]

16 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

This post is comical.  You could not go into a Dany thread in years past without people going in there and just trashing it.  I can't even recall how many threads had to be locked by the moderators because of this toxicity.  It was so bad that many Dany fans had to leave this forum to another message board because of it .

 

But yes it is the poor Stark/Jon fonboys and fangirls who have been  oppressed.  

Depends on when doesn't it?

Hatred swings like a pendulum. If you joined when anti Dany fans attacked doesn't mean I didn't join 6m-1y later when the anti Stark fans attacked. My post isn't comical at all it's simply a demonstration of a systemic issue that impacts both sides. What I said about when I joined was fact. The pendulum was swung to Stark hate. It's currently swinging back toward Dany hate but right now is pretty much in the middle with equal hate on both sides. 

Pretending this issue is one sided is false. And mocking the other side just because you've seen more of the other side is disingenuous. Many threads about Starks have been locked for the same reason, to imply otherwise is dishonest.  I left for almost 2y because of the extreme Stark hate and toxicity on here and stated as much are you saying I'm lying? Do you honestly think Dany fans are the only ones? Or does it only count when it supports your argument? People have left on both sides, threads have been shut on both sides. Hate and toxicity goes both ways. And you will see it most on whatever threads are about your favorite character, because you will naturally frequent those threads the most.

[El Guapo]

7 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Depends on when doesn't it?

Hatred swings like a pendulum. If you joined when anti Dany fans attacked doesn't mean I didn't join 6m-1y later when the anti Stark fans attacked. My post isn't comical at all it's simply a demonstration of a systemic issue that impacts both sides. What I said about when I joined was fact. The pendulum was swung to Stark hate. It's currently swinging back toward Dany hate but right now is pretty much in the middle with equal hate on both sides. 

Pretending this issue is one sided is false. And mocking the other side just because you've seen more of the other side is disingenuous. Many threads about Starks have been locked for the same reason, to imply otherwise is dishonest.  left for almost 2y because of the extreme Stark hate and toxicity on here and stated as much are you saying I'm lying? Do you honestly think Dany fans are the only ones? Or does it only count when it supports your argument? people have left on both sides, threads, threads have been shut on both sides. Hate and toxicity goes both ways. And you will see it most on whatever your favorite character is, because you will naturally frequent those threads the most.

Sorry it is comical. You saying that the Stark/Jon fans have lost all patience and are now striking back is comedy gold. They are not now striking back, they have always been striking for years and years. This is nothing new. They are not an oppressed bunch who are now forced to attack. lol

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Well "The Last Wolf" is a pretty telling name too

Wolves are my favorite animals since I was 2/3

[CamiloRP]

44 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Wolves are my favorite animals since I was 2/3

hahaha it was a joke

[CamiloRP]

@El Guapo @Azarial here we go again, let's keep it civil dudes, the problem isn't people hating on Starks or people hating on Dany, the problem is people hating on people, Dany hate, Stark hate, and anti-Stark hate and anti-Dany hate are just different faces of the same problem.

There is a lot of Dany hate, that has nothing to do with the Starks. 

There is a lot of Stark hate, that has nothing to do with Dany.

Azarial is saying they found the Stark hate too much to bear, so they left the forum. That doesn't mean he's saying Dany hate isn't real or anything.

[Daeron the Daring]

I am proud of being a Targaryen fan, but why can't I like the Starks then? 

I think the least you should give to every character and "faction" is respect, even if you do not like or even hate them.

I mean, I do not like the Baratheons, the Wildlings (with a few exception) and the Tyrells(with the faith exception of Olenna, and I still hope for Garlan getting more attention ), but I respect them as I have to respect a fictional character.

Also, I do think the Targaryen v Stark rivalry and mockery comes from the R+L=J thing. I probably don't have to explain you guys why.

[broken one]

targ fans, the internet hooligans

[talvikorppi]

On 10/6/2020 at 6:56 AM, Van Gogh said:

I hope you're not in denial.  Most of the childish behavior on this forum are coming from the anti-Daenerys people. 

And I give you exhibit A. Irrational behaviour steeped in fanboying/girling.

