DCEU: Enter the Snyderverse

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Superman & Lois has been much better than other shows so far. I don't know how well it's doing ratings wise because it's been strongly affected by Covid with both seasons having multiple interruptions.

I gave up on the rest of Arrowverse long ago. Never even tried watching Batwoman.

Going by Nielsen ratings, it's not doing as bad as The Batwoman or Legends, but it's no where near the early seasons of most of the other shows. It managed to crack the top 100 in terms of the 18-49 demographic (barely); one of only a handful of Arrowverse seasons to do so.

However, from what I've seen the production values for that show are a considerable step up from the rest of the CW shows. That suggests a higher budget. If that's the case, the floor beneath which the show fails somewhat higher than for something like Batgirl. Again, I don't know if streaming is impacting this. 

I never saw Krypton but I heard the first season was pretty good. The second season apparently was shit. It didn't last beyond that. 

[Heartofice]

I do remember when Arrow and Flash came out I felt a little excited because at the time it was quite unusual to see superhero tv shows. I remember wanting to lap up basically anything superhero related, mainly animation.

That I think led to a more forgiving audience. But now Marvel has a range of tv shows of their own, which are generally of a decently good quality.

Why would anyone want to watch the low budget, poorly written garbage such as Batwoman in a world where Moon Knight exists?

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I never saw Krypton but I heard the first season was pretty good. The second season apparently was shit. It didn't last beyond that. 

I saw the first season and didn't think much of it so stopped there.

The CW is under sale or already purchased not sure, which is why the Babylon 5 project has been put on hold for now. So this may be another reason for this recent string of cancellations because usually the CW keeps shows going long past their expiration dates.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I do remember when Arrow and Flash came out I felt a little excited because at the time it was quite unusual to see superhero tv shows. I remember wanting to lap up basically anything superhero related, mainly animation.

This was pretty common at the time I think.

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That I think led to a more forgiving audience. But now Marvel has a range of tv shows of their own, which are generally of a decently good quality.

Definitely. Again, I haven't seen much. A few episodes of Supergirl and the Flash (because I have a niece who was 15 at the time), but am I the only one that thinks some of those shows feel dated? Like they were made in the mid naughties?

14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Why would anyone want to watch the low budget, poorly written garbage such as Batwoman in a world where Moon Knight exists?

Marvel's D+ output is on another planet compared to what's on the CW. Not just writing; also star power, production values, etc. Whereas the CW has become synonymous with low quality. Then you have the other stuff: The Boys on amazon and Invincible, which are both well received. Netflix could have had success with Jupiters Legacy. Some of those episodes weren't half bad. Sigh, and they spent $200 million on that one. 

[Heartofice]

Oh I forgot about stuff like The Boys and Invincible. Yeah good point, we are completely over saturated with super hero content these days. Are many people going to watch any old crap just because someone is wearing a cape and a mask? 
 

Even stuff like Jupiters Legacy I barely gave a chance because I wanted that story I have plenty of choice, given it’s basically doing what Boys and Invincible is doing.. just not as well. 
 

The CW shows do feel like something from another era. The Smallville era where we’d be happy with soap quality plots, awful special effects and acting just for a promise of something superman related. That’s hardly the case now.

Also my other gripe is that nothing in CW feels canon, it’s doing it’s own crappy thing but it feels like cosplay fan fiction, not to be taken seriously.

[sifth]

The CW does have one enjoyable superhero show and it's Stargirl. I know it was designed for DC Nation or whatever the online service was called, but the show has a lot of heart and soul to it and for some daft reason just makes me happy, while I watch it. Also the villains are insanely fun and likeable characters.

[DaveSumm]

It seemed like Arrow was popular, then The Flash spin-off worked, and they asked “what’s the most amount of this stuff we can churn out for the least money and effort?” The quality of all the DCTV series dropped significantly after those first few seasons, and it became way too much work to keep up with for such mediocre TV. I stopped somewhere around LoT Season 2, and then caught whatever cross over it was they did (some combo of the words ‘Infinite’ and ‘Crisis’ no doubt) and it was just shit.

[Corvinus85]

What this is not quality superhero TV? 

FYI, this is the last episode of LoT that I watched.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

What this is not quality superhero TV? 

FYI, this is the last episode of LoT that I watched.

The Demon's name is "Lance"?

OK, that blue asshole was pretty amazing, but did they seriously recycle a gag from Ghostbusters?

