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Jaenara Belarys

Daenerys Mistakes in Slaver's Bay

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

I don't get what you are trying to say. You are providing quotes that being merciful, good and honorable led ned to a cell. 

Where he ended up does not determine the morality of his choices.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

That is hardly a reason for people to be good, merciful and honorable because it will lead them to their doom...

You don't get rewarded for doing the right thing.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

They kind of do. If a war ocured because ned didn't kill danny when he should then any orphan because of that war would argue that ned should just have killed danny and saved countless lives.

You cannot know the future, or know how a different action would change the past. You can make a case for murder if you want, but you still seem to miss the entire point here. Morality is not determined by what results in the best outcome for you, that's just self interest.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

Ned's responsabilities to his people must also weight when he makes decisions about letting dangerous inocent people live. What is moraly right for a man isn't the same as what is moraly right for a leader. A man can decide to let a mortal enemy live and he is only putting himself at risk. If a leader lets a mortal enemy live then he is puttin all his people at risk. There is a diference!

Perhaps. This is at least a more interesting argument. Although I think it still falls terribly flat when you are talking about murdering children.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea what you are trying to say. That passage is used to show us that Ned ISN'T  a better man. That he compromises his honnor for the love he has for his daughters. That he is as flawed as aemon expects.

I think you are misinterpreting this wildly.

Honor isnt the same as morraly good, neither is love.

Jon says Ned would do what is right, and for the reader Ned is the best example of a "good" man we are given. This is not to say he is perfect.

In the case of his life Ned would not lie, but for his daughters he would. Life is complicated like that.

But don't confuse this with Aemon's twisted view of honor and duty... something highlighted by his assumption that Jon meant duty by saying Ned would do what was right.

Ned would sacrifice his own honor and live a lie for the sake of his sister and her son.

Where is Aemon's child?

3 minutes ago, divica said:

It isn't a false choice. It is a matter of how much you are willing to risk the lives of the people that follow you. If you kill the children of enemies then you are risking 0. Letting danny marry drogo is risking a lot. If a lord really cares about his people he has to take action.

Absolute nonsense, this is the definition of a false choice. You are presenting two options as if there are no others, a classic fallacy.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

A leader can't say that he would rather go to war with the dothriaki instead of killing danny at the moment. Everybody knows that she married drogo in order to invade westeros. If a leader can prevent a war then he has to try.

Wrong, the dothraki have never crossed an ocean, something everyone knows. Even Illyrio never expected Dany to return from the Dothraki Plains.

Again you present as inevitable that which is not.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

You are thinking as an individual only responsable for yourself. A good lord is someone that keeps his people safe and well cared. Who cares if he is evil and uses underhanded tactics against his enemies? Ned doesn't need to care about the rights of targs that are preparing to invade westeros...

I care. A good man cares about doing the right thing even when it does not benefit him. And rights are not rights if you deny them to those you dislike.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

You are comparing northerns that love the starks to people that hate the lannisters. How many westermen are turning against the lannisters?

If Tywin Lannister was truly dead, no one was safe . . . least of all her son upon his throne. When the lion falls the lesser beasts move in: the jackals and the vultures and the feral dogs.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

And go ask the boltons, karstarks and dustins what they think of ned and robb... Hell, the north remember robb as the king that lost the north...

I think you will see both the karstarks and the dustins are not as anti Stark as you seem to imagine. But again, this is a part of the story teaching lessons not a reason to be moral. Being moral is its own reason.

 

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12 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

He's lost one grand kid in his own line. Arn't you assuming a lot to say Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion (maybe), Marcella and Tommen will all die. isn't that contrary to your own claim that the sins fo the father arn't the sins of the son?

 

Yep. Agreed. House Lannister ain't about to go extinct.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

He's lost one grand kid in his own line. Arn't you assuming a lot to say Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion (maybe), Marcella and Tommen will all die. isn't that contrary to your own claim that the sins fo the father arn't the sins of the son?

Don't conflate story telling and cosmic (author) justice with moral reasoning. I'm not advocating for murdering Tommen or Myrcella, but yes I think Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella are doomed.

Quote

and to that end the Lannister family is still huge, and more than just his kids, Tywin loves Lannister. 

Does he? Or does he love himself?

When did he ever sacrifice for another?

This is also why I said his line and not necessarily the whole of House Lannister.

Edited by Mourning Star

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1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

Don't conflate story telling and cosmic (author) justice with moral reasoning. I'm not advocating for murdering Tommen or Myrcella, but yes I think Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, and Myrdella are doomed.

