HBO Planning Dunk and Egg, Other Thrones-properties

[The Bard of Banefort]

. . . where else would they be filming?

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

. . . where else would they be filming?

London has plenty of stage space, and there may have been some logic to being close to HotD to maybe share some sets, props, costumes, etc. more easily.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I keep hearing people say that the next two DnE books (She-Wolves and Village Hero) are basically done but just need to be edited. Is there any truth to this or is it just a fandom urban legend?

Edited November 10, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[Ran]

Urban legend, as far as I know. The "She-Wolves" story was pretty far along, but I think "The Village Hero" isn't more than a rough outline in George's head.

Maybe George has advanced on them, but no one in the fandom would know it unless he made a public statement, and then everyone else would be able to point to it.

[The Bard of Banefort]

George uses a lot of foreshadowing in his books, so I always wondered if there is something in She-Wolves that would spoil Winds, and that’s why he shelved it.

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

George uses a lot of foreshadowing in his books, so I always wondered if there is something in She-Wolves that would spoil Winds, and that’s why he shelved it.

GRRM said that the story wasn't finished, but the anthology it was meant for had to be published in time, so he contributed the abridged version of the Dance.

[The Dragon Demands]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Urban legend, as far as I know. The "She-Wolves" story was pretty far along, but I think "The Village Hero" isn't more than a rough outline in George's head.

Maybe George has advanced on them, but no one in the fandom would know it unless he made a public statement, and then everyone else would be able to point to it.

I can’t just give up on hope, like Brooks did.

[The Bard of Banefort]

This might make me a traitor, but I would be perfectly fine with GRRM taking a break from Winds to write more DnE, the same way he stopped writing Winds to focus on the Dance (he more or less confirmed that FnB was written to get ahead of HOTD). And I’m willing to bet that I’m not the only one who feels this way.

If the DnE show is a hit, I could see them deciding to end it mid-way, like with Egg becoming king. It would avoid another tragic ending, and let’s be real, no one is going to want to watch an elderly Dunk & Egg. It didn’t work with Indiana Jones, and in that case, they still had the same actor.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:57 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

This might make me a traitor, but I would be perfectly fine with GRRM taking a break from Winds to write more DnE, the same way he stopped writing Winds to focus on the Dance (he more or less confirmed that FnB was written to get ahead of HOTD). And I’m willing to bet that I’m not the only one who feels this way.

Part of me is more excited for F&B 2 than Winds at this point, but I don’t know if that’s just cope / hopelessness for the main series being furthered. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Kit attended a con over the weekend where he apparently confirmed that even though he’d still like to do the Snow show, it’s not currently going forward. He didn’t say why, but if other interviews he’s done are any indication, I’m thinking that whatever he had in mind was probably much more introspective and less exciting than what HBO was hoping for. It sounded like he wanted to focus on Jon struggling with his demons.

[The Dragon Demands]

I'm sorry I can't start a separate thread about this, but as a pure thought experiment while on the train I tried to work out what the future "Phases" of the World of Westeros Cinematic Universe will look like (obviously Phase 1 is the most accurate). 

This is an extrapolation from several rules:

• HBO shouldn't put out more than 3 live-action projects in a single calendar year, or risk oversaturation. Even Star Wars and Marvel rarely do this (discounting Marvel's post-pandemic year backlog). 
• There are different SCALES of project: a "flagship show" in the 5 to 7 season range doesn't count as much as having one-shot limited series, i.e. "House of the Dragon" is a flagship show, while "Young Corlys" might be a high budgeted one-shot. Dunk & Egg is also a bit different in that the scale is much smaller, but it could run for up to 12 seasons (I think the second half should merge with Young Tywin bringing it up to 14). But a long-form special effects heavy series isn't the same as some of the shorter or less dragon-heavy ones. 
• A "flagship show" isn't going to be cranked out every 12 months anymore, like Game of Thrones Seasons 1 to 6. Even late Game of Thrones couldn't keep up with that pace. MOST major TV shows these days come out roughly every year and a half or more. So as a rough guess, I'm functionally going with a year and a half turnaround time for flagship shows. Dunk & Egg, in contrast, they openly stated they want to put out in consecutive years, because it's easier to make. 
• Thus each "Phase" (defined as the run of a flagship show, supplemented by one or two shorter one-shots) for a flagship show of 5 TV Seasons lasts around 7 years.
• Out of universe, this means it takes maybe 7 years to run a 5 TV season show start to finish. Most of the potential flagships happen to be about 5 seasons. 
• Some story ideas are direct sequels to others and can't air before them, i.e. Regency era after Dance of the Dragons, First Blackfyre Rebellion after Regency era show. 

