What Tyrion's dream is confirming?

[Daeron the Daring]

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That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

So, Tyrion had this dream on his journey with Illyrio, when he knew nothing about Griff, Young Griff (Aegon), Barristan being in Meereen, or the Golden Company supporting the Targaryen restoration.

So what does this dream confirm?

-What is Bittersteel simbolyzing? The Golden Company, or Aegon? Or something else?

-Aegon being a descendant of Bittersteel and Daemon's daughter? 

-Aegon and Daenerys will find a common cause? 

-The Golden Company will abandon Aegon for Daenerys? 

-Tyrion is a secret Targaryen bastard?

-Tyrion is a secret Blackfyre? (Bc Maelys Blackfyre had two heads too)

-If Tyrion is a Targaryen/Blackfyre, why isn't he riding a dragon?

-Tyrion will kill Jamie?

-What is the significance of Tyrion killing Tywin a second time? Or that is only there for showing Tyrion what he did?

-Barristan and Tyrion will be the ones who will support Aegon instead of Daenerys?

-Aegon will get his hand on dragon(s)?

-Tyrion had a prophetic dragondream? (I seriously think this is not the case, since in dragondreams dragons always simbolised something, in this one they did not)

-Where is Daenerys and Aegon from this picture? (They might be on dragonback)

Seriously I'm trying to find out the significance of this dream, but it always breaks at some point, there's always something that does not fit into the whole picture.

Tho there's something I think I'm right about: Tyrion killing Jamie is a paralell to the Blacfyre-Targaryen conflict. The closest kins to the Targaryens attacked them, just as Tyrion attack his closest kin (Jamie). But seriously this is all I can figure out, since there's always something that does not fit into the picture.

 

[Rondo]

Tyrion was dreaming.  His father is already dead.  Bittersteel is gone.  I don't think this is a prediction of the future but rather a clue into what goes on inside Tyrion's soul.  Dreams are said to be the windows to the soul.  Tyrion is morally gray.  

[Daeron the Daring]

19 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Tyrion was dreaming.  His father is already dead.  Bittersteel is gone.  I don't think this is a prediction of the future but rather a clue into what goes on inside Tyrion's soul.  Dreams are said to be the windows to the soul.  Tyrion is morally gray.  

You can say this unless you do not face the fact that: At this point Tyrion knew nothing about Barristan's whereabouts and that the Golden Company will play a major role in the entire Targaryen restoration. At the point the reader read this chapter, none of these things were on the horizon for Tyrion, yet he's got these 'individuals' into his dreams for no reason. That's why some think this is a prophetic dream, and admit it: It sounds like one.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, Tyrion had this dream on his journey with Illyrio, when he knew nothing about Griff, Young Griff (Aegon), Barristan being in Meereen, or the Golden Company supporting the Targaryen restoration.

So what does this dream confirm?

-What is Bittersteel simbolyzing? The Golden Company, or Aegon? Or something else?

-Aegon being a descendant of Bittersteel and Daemon's daughter? 

-Aegon and Daenerys will find a common cause? 

-The Golden Company will abandon Aegon for Daenerys? 

-Tyrion is a secret Targaryen bastard?

-Tyrion is a secret Blackfyre? (Bc Maelys Blackfyre had two heads too)

-If Tyrion is a Targaryen/Blackfyre, why isn't he riding a dragon?

-Tyrion will kill Jamie?

-What is the significance of Tyrion killing Tywin a second time? Or that is only there for showing Tyrion what he did?

-Barristan and Tyrion will be the ones who will support Aegon instead of Daenerys?

-Aegon will get his hand on dragon(s)?

-Tyrion had a prophetic dragondream? (I seriously think this is not the case, since in dragondreams dragons always simbolised something, in this one they did not)

-Where is Daenerys and Aegon from this picture? (They might be on dragonback)

Seriously I'm trying to find out the significance of this dream, but it always breaks at some point, there's always something that does not fit into the whole picture.

Tho there's something I think I'm right about: Tyrion killing Jamie is a paralell to the Blacfyre-Targaryen conflict. The closest kins to the Targaryens attacked them, just as Tyrion attack his closest kin (Jamie). But seriously this is all I can figure out, since there's always something that does not fit into the picture.

 

Guilt over his deeds .

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar . And a dream is just a dream .