Does he? Or does he love himself?

When did he ever sacrifice for another?

This is also why I said his line and not necessarily the whole of House Lannister.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. Storytelling and cosmic author justice is what is being discussed here. It is in fact the moral reasoning inherent in the story which we are debating... If you are arguing that a theme of Asoaif is that the sins fo the father are not the sins of the son then that would be expected to be reflected in Asoiaf... right?

unrelatedly, when did he make a sacrifice for another... by his own words, he let Tyrion live after he killed his mother, and even went to war for him when he was arrested by Cat, because the honor of Lannister demanded it.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. Storytelling and cosmic author justice is what is being discussed here. It is in fact the moral reasoning inherent in the story which we are debating... If you are arguing that a theme of Asoaif is that the sins fo the father are not the sins of the son then that would be expected to be reflected in Asoiaf... right?

What I am trying to say is that there is a big difference in arguing that something happens because of a choice, or that it's happening in a story because it's part of the story.

For instance, there is no reason to expect that making a morally good choice will result in reward (in fact it's often the opposite), but for the sake of story telling morally good actions (or characters) are often rewarded and morally bad actions (or characters) punished.

So, in ASoIaF, we can see both bad things happen to good people and also a sort of "cosmic" or "story driven" justice play out; without this being inconsistent.

Quote

unrelatedly, when did he make a sacrifice for another... by his own words, he let Tyrion live after he killed his mother, and even went to war for him when he was arrested by Cat, because the honor of Lannister demanded it.

So this is a whole topic in itself I suppose. But in both cases I think Tywin acted on behalf of Tywin. I think he cared about his own power, wellbeing and legacy.

Johanna died giving birth to Tyrion. I would never say Tyrion killed her. Maybe you could blame getting pregnant or the one who impregnated her, but blaming an unborn baby seems silly. Perhaps this is still a good example. If I'm to believe Tywin cared about anyone it was his wife, and perhaps Tyrion was all he had left of her.

I do not think Tywin went to war for Tyrion. I think he used Tyrion's abduction as an opportunity. Tywin was perfectly willing to see Tyrion executed (or maybe exiled if what he says after is to be believed) for a crime he knew Tyrion didn't commit.

But, we don't ever get Tywin's PoV, all I can do is speculate.

Tywin appears to me a selfish, power-hungry, and ruthlessly efficient lord with deep insecurities.

He's a fantastic character, but not one to admire.

Edited by Mourning Star

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4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

This series is fairly clearly a condemnation the Iraq War and the attempts to legitimize that "pre-emptive attack".

 

This is nowhere near that. Those turds deserved to die for what they did. I feel bad for the families of those who had soldiers come back in a coffin, but I have no sympathy for people who drive a plane into buildings. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
 

This is nowhere near that. Those turds deserved to die for what they did. I feel bad for the families of those who had soldiers come back in a coffin, but I have no sympathy for people who drive a plane into buildings. 

I'm drunk so i'll be brief, but your mistaking the iraq war for the war in Afghanistan. 

the people responsible for 9/11 are a bunch of Saudi Arabians and Jordanians. The Taliban of Afghanistan sheltered al-quida after being educated by Saudi Arabians goverment after the ussr invasion of Afghanistan in which the US utilized Afghanistan in a proxy war akin to Vietnam. those from Afghanistan fled to saudi Arabia in this time and were educated by fundamentalists Islamist, returned to Afghanistan and later forming the Taliban. Thus leading to the invasion ofAfghanistan as the taliban sheltered al-quada.

The Iraq War started over oil. (operation impending liberty). essentially the Bush government leaked to the new york times that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (atomic warheads) and then used the article as source for justification of invasion to depose Sadam and impose a puppet democratic government,  though they had no WMD and the act of war ultimately destabilized the region giving rise to ISIS.

I'll probably be back to talk about ASOiaf tomorrow when im sober. thank you and good night

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
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12 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

This is nowhere near that. Those turds deserved to die for what they did. I feel bad for the families of those who had soldiers come back in a coffin, but I have no sympathy for people who drive a plane into buildings. 

I dont think the author's focus is on the "people who deserved to die." 