Conclusion: at the rate of 3 or so shows airing per year, there's enough material for THREE "Phases" lasting roughly another 20 years. "Phase 1" ends in 2029. Phase 4 begins in the early 2040s....at which point there might be serious discussion about rebooting a more faithful ASOIAF adaptation. 

Ideas floating around now include:

• Dance of the Dragons (House of the Dragon) - potentially 5 seasons
  • Regency show as a direct sequel, smaller scale and maybe 3 to 4 seasons
• Targaryen Conquest - a perhaps 5 season show covering the Conquest, First Dornish War, and then Sons of the Dragon era. Rumor is HBO wants to do "Season 1" as a high budgeted theatrically released movie, on the War of Conquest itself. 
• "First Blackfyre Rebellion" - a maybe 5 season show leading out from the Regency show, starting with the reigns of Aegon III's sons, continuing through the reign of his nephew Aegon the Unworthy, and culminating in the civil war between Aegon the Unworthy's sons. Which of course happens right before Dunk & Egg...
• Dunk & Egg part 1 - through Novella 7 with the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, a natural stopping point. There aren't time skips before that, but after the seventhy there's a 12 year time skip during Maekar's reign in which not much happens. 7 seasons, but short seasons.
  • Dunk & Egg Part 2 - starts with Egg being crowned, but overlaps so much with "Young Tywin and the Reyne Rebellion" they should be combined into one TV show. Dunk & Egg themselves would die at Summerhall in Season 5, but the story would continue with Season 6 as the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and Season 7 the Reyne Rebellion, ending with Tywin made Hand of the King to young King Aerys II...
• Ten Thousand Ships - Nymeria and the Rhoynar. In active development.
• The Sea Snake - The Nine Voyages of Discovery by Young Corlys Velaryon (setting up other spinoffs outside Westeros).
• Doom of Valyria - a flagship show in the 5 to 7 season range starting about a century before the Doom covering the civil wars leading up to it in the final season. Pitched by Max Borenstein.
  • Century of Blood - if popular enough, a direct sequel to Doom of Valyria about the surviving Valyrian colonies - nice narrative "sandbox" with cultural info from World book but specific intrigues up to new writers; also the era of the Dothraki invasions.
• Animated projects on Yi Ti, perhaps Summer Isles, etc.

Phase One (2022 - 2029)

Assuming that House of the Dragon seasons come out every year and a half, and that they're actively discussing going for five seasons in all, the schedule looks like this:

• Fall 2022 - House of the Dragon Season 1
• Summer 2024 - HotD 2
• Spring 2026 - HotD 3
• Fall 2027 - HotD 4
• Spring 2029 - HotD 5

HOWEVER, HBO has said they want to make the first 3 Dunk & Egg novella adaptations in consecutive years, as they are shorter and smaller scale. It's probably two shows, with the first half ending with Story 7 - Third Blackfyre Rebellion...BUT because the later novellas aren't finished, they might go on break for a year or so after that (or take longer breaks between seasons)....we only reliably know when the first three are coming out. Overlapping this with HotD, we can reasonably guess:

• Summer 2024 - HotD 2
• Spring to Summer 2025 - Dunk & Egg 1
• Spring 2026 - HotD 3
• Summer 2026 - Dunk & Egg 2
• Summer 2027 - Dunk & Egg 3
• Fall 2027 - HotD 4
• ?????
• Spring 2029 - HotD 5

As for that gap in 2028, Dunk & Egg might go on break before doing She-Wolves of Winterfell. 

But they're also actively discussing Young Corlys and Nymeria. Young Corlys seems like a one-shot, and Nymeria 3 short seasons at most (Fall of the Rhoynar, Voyages in the Summer Sea a la the Aeneid, then conquest of Dorne). 

Corlys and Nymeria could fill in those gaps, particularly in 2028, but still keeping to the rule "no more than 3 live action shows in one 12 month calendar year". 

We don't THINK Young Corlys or Nymeria will film in 2024....so they'd be filming in 2025, airing in 2026 at the EARLIEST.

Thus at a rough guess....two years from now is when we could start tripling up. 