[GoldenGail3]

wew lads. thats all i gotta say,

[Springwatch]

On 10/5/2020 at 9:33 PM, CamiloRP said:

Sansa, what she did to her family in KL was awful, yet she didn't know what she was doing, she didn't know what would happen, she was just a teenage girl rebelling against his father who didn't let her be with who she """loved""". In any other story that would make her a hero. She's the one who has me worried the most, she has been manipulated no stop, and she's not herself anymore, I fear what comes of her story. Sansa has done a lot of bad things, but she's still a teenager, we all made stupid shit as teenagers, and most of us weren't manipulated by grade A psychos.

She was just a little girl rebelling against her father. She knew nothing of any value to Cersei, who has the Starks under surveillance since Day 1. Cersei's actions were driven solely by the death of Robert.

The bad things - she was mean to her little sister. She was snobbish. She loved Joff and Cersei for their beauty and position, ignoring the danger signs. Her mannerisms were incredibly annoying. But she has learned some big lessons.

Alayne doesn't seem too bad a persona (though over-generous with the sweetsleep); and Sansa can still be Sansa when she needs to. I think she'll be ok.

On 10/5/2020 at 10:18 PM, Angel Eyes said:

• • Similarly, Sansa Stark, Catelyn's daughter, is largely defined by her naivety and ignorance in the first book, and forever characterized as Too Dumb to Live and Horrible Judge of Character. Granted she did make some idiotic mistakes, chief among them believing Joffrey was her prince charming, betraying her father's escape plans to Cersei and not backing up Arya about Joffrey attacking the butcher's boy. (Which gets the boy and Sansa's own direwolf killed). However fans seems to forget she was only an eleven year old girl coming from a sheltered upbringing, with parents who totally failed to prepare her for the dangers of court. Despite the subsequent hell she goes through, and becoming much savvier and less idealistic, the vitriol against her is worse than that against some villains. Her case isn't helped by being a Foil for her little sister Arya, a scrappy, tomboyish underdog who manages to be a better judge of character than her parents and older siblings put together, and is frequently bullied by Sansa.

This is quite good; I must read more. The usual wrong things are still wrong: 'betraying her father's escape plans'  (father was staying; it wasn't an escape, just a normal, not-a-secret journey; and even if Sansa told Cersei these things, it could make no difference whatsoever). Also backing up Arya story of Mycah would just have confirmed Arya's guilt (that's how it is; the rules of aristocracy are not fair). And don't think a bit of name calling counts as 'frequently bullied' (Arya gives as good as she gets, anyway).

I never meant to argue on the internet about a fictional character; but what can I say? Sansa needs a lot of defending. It's only fair that she gets it.

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She was just a little girl rebelling against her father. She knew nothing of any value to Cersei, who has the Starks under surveillance since Day 1. Cersei's actions were driven solely by the death of Robert.

The bad things - she was mean to her little sister. She was snobbish. She loved Joff and Cersei for their beauty and position, ignoring the danger signs. Her mannerisms were incredibly annoying. But she has learned some big lessons.

Alayne doesn't seem too bad a persona (though over-generous with the sweetsleep); and Sansa can still be Sansa when she needs to. I think she'll be ok.

Yes, that's what I said in that quote

[MissM]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Also backing up Arya story of Mycah would just have confirmed Arya's guilt (that's how it is; the rules of aristocracy are not fair). And don't think a bit of name calling counts as 'frequently bullied' (Arya gives as good as she gets, anyway).

I never meant to argue on the internet about a fictional character; but what can I say? Sansa needs a lot of defending. It's only fair that she gets it.

It's bullying full stop. Why do you need to diminish the effect it had on Arya? Sansa along with Jeyne taunted Arya to the point where Arya was convinced she was ugly and possibly a bastard. She had enough difficulty handling her mother and Septa but to be bullied in front of other people too (Theon hears Sansa making fun of Arya's appearance). Arya was so young and already had a self-image complex that carried throughout her asoiaf journey so far. Why does that not matter to you considering how sensitive you are to everything Sansa? What did Arya do to deserve to be bullied over her appearance? Imagine justifying that. Later because she tried to SAVE an innocent boy: she loses her direwolf, feels guilty over Mycah/lady's deaths and is told she should've been killed instead of Lady...etc.

All the way to ADWD, Arya still has Horseface running through her mind. It'll be so good if Arya gets to experience more positive female influences in the coming books to override the shit she had to endure from her childhood bullies and her mom/Septa. 