3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

It seemed like Arrow was popular, then The Flash spin-off worked, and they asked “what’s the most amount of this stuff we can churn out for the least money and effort?” The quality of all the DCTV series dropped significantly after those first few seasons, and it became way too much work to keep up with for such mediocre TV. I stopped somewhere around LoT Season 2, and then caught whatever cross over it was they did (some combo of the words ‘Infinite’ and ‘Crisis’ no doubt) and it was just shit.

Yeah well, these IP's aren't going to milk themselves. 

I think the Crisis crossover event was the one thing that interrupted the downward ratings trend in a notable way. This suggests potential viewers are out there, but these shows don't generate enough interest in the normal run of things to tune in.

They're diluting the shit out of their brand.

 

 

[Corvinus85]

19 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The Demon's name is "Lance"?

Played by John Noble no less before turning into a demon. 

But really it wasn't the ridiculousness of this fight that turned me off, it was the poor writing for various characters throughout that season. Notice how half the characters in that scene are relegated to sideline cheerleaders, having nothing else to do.

[Jaxom 1974]

Not everyone was into the Arrowverse.  That's fine.  Me?  I'd still rather watch, and have fun with, Legends or Batwoman or Flash that have to sit through any of those Snyder DC Movies, or whatever the hell Aquaman was.  I have zero interest in Suicide Squad, regardless of James Gunn's involvement. That they had to remake the movie, essentially, within five years of the first one is as much of a condemnation of the DC movies as anything else.  Harley Quinn is the over saturated Deadpool of DC.  Why they had to re-do Batman again is still beyond me and I still have no desire to see the new one, though that might be because I actually liked Affleck as Batman.

So essentially, everyone likes what they like.  Me?  I know the Arrowverse isn't high art.  I don't need it to be.  It was comic books on screen. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Not everyone was into the Arrowverse.  That's fine.  Me?  I'd still rather watch, and have fun with, Legends or Batwoman or Flash that have to sit through any of those Snyder DC Movies, or whatever the hell Aquaman was.  I have zero interest in Suicide Squad, regardless of James Gunn's involvement. That they had to remake the movie, essentially, within five years of the first one is as much of a condemnation of the DC movies as anything else.  Harley Quinn is the over saturated Deadpool of DC.  Why they had to re-do Batman again is still beyond me and I still have no desire to see the new one, though that might be because I actually liked Affleck as Batman.

So essentially, everyone likes what they like.  Me?  I know the Arrowverse isn't high art.  I don't need it to be.  It was comic books on screen. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

All perfectly valid. 

I for one really enjoyed the Snyder films. I liked Man of Steel so much I saw it twice in the same weekend. Seeing it on Home media, my only real complaint is that the action could be a tad less kinetic. But watching that on a big screen, I was blown away. I also saw Superman Returns in the theater and watched the first two Donner films about 50 times between them BTW.

The problem that the DC films have (that the Marvel films didn't) is legacy. There was really no Marvel version of Superman '78 or Batman '89. There was no Smallville, Lois and Clark, Dark Knight trilogy, JLU, etc. Or at least to the extent there was, they never had the same impact. As such, there are no classic on-screen versions of those characters to compare it to. There's less to gate-keep. The exception was the first two Hulk films. When they came out there were actual fanboys saying, "It should be a guy with muscles", or, "Bring Lou Farrigno back". I think they were only half joking.

As such they have a bit more room move when it comes to the stories and characters. By the time Thanos really makes an entrance, they've transformed him from a psycho who's trying to impress his girlfriend to some kind of benevolent eco terrorist and no one says a thing about it because they're all just along for the ride at that point. 

On the other hand, with DC you have different groups of people who all have their definitive "canonical" versions of these characters. It could be JLU or Superman '78 or Comics Code of America silver age comics. You will never, ever satisfy everyone. 

And the bad faith criticisms. Jesus. Comic book nerds are the worst. 

"He never saves anyone."

You get introduced to adult Clark Kent as he's jumping onto a burning oil rig to save a bunch of guys. Then it flashes back to him as a kid saving a bus load of children. Lois Lane literally tracks him down by following the trail of people he's helped. And all this before he knew about his Kryptonian heritage (something the Donner Superman didn't do BTW). his second day on the job he saves the planet, twice. 

"Zod isn't a formidable villain"

Just as powerful as Superman, with military training, and incapable of any empathy or solidarity with humanity. Like, biologically incapable; due to his role as a military leader and Kryptons artificial breeding scheme. That sounds pretty formidable to me. 