If I was in charge? (ha).....Young Corlys to fill the gap in Fall 2026 as a one and done, then Nymeria in 2028. 

 

to be continued...

 

[The Dragon Demands]

So my tentative guess at Phase One is this:

Phase One (2022 - 2029)

• Summer 2024 - HotD 2
• Spring to Summer 2025 - Dunk & Egg 1
• Spring 2026 - HotD 3
• Summer 2026 - Dunk & Egg 2
• Fall 2026 - Young Corlys?
• Summer 2027 - Dunk & Egg 3
• Fall 2027 - HotD 4
• 2028 - Nymeria?
• Spring 2029 - HotD 5

2029 is where things get heavy.....

Phase Two (2029 - 2035)

A "Targaryen Conquest" show would follow HotD as the new "flagship" show...while a Regency era sequel would also continue albeit on a smaller scale. BUT HBO kind of wants to treat Conquest Season 1 as a theatrical movie. Meanwhile, Dunk & Egg would continue apace. Thus 2029 would look something like:

• Spring 2025: HotD 5, final season
• Summer 2025 - Targaryen Conquest theatrical movie
• Fall 2029 - Dunk & Egg 4 or 5 (depending on if they have a gap)

Thus "Phase Two" overall would generally look like:

• Targaryen Conquest through death of Maegor (5 seasons, with Season 1 turned into a theatrical movie)
• "Regency era" direct sequel to the Dance, lasting 3 or 4 seasons
• Dunk & Egg 4 through 7
• Possibly the second and third Nymeria seasons alternating in

Phase Three (2035 - 2042)

• "Conquest of Dorne through First Blackfyre Rebellion" should be one long 5 season show, but can only be made after the Regency show ends, thus it's Phase Three.  By its end this bridges the gap to Dunk & Egg 1.
• "The second half of Dunk & Egg overlapping with Young Tywin and the Reyne Rebellion" show follows into this Phase: Dunk & Egg die at the end of Season 5 but it continues through Season 7 with the Reyne Rebellion and Tywin being made Hand of the King (seasons air annually due to smaller scale, not year and a half turnaround).
• Possibly a short special or pair of TV movies covering the reign of Jaehaerys I, as a bridge between the Conquest show and House of the Dragon. Not a major project.
• Doom of Valyria - flagship show in the five to seven season range. Fills the need that neither First Blackfyre Rebellion nor Late Dunk & Egg have dragons in them.

Phase Four (2042 - )

• By this point, ALL of history from Targaryen Conquest up to Tywin as Hand of the King has been covered.
• MIGHT want to do Century of Blood as a direct sequel to Doom of Valyria.
• Andal Invasions only works as an anthology.
• ....GRRM doesn't want to do Robert's Rebellion, and even if you DID, it would at BEST be a 2 to 3 season project. Chronologically we wouldn't even consider it until this point leading out from seeing young Aerys II.

If they were going to consider an ASOIAF reboot adaptation more faithful to the books, it could happen no sooner than the early 2040s....20 years after Game of Thrones ended. Even DISCUSSING a new reboot before the late 2030s is absurd (I've had to talk down people who seriously thought by 2020, "will HBO announce a reboot soon?" - it's not like rebooting a movie series). 

By this point we'd have exhausted most historical eras in Westeros as well as locations outside of it....further emphasizing the need for an ASOIAF reboot in the 10 to 12 season range (think of it as 3 separate shows back to back). 

This doesn't include animated projects or specials.

Still....3 live-action shows airing per calendar year, we won't run out for maybe 20 years.

Realistically, I only expect you guys to take my chart of "Phase One" seriously - beyond that it's too far to guess.

But around 2029 there's going to be a changeover from House of the Dragon to Targaryen Conquest and a Regency show. 

For the next 5 years we're looking at House of the Dragon, Dunk & Egg, and perhaps filling gaps with Young Corlys and Nymeria.

Edited November 19, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Dragon Demands]

Yes, it was in the news due to this new GRRM interview clip posted 12 hours ago:

Edited November 19, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Bard of Banefort]

Debbie Downer here, but I don’t think GOT should or even can be a cinematic (TV) universe. Firstly, there’s not enough written material. Egg is only on year 11 of his 59-years-long life. The only other eras GRRM has written in detail are Jaehaerys’ reign, which has no central conflict, and the Conquest, which is just the Targaryens steamrolling over everyone else. The Conquest makes for good lore, but it’s not a great story on its own, which is probably why they keep trying and failing to write a script for it.