[Springwatch]

5 minutes ago, MissM said:

It's bullying full stop. Why do you need to diminish the effect it had on Arya? Sansa along with Jeyne taunted Arya to the point where Arya was convinced she was ugly and possibly a bastard. She had enough difficulty handling her mother and Septa but to be bullied in front of other people too (Theon hears Sansa making fun of Arya's appearance). Arya was so young and already had a self-image complex that carried throughout her asoiaf journey so far. Why does that not matter to you considering how sensitive you are to everything Sansa? What did Arya do to deserve to be bullied over her appearance? Imagine justifying that. Later because she tried to SAVE an innocent boy: she loses her direwolf, feels guilty over Mycah/lady's deaths and is told she should've been killed instead of Lady...etc.

All the way to ADWD, Arya still has Horseface running through her mind. It'll be so good if Arya gets to experience more positive female influences in the coming books to override the shit she had to endure from her childhood bullies and her mom/Septa. 

I can't see any effect it had on Arya. She was stressed and upset in the sewing room under the eye of Mordane, but once out of there, it all melts away. She has supreme self-confidence - she felt no qualms about snubbing the queen's invitation to the wheelhouse. She assumes leadership in many situations. She's a baby alpha wolf - she pretty terrific in many ways. Yoren's boys found her intimidating, even.

Arya's anxieties are largely created by Septa Mordane, on top of her parents' expectations that she grow up into a proper lady. These anxieties don't hold her back.

I can't make myself believe squabbles with Sansa had any impact all - she doesn't really look up to Sansa (nor should she); she only sees that Sansa is praised while she herself is neglected. It's natural, but not fair, that she feels angry with Sansa for this.

And yes, Arya gives as good as she gets. How many people has she called stupid? How many times has she thumped Sansa?

[Azarial]

18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 

The bad things - she was mean to her little sister. 

 

Oh, this was one of the best things I learned from my very polite Sansa fan interrogation  Sansa didn't, it was Jeyne Poole, who likely was jealous of Arya. If you think of it, not with Arya's bias as it's presented, she covers for her to try and keep her out of trouble with the Septa, Jeyne is the one that calls her horse face not Sansa, her fear of Cersei and knowing that she would be married to Jeof are why she played dumb, and because Arya training with sticks to use a sword wouldn't have been taken seriously anyway. Plus there was nothing she could do at the point they called on her to change Mycah's fate the men were already sent out long before with no cell phones to reach them and alter the orders, so taking sides would only serve to place her in a bad situation. But even then she wouldn't go as far as lying, she just avoided taking sides. The worst thing she did was gloat about becoming queen. But, that is a very age appropriate thing to do. And apparently she's bad at keeping secrets, but that means Ned was the one who messed up by telling her in advance since this appears to be common knowledge. 

Arya perceives it as Sansa being mean because Sansa's attempt to change the subject and distract the Septa only partially worked and she views Jeyne and Sansa as a set. But if you look at Sansa's actions and separate what Jeyne does from what Sansa does, and think on what she actually did she wasn't being judged fairly by Arya. Quite fitting when paired with Arya's arc being about learning to see the truth, the only way for her to have this arc is if she was wrong about some of her assumptions in the beginning.  Like we are shown with the hound. From what we are shown of Sansa, from everyone but Arya, is that she is to polite, and to naïve, we're never shown her being mean to anyone until after her life falls apart, and even then it's defiance more so than cruelty in intent, and she feels bad later. 

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/5/2020 at 3:33 PM, CamiloRP said:

Bran's skinchanging of Hodor is disgusting an akin to rape, but he's a broken little boy, he doesn't know better, I think GRRM and TCOTF are shaping him to be a villain, but for now he's just a boy, he's not evil, tho some things he does are fucked up, and it's okay to point it out.

Disturbingly, Bran may have also considered raping Meera via Hodor.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Disturbingly, Bran may have also considered raping Meera via Hodor.

whaaa..? please explain

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

whaaa..? please explain

Heh, well admittedly rape may be too strong.  

Quote

To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor’s skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels.

It’s doubtful that Bran really thought it through.  Other than he may be having feelings for Meera that were going beyond friendship.  Which is why he felt strange about the idea of using Hodor to hold her (and pet her and name her George  for anyone who gets this reference)