“The dragons are the ultimate weapon in the world of Ice and Fire. They’re controlled by only a few people. You can win wars with them, win battles with them, but that doesn’t mean you can govern successfully with them—build a successful society and culture. In that sense, they are like nuclear weapons. Like right now, you see President Obama and Congress and NATO all wrestling with what to do about ISIS in the Middle East. One thing no one mentions is nuclear weapons. We could wipe them off the map tomorrow if we wanted to use our dragons. Still, when do you do that? Do you ever do that? What are the moral ramifications? What does that do to you?” - GRRM, 2014

He sounds like a teacher trying to lead an impartial class discussion but obviously has his own views.

 

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Some interesting points.  My view, FWIW:-

1. Ned would have killed Theon, if Balon rebelled again, and he was instructed to do so.  He would have hated it, might well have suggested an alternative to Robert, but he can't escape that duty, any more than he can escape executing deserters from the Nights Watch.  That's why he always kept a distance between him and Theon.  The fact that Theon is fifteen when the story opens means that no one would consider Theon's execution in any way wantonly cruel.

2. Leaders have to be interested in the consequences of their actions, and to do cruel things in order to safeguard their subjects.  That is simply an inescapable feature of leadership in a crapsack world (and it's true of our world too). A ruler like Aenys I is a positive liability towards his subjects.  The point is to avoid being a Maegor, an Aerys II, or a Cersei.  Jaehaerys I was cruel to his enemies, but guaranteed his subjects decades of peace. Too much mercy can be a mistake.

3. The author deliberately sets up Cersei, Dany, and Jon, as foils during AFFC, and ADWD.  All of them fail as leaders in various ways, Cersei by being too cruel, Dany by being too merciful, Jon by being so focused on bringing down the Boltons, and integrating the free folk, that he fails to see the opposition building to him. However, virtue is not entirely unrewarded.  Cersei's failure is total;  Dany's and Jon's is only partial (assuming Jon is revived).  Dany still has the backing of the freedmen in Meereen, and it seems the slavers will be kerb-stomped. Jon will likely still have the support of the free folk, and many of the Watch.

4. The plan to assassinate Dany can be presented as realpolitik, but it's really Robert being blinded by anger.  The person to assassinate is Khal Drogo.  Dany is his trophy wife.  If he's dead, she has no authority.  Conversely, if she's assassinted, Drogo has every reason to seek revenge.  The plot itself (offering a lordship to anyone who kills her, rather than a professional) is amateurish in the extreme.  Varys intended that plot to fail, and IMHO, so did Littlefinger.  A botched job would suit both of their plans, or for that matter, an attack that succeeded, but drove the Dothraki to seek revenge. It was a sheer fluke that Drogo contracted an infected wound.

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Dany's mistakes in Meereen: 

1 - Not having Daario arrested and executed.

2 - Imagining there is anything remotely hot about Daario;

3 - Getting angry at Jorah for saying don't trust Daario.

4 - Letting Daario lead her van en route to Meereen; 

5 - Believing Daario when he said he was only cutting down the 140 children to spare Dany's feelings

6 - Committing the revenge murder of 140 slavers because of crimes committed by Daario.

7 - Having sex with Daario.

8 - Letting Daario out of her sight for months for a supposed mission to the Lamb Men.

9 - Sending Daario away when he returns, so he can do more unsupervised mischief for months on end;

10 - Having more sex with Daario after realizing it is a mistake to have sex with Daario.

11 - Saying "I order you to boink me" to Daario -- he's gonna get revenge for that one.

12 - Letting Daario go as a hostage to the Yunkai -- the mere fact he agreed to it proves he is up to something.

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20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Now, @divica suggested that I open a thread pointing out mistakes in Dany's rule of Meereen, so I decided to oblige. This is my first thread (but far from my first post), so please tell me about any mistakes. 

1. Hostages. Get older hostages, and be prepared to actually do the deed. Also, don't get TOO attached to said hostages, since you don't want the fondness to get in the way.