The other option is to take a basic premise (i.e. Nymeria) and try to find writers that can build a compelling story out of an outline. It’s not impossible, but as we already saw with GOT, it’s a big risk.

If George is able to crank out more supplementary material, there may be a greater basis for more projects, but the guy is 75 years old, and he’s pretty opaque about his writing process. He says he’s writing something, but that’s about all we can deduce from him.

[$erPounce]

Honestly, I see little potential for the Game of Thrones Cinematic Universe. I think HBO very much overestimates how many people are actually interested in new shows within the setting of Westeros.

I feel like the vast majority of viewers are not really eager for prequels to Game of Thrones. On the Internet, I see a lot more positive coverage of the potential Jon Snow spin-off than the rest. I have often heard from non-book readers that they would have preferred a spin-off show featuring a fan-favorite GOT character (like Arya and Tyrion) to something like House of the Dragon. The people in that group who did see HOTD were constantly looking for references and similarities to GOT and weren't paying as much attention outside of that - so they barely understood anything about the show. I think many are quickly going to lose interest in a show that is not or barely related to the original Game of Thrones show.

Despite that, I am curious to see how the Dunk & Egg show will be received in the end by the general public. I think it will do fairly well, considering it is a more straightforward show. Moreover, Arya's road trip story with the Hound during season 4 was very popular and in the Dunk & Egg show we can expect something similar. In addition, we will have cameos from existing GOT characters, such as Barristan and Aemon.

I am far from sure that the success of the other shows outside Jon Snow and Dunk & Egg is guaranteed (although I believe "Ten Thousand Ships" and "Empire of Ash" have very high story potential). One of the problems that many potential GOT prequels are likely to have is that timeskips are unavoidable. Casual watchers reacted very negatively to this during HOTD and struggled with it. A viewing audience of only book fans, however, is not large enough to make such expensive shows feasible. 

An animated adaptation of George's book "The Ice Dragon" is also planned. It is not set in the setting of ASOIAF (George confirmed that), but the book was nevertheless promoted by publishers as something set in that world (to capitalize on the success of the GOT show?). I wouldn't be surprised if HBO/Warnermedia will integrate the film adaptation into the "GOT Cinematic Universe" as well.

Edited November 19, 2023 by $erPounce

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:00 AM, The Dragon Demands said:

Young Corlys to fill the gap in Fall 2026 as a one and done

Doesn’t a single season seem a little brief for 9 Voyages?

[The Dragon Demands]

19 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Doesn’t a single season seem a little brief for 9 Voyages?

there's not a lot of source material

[Annara Snow]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:51 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

George mentioned a stage play called The Iron Throne in his latest Notablog post. Is this the same as the Harrenhal play? It’s an odd title choice if it is.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

Well, he says it is - and that The Iron Throne is a temporary title (fortunately) till they come up with something better.

[Tyrion2024]

George mentioned that a couple of animated series might be close to taking the next step in his Notablog from yesterday.

Quote

As it happens, HBO and I have our own animated projects, set in the world of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE.   None of them have been greenlit yet, but I think we are getting close to taking the next step with a couple of them.   When this last round of development started a few years back, we had four ideas for animated shows, with some great talents attached.   Writers rooms and summits, outline and scripts followed in due course… but, alas, two of the original projects were subsequently shelved.

Quote

Work on the other two animated projects continues apace, however…and meanwhile, we have moved NINE VOYAGES, our series about the legendary voyages of the Sea Snake, over from live action to animation.   A move I support fully.   Budgetary constraints would likely have made a live action version prohibitively expensive, what with half the show taking place at sea, and the necessity of creating a different port every week, from Driftmark to Lys to the Basilisk Isles to Volantis to Qarth to… well, on and on and on.   There’s a whole world out there.  And we have a lot better chance of showing it all with animation.   So we now have three animated projects underway.

 

[Le Cygne]

Well, I am excited about a Dunk and Egg series, and I wasn't about other shows. There are different sorts of viewers out there.

D and E is more my kind of show.

It makes you think, while at the same time, there's laughter and a lightening of the spirit that even in difficult times, there's friendship and courage.

I like that GRRM went there with a more classic storytelling feel to these adventures, and think it would translate quite well to the screen.

(Live action for this one!)

Edited January 3 by Le Cygne