[Megorova]

I think that it is a prophetic dream. Tyrion will be fighting against the Others and their Undead Army, alongside with Barristan, and whoever at that time will be the leader, of what will be remaining from the Golden Company, after GC's clash with Ironborn/Euron, which they lost. fAegon at that time, probably, will be already dead.

"Bittersteel" in a context of Tyrion's dream is not an actual Aegor Rivers, and not even his descendant, more likely that it will be his successor, GC's captain-general.

Tywin was leading the enemy's army, this symbolizes that the army will be an Undead Army, White Walkers, corpses. Those who are already dead, and whom their opponents will have to kill a second time.

Also could be that even though in his dream Tyrion saw that his comrade was Barristan the Bold, could be that it's also not what will be actually happening. This personification also could be symbolical. Instead of Barristan, the one who will support Tyrion, could be someone who is not Barristan, but is like Barristan. So either that someone will be a Kingsguard or Lord Commander of Kingsguards, or someone who is bloodrelated to Barristan. This person could be either Brienne, or the Hound, or Jaime. All three were Kingsguards. Also the Hound and Brienne are bloodrelated to each other and bloodrelated to Barristan.

Brienne is a great great granddaughter of Duncan the Tall, and the Hound is Duncan's great grandson. Brienne's maternal grandmother is a sister of the Hound's mother. Duncan the Tall is a bastard-son of Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen. And Barristan's maternal grandfather is Aenys Blackfyre, son of Daemon I and Duncan the Tall's half-brother. So Barristan is a second cousin of the Hound's mother and Brienne's maternal grandmother. The Hound is Barristan's cousin once removed, and Brienne to him is a second cousin twice removed. That's a bit too overcomplicated.

Shortly - the point is is that Barristan is bloodrelated to the Hound and Brienne. So instead of Barristan alongside with Tyrion will be fighting not Barristan but someone who is LIKE Barristan. Either that likeness is blood-based or they are alike because this someone will be a Kingsguard, same as Barristan was. So it could be also Jaime.

Tyrion in his dream killing Jaime could mean that he will actually kill Jaime. Though at that time it will be necessary, because Jaime will be a wight/white walker/undead.

Tyrion having two heads also means something. Maybe during that battle he will be riding a dragon. And that dragon's face will be deformed/damaged/noseless like Tyrion's. Or instead of a dragon he will be riding a noseless horse.

Or, Tyrion having two heads in that dream, could mean that he will be fighting alongside with someone like him. Maybe it will be Penny. Maybe she will lose her nose while they will take part in some battle at Meereen.

Or, him having two heads, means something like, while going into that battle he will have an undecided mind. He will be having internal conflict about something. He will make one decision, and when he will act on this decision, the other part of him will regret doing this act.

Could be that Tyrion had that dream because someone slipped him a shade-of-the-evening into his wine. Or his dreams were visited and influenced by Quaithe/Shiera. She did warned Dany against Tyrion. So maybe she used a glass candle to get into his mind while he was sleeping, and as a side effect of their souls/minds touching, he had a glimpse of the future, because Shiera is a dragonseed and a prophet. While she was looking into his mind, she didn't liked what she saw there, thus she told Dany not to trust to a lion, who will be traveling with a griffin (JonCon). Or maybe Tyrion is King Aerys' bastard, and thus he has genuine dragondreams.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, Tyrion had this dream on his journey with Illyrio, when he knew nothing about Griff, Young Griff (Aegon), Barristan being in Meereen, or the Golden Company supporting the Targaryen restoration.

I don't think it's about the Targaryen restoration per se, but rather about the real war that's coming and I think all these various factions coming together to fight. Tywin is essentially undead in this dream and is leading the enemy that Tyrion, Bittersteel and Barristan are fighting against.

And as far as him killing Jaime, Tyrion has two heads in this dream, just like Maelys the Monstrous did and he is an avowed kinslayer. One of his head is weeping he realizes, so that's probably his conflicting feelings about Jaime. He certainly doesn't feel the same way when he kills Tywin again.

The thing is, Tyrion isn't the only one having a dream about killing a sibling. Jon in his dream (Jon XII) beheads Robb.

6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-Aegon being a descendant of Bittersteel and Daemon's daughter? 