"Why is it so important he keep his powers secret?"

Obvious. And absolutely part of the superman canon going all the way back to the beginning. His parents even encourage him to get only average grades and underperform in sports to hide his true abilities. 

"Jonathan Kent said 'let the kids die!'"

No he didn't. Watch that scene again. Maybe Jonathan Kent is trying to explain things to his super powered alien son and maybe he doesn't have all the answers in that exact moment. "It's called 'acting' dear boy."

"That guys truck!"

He was an asshole and his truck is insured.

I could go on. 

[RumHam]

Man of Steel is fine. It doesn't do much for me but I agree with everything you said.

Batman V. Superman is where things went off the rails. I remember reading the full title Dawn of Justice and being like "wait...what?" and it turns out that pretty much sums up my attitude towards that movie.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

The title and the theatrical cut was dictated by the studio. The ultimate cut is what should have been released; or at least a PG-13 version of it. 

[RumHam]

17 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The title and the theatrical cut was dictated by the studio. The ultimate cut is what should have been released; or at least a PG-13 version of it. 

I'm pretty sure I watched that on HBO Max at one point. I love that they offer alternate cuts for some movies. Anyway I don't think it really changed my opinion of the movie.

I also don't have a lot of sympathy for directors who write a three hour movie when they know the studio isn't going to let it be that long. I think you need to be realistic about what you're doing and tell a story in a reasonable amount of time. That or they need to bring back intermissions!

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm pretty sure I watched that on HBO Max at one point. I love that they offer alternate cuts for some movies. Anyway I don't think it really changed my opinion of the movie.

I also don't have a lot of sympathy for directors who write a three hour movie when they know the studio isn't going to let it be that long. I think you need to be realistic about what you're doing and tell a story in a reasonable amount of time. That or they need to bring back intermissions!

Do we know this? I know the dictate for a two hour runtime for 2017's JL movie came long after principal photography was complete. I've never heard the claim for BVS that Snyder went off and made a longer film than the studio asked for. These films have producers after all.

The Batman was 3 hours long. 

[RumHam]

16 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Do we know this? I know the dictate for a two hour runtime for 2017's JL movie came long after principal photography was complete. I've never heard the claim for BVS that Snyder went off and made a longer film than the studio asked for. These films have producers after all.

The Batman was 3 hours long. 

Oh I don't know anything I'm just speculating. I would think that when they turn in the script they'd be told "this is too long." I remembered hearing about the 2 hour mandate but didn't realize it came after they'd shot the thing.

Endgame was three hours too I think, but that was later and justified. I wouldn't be shocked to learn The Batman was only three hours long because someone insisted on tacking on that ending action sequence.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

33 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Oh I don't know anything I'm just speculating. I would think that when they turn in the script they'd be told "this is too long." I remembered hearing about the 2 hour mandate but didn't realize it came after they'd shot the thing.

They were already well into editing and planning reshoots. I think it was within 1 month of Snyder departing. From Tsujihara apparently. 

39 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Endgame was three hours too I think, but that was later and justified. I wouldn't be shocked to learn The Batman was only three hours long because someone insisted on tacking on that ending action sequence.

Even without the action set piece, The Batman would clock in around 2h 40m. That's a pretty long movie. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the film originally ended with Riddler's Ave Maria (which would have been amazing). 

[RumHam]

11 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

They were already well into editing and planning reshoots. I think it was within 1 month of Snyder departing. From Tsujihara apparently. 

Even without the action set piece, The Batman would clock in around 2h 40m. That's a pretty long movie. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the film originally ended with Riddler's Ave Maria (which would have been amazing). 

That sorta seems like a "cut your losses" move.

Yeah they've been getting longer and longer sadly. I don't think things were quite as bad in 2016.

I maintain that for Justice League all the slow motion shots should be replaced with fast motion. Scored with the benny hill theme of course. Would have shaved at least half an hour off and livened things up a bit.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

That sorta seems like a "cut your losses" move.

WW84 clocked in at 2.5 hours. That thing could have lost 30 minutes easily and it'd still be just as baffling.

16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah they've been getting longer and longer sadly. I don't think things were quite as bad in 2016.

I don't mind that at all. Dune clocks in at around 2.5 hours as well. Watching that in a theater, it held my attention the whole time. I wish there was more of it. Supposedly the banquet scene was shot but was cut out. I wish they'd left that in.