So GRRM confirmed a 2-3 years ago at some Con that Bittersteel and Calla had no children. There's a thread here somewhere about it. I think he confirmed it at the same time he said that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him when he joined the NW.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Seriously I'm trying to find out the significance of this dream, but it always breaks at some point, there's always something that does not fit into the whole picture.

I do think it's a prophetic dream.  It fits with what Moqorro sees in the flames as well:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

Concerning Tywin and Jaimie; It's understabdable that he would dream of killing Tywin again considering the damage done to Tyrion's core identity and self worth.  It's curious that Tyrion is focused on making Jaime's face into a red ruin since Tyrion's face is also in ruin. I don't think he will kill Jaime though.  The weeping head represents Tyrion's complete devastation at the hands of his father and he kills the memory of him again.  Jaimie has failed Tyrion in some way and he is also trying to excise and remove his feelings for his brother as well.  

The business of fighting with both Selmy and the Golden Company is interesting.  That could suggest that Tyrion will engineer some kind of joint force between Dany and Aegon at some point.

Now that Tyrion is dried out,  I'll be curious about any other dreams.  So far he either stays up all night or drinks himself into a stupor to avoid dreaming.  

[Daeron the Daring]

@Megorova, it is a big speculation and basically built up on no evidence. It also hardly fits into the picture to consider that Barristan simbolyzed anyone else out of himself. His presence is interesting because he can actually appear in such a scenario, and Tyrion dreams this while he knows nothing about his whereabouts.

It is also an interesting idea to think that Tywin represents the actual dead, but then Jaime's presence is unjustified, because he surely is not dead when Tyrion kills him. It might make sense if Tyrion in some way kills him after the Long Night. 

This quote is also referring to the 1st Blackfyre Rebellion:

12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Bittersteel in a context of Tyrion's dream is not an actual Aegor Rivers, and not even his descendant, more likely that it will be his successor, GC's captain-general.

Quite dissapointing way of interpreting Bittersteel, tho.

Also: Quathie, as powerful as she is, doesn't see the future. This is showed when she tought Tyrion will come with JonCon to him. In the end, JonCon never came to her, Tyrion reached her a different way.

5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And as far as him killing Jaime, Tyrion has two heads in this dream, just like Maelys the Monstrous did and he is an avowed kinslayer.

Yes, that might be the explanation for that. Nice catch.

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

I was also looking after the explanation for this quote by Moqorro. Who are these different dragons, and altough this can interpreted in different ways, It's interesting how he gives no hint about Tyrion being a 'dragon'. He just calls him a small man with a big shadow, standing in the middle of everything.

Seriously, I just don't know.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I was also looking after the explanation for this quote by Moqorro. Who are these different dragons, and altough this can interpreted in different ways, It's interesting how he gives no hint about Tyrion being a 'dragon'. He just calls him a small man with a big shadow, standing in the middle of everything.

Seriously, I just don't know.

Dany gives a hint about true and false dragons when she says Viserys is not a true dragon even though he is a Targaryen.  Which implies there is more to being a true dragon than just the bloodline.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon

 

.When Moqorro speaks of dragons young and old;  I think he is actually talking about dragons rather than people.  Dany's newly born dragons and one very old dragon.  Perhaps the dragon god R'hllor.  The singing dragon of Dany's dreams and who transforms her with spiritual fire,  This could be why Dany is  a true dragon while Viserys is not.

[broken one]

It confirms his guilt, remorse and desires. To me it is most manifest example of dream in the series which is just a dream, not a hint nor prophecy.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I was also looking after the explanation for this quote by Moqorro. Who are these different dragons, and altough this can interpreted in different ways, It's interesting how he gives no hint about Tyrion being a 'dragon'. He just calls him a small man with a big shadow, standing in the middle of everything.

I think this is foreshadowing of Tyrion being the one who will starting pulling the threads of the story together. Look at the people he has met already and will meet once he gets to Meereen.

For one, and let's forget for a second this whole (f)Aegon business, once Tyrion meets Dany, he will be the only person in this universe who will know Jon Snow, Aegon and Dany. That's pretty huge since they are the last three Targaryens, and Tyrion's mind is always working (when he's not wallowing in self-pity). 

Jon Snow can be the dark dragon, because of his dark coloring, Aegon has been called bright and Dany is a true dragon (Illyrio called her a true Targaryen). And all three are young. So that leaves the old and the false that Tyrion will also be meeting.

Tyrion met an old dragon, Maester Aemon, but I think that we are looking at another candidate for this one.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon

At least that isn't true. Prince Daeron (the Daring) likely died in the fire caused by Seasmoke. Rhaenyra was fed to Sunfyre, but we know dragons only eat cooked meat :). Fire can kill a dragon (khm...the Doom of Valyria), and a dragon can also kill a dragon with fire. And fire can kill a Targaryen too.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For one, and let's forget for a second this whole (f)Aegon business, once Tyrion meets Dany, he will be the only person in this universe who will know Jon Snow, Aegon and Dany. That's pretty huge since they are the last three Targaryens, and Tyrion's mind is always working (when he's not wallowing in self-pity). 

The Aegon part is definitely interesting. The Jon Snow part might also be ingeresting if the word of Jon being a Targaryen reaches Daenerys earlier than Jon himself. Otherwise, not so much, he might just talk him for her if Jon will be at a major position at the point Daenerys arrives (King, or LC of the NW).

 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think this is foreshadowing of Tyrion being the one who will starting pulling the threads of the story together. Look at the people he has met already and will meet once he gets to Meereen.

Yes, that's pretty clear, the different variatons of dragons are not that much, tho. I am thinking about it quite a lot.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The Aegon part is definitely interesting. The Jon Snow part might also be ingeresting if the word of Jon being a Targaryen reaches Daenerys earlier than Jon himself. Otherwise, not so much, he might just talk him for her if Jon will be at a major position at the point Daenerys arrives (King, or LC of the NW).

I think Jon will go through a similar experience that Bran and Dany went through when they were in their coma / fever dreaming. And I think there is enough information in Meereen for Tyrion to be able to puzzle things out.

But right off the bat, when Bran is describing Jon in his very first chapter and comparing him to Robb, he describes Jon as dark where Robb was fair. 

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, that's pretty clear, the different variatons of dragons are not that much, tho. I am thinking about it quite a lot.

I think there is more than one old dragon in Meereen, two to be more precise.

Brown Ben Plumm is one. We know that Dany's dragons were fond of Brown Ben and Tyrion identified him as having two drops of dragon blood, from Aegon and cousin Elaena, instead of the one. And now Tyrion is part of the Second Sons and making promises of gold and lands. He wants to convince Ben to turn his cloak and defect back to Dany's side.

I do have an inkling of who the other old dragon and the false dragon are, but it's speculative, especially with the other old dragon.

[chrisdaw]

On 2/1/2021 at 4:34 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

-If Tyrion is a Targaryen/Blackfyre, why isn't he riding a dragon?

Because it would be too obvious.

Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, he will ride Viserion, he will be extremely powerful and influential, he will be king. The dream is simple. A large component of his arc will be his inner turmoil regarding embracing either house Targaryen against house Lannister or house Lannister against house Targaryen. That is what the dream is symbolising, one head for Lannister, one for Targaryen.

In the dream he has turned full Targaryen, cutting down his father again and Jaime, destroying house Lannister, like he allegedly wants. But if that is truly what he wants why is one of his heads weeping?

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

At least that isn't true. Prince Daeron (the Daring) likely died in the fire caused by Seasmoke. Rhaenyra was fed to Sunfyre, but we know dragons only eat cooked meat :). Fire can kill a dragon (khm...the Doom of Valyria), and a dragon can also kill a dragon with fire. And fire can kill a Targaryen too.

 

Dany is the Unburnt given her temporary immunity to fire after she wakes the dragon.  I think this is what she means by true dragon and why she is the chosen one. 

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Dany is the Unburnt given her temporary immunity to fire after she wakes the dragon.  I think this is what she means by true dragon and why she is the chosen one. 

Daenerys' temporary (or not temporary) ability to be immune to fire is a big plothole, awaiting to be filled. I regularly forget this and always think that Jon is the chosen one, but her immunity to fire and that she woke the dragons from stone always makes me question my own opinion.

[Julia H.]

18 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Jon will go through a similar experience that Bran and Dany went through when they were in their coma / fever dreaming. And I think there is enough information in Meereen for Tyrion to be able to puzzle things out.

But right off the bat, when Bran is describing Jon in his very first chapter and comparing him to Robb, he describes Jon as dark where Robb was fair. 

I think there is more than one old dragon in Meereen, two to be more precise.

Brown Ben Plumm is one. We know that Dany's dragons were fond of Brown Ben and Tyrion identified him as having two drops of dragon blood, from Aegon and cousin Elaena, instead of the one. And now Tyrion is part of the Second Sons and making promises of gold and lands. He wants to convince Ben to turn his cloak and defect back to Dany's side.

I do have an inkling of who the other old dragon and the false dragon are, but it's speculative, especially with the other old dragon.

And now you have made me curious... 

[Lollygag]

A number of things all at once but I agree with the other posters about it being more about Tyrion's thoughts and feelings. Maybe there's prophesy or foreshadowing, but we'll have to wait and see.

We can tell that Tyrion is processing a lot about Targs now given his location. He identifies himself fighting with them against his family telling us where his feeling still are. This is significant given he knows Dany is poised to go against his family and it sets up that Tyrion will still struggle with his choice in the future. Tyrion wants revenge with an obsessive and blinding rage, but the weeping head says it'll come at a deep, deep cost. Shades of Arya's and Stoneheart's revenge thing here.

With the two heads, it's a very common thing with Lannisters and it looks something like the theatrical masks, one of a positive emotion and one of a negative emotion in balance with each other. Tywin never smiled after Johanna (his cousin and also a Lannister) died but Tywin smiles when reunited with her in death making Tywin the negative face and Johanna the positive one. And here's how Jamie and Cersei are introduced:

AGOT Tyrion I

His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born. "The king has not slept at all," she told him. "He is with Lord Eddard. He has taken their sorrow deeply to heart."

"He has a large heart, our Robert," Jaime said with a lazy smile. There was very little that Jaime took seriously. Tyrion knew that about his brother, and forgave it. During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything.

 

A servant approached. "Bread," Tyrion told him, "and two of those little fish, and a mug of that good dark beer to wash them down. Oh, and some bacon. Burn it until it turns black." The man bowed and moved off. Tyrion turned back to his siblings. Twins, male and female. They looked very much the part this morning. Both had chosen a deep green that matched their eyes. Their blond curls were all a fashionable tumble, and gold ornaments shone at wrists and fingers and throats.

 

Tyrion wondered what it would be like to have a twin, and decided that he would rather not know. Bad enough to face himself in a looking glass every day. Another him was a thought too dreadful to contemplate.

 

Tyrion himself has two faces on a normal day and not just in the dream: his eyes are different colors as is his hair. I think he's a chimera of both Aerys' and Tywin's kids, a twin in himself, though I'm not sure it'll ever get confirmed either way in the books. He does like his bacon burnt black like a dragon, though. I'm not exactly sure where this Lannister two faces thing is going, but it's significant because of how often it comes up.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

And now you have made me curious... 

I am thinking about three characters that would fit. I mentioned Brown Ben as an old dragon, but he is also false because he keeps turning his cloak. He has no loyalty.

I think the other old dragon is the Tattered Prince. His backstory begins only after he leaves Pentos. The reason I think he might have Targaryen blood is that there is some emphasis that has been put on his hair color. GRRM uses "silver-grey" to describe the hair of two people in the story and that's Aerys's hair when Dany sees him in the HotU and the Tattered Prince's hair. And to take it a step further, when Quentyn is with him at the Lotus, he notices that in the candlelight, the hair seemed almost golden. So his hair in his youth would have been silver-gold, which would indicate that Tatters is of Valyrian descent. I've been wondering if one of those two sisters Egg had wasn't married off in Pentos. Furthermore, the Tattered Prince seems to have traveled to Westeros and witnessed a Westerosi wedding. There's only one wedding that would have been of interest to a Pentoshi nobleman while he was still in Pentos and that's Rhaella and Aerys's wedding, imo. But like I said, very very speculative. 

The other one, the false dragon, is Mr. Blank Slate himself, Daario Naharis. I explain my reasoning here, as to why I think Daario is in fact a Blackfyre. Daario has been straight up called false, even his beard wears false colors, as Jorah tells Dany. 

Tyrion has either met these these characters (Jon Snow, Aegon, Brown Ben) or he is about to meet them (Dany, Tattered Prince, Daario).