Holding children hostages and treating them like cupbearers allows you to influence them and turn their minds against slavery and their parents.  Holding an adult hostage will not accomplish those things.  Besides, keeping children hostage is the way of things on that world.                                                       

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

2. Astapor. The reason your council was overthrown so easily was that it had no force to back it up, thus making it extremely easy to overthrow. Leave 100-500 or even a thousand Unsullied troops to help back up the rule and put down any insurrections with force

Perhaps this may work.  However, the other slavers from Volantis and Qarth would not idly stand by and allow a slave city to fall to free people.  What happened in Astapor could not be stopped in the short term.  Things were going to go bad, like a vaccine induced fever, before things get better in the long term.  The state of things in Astapor will be greatly improved after the power of the masters are broken and most of the slaving families are executed.  Which is justice.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

3. Yunkai. You should've left some more troops, taken much of their wealth and marched.

Probably so

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

4. Marriage to Hizdahr. Why marry to solidify your rule over a city you won't be staying in? 

I think she wanted to buy time.  Time enough to end slavery, leave Hizdahr in charge, and move on to better things.  It was wishful thinking and being overly hopeful, in my opinion, but worth a try.  Dany is a compassionate person who will go through great lengths to protect the people she leads.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

5. You are their queen. You, not them, rule this city. So do NOT let the Green Grace walk all over you by effectively forcing you to wear a tokar. 

Actually, she did not let GG walk over her.  She kept them from inspecting her.  She did to them what she did to the Dothraki.  Ignored a silly custom which she did not agree with.  I say, good job Dany.  I hope to see this mind set continue when she arrives in Westeros.  I don't want her to let a boy get in front of the line to the throne.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

6. Reopen the pits. This is a good way of producing money, and it helps keep the population more tranquil. It also provides a good way of getting rid of criminals.

The fighting pits were reopened in Meereen but with some very reasonable restrictions.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

7. Why in the holy hell are you making your Unsullied take care of sick people? They're your best troops and you potentially just let the bloody flux into the city. 

It was risky and I would not have done it.  But Dany is a better leader and less selfish than I am.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

8. This is a little callous, but let them Astapori die. They're a drain on resources. Weigh their lives against the lives and freedom of each and every one of the freedmen you brought.

I would consider letting them die.  However, one of the reasons to end slavery is to help these people.  Many are very loyal to Dany because she shows empathy.  So some kind of middle ground solution might come up in the future.  

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Thoughts anyone? 

Dany is very impressive for her age.  Or any age for that matter.  Her leadership abilities far exceed that of anyone in her age group.  She's very intelligent and crafty.   But there is no way around the lack of experience.   Slaver's Bay will prepare her to deal with the lords of Westeros in the future.  Azor Ahai is tempering her Lightbringers in Slaver's Bay and she will be better prepared to battle the bad guys and the ice demons of Westeros.  

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2 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Holding children hostages and treating them like cupbearers allows you to influence them and turn their minds against slavery and their parents.  Holding an adult hostage will not accomplish those things.  Besides, keeping children hostage is the way of things on that world.     

We have seen with theon that when push comes to shove a child hostage prefers his familly over his nice captors.

But the main problem remains that by taking hostages and doing nothing to them when the killings continued danny showed that the nobles could keep helping the harpies and she would do nothing to their children. It weakens her and makes the hostages useless besides serving as spies against her.

2 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Actually, she did not let GG walk over her.  She kept them from inspecting her.  She did to them what she did to the Dothraki.  Ignored a silly custom which she did not agree with.  I say, good job Dany.  I hope to see this mind set continue when she arrives in Westeros.  I don't want her to let a boy get in front of the line to the throne.  

Not true. One of danny's laments is that she let herself be influenced by the mereenese culture instead of doing what she wanted. Hell, slave comerce continued happening right outside of mereen making all her efforts seem hollow.

2 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

It was risky and I would not have done it.  But Dany is a better leader and less selfish than I am. 

Putting your armies in danger of being anihilated risking the liberty of all the people she helped and follow her and her own life isn't being a good leader. It is being a very bad leader that doesn't think about the future. It was a nice gesture but completly idiotic for a leader.

2 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Dany is very impressive for her age.  Or any age for that matter.  Her leadership abilities far exceed that of anyone in her age group.  She's very intelligent and crafty.   But there is no way around the lack of experience.   Slaver's Bay will prepare her to deal with the lords of Westeros in the future.  Azor Ahai is tempering her Lightbringers in Slaver's Bay and she will be better prepared to battle the bad guys and the ice demons of Westeros. 

How can you call a person that had 3 dragons, 8k unsulied and the suport of several thousand people and ended up failing completly impressive or smart?

A much more acurate evaluation is that danny is a nice person that wants to help others but had no experience in rulling and therefore made a lot of mistakes. In a way it shows what we can expect from faegon.

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Her biggest mistake is inconsistency and her own teenage mind. If you are going to be a conqueror and threaten people into submission then be ready to actually back up your threats with violence and force. If you want to be merciful and king then be fully merciful and kind. Taking hostages and threatening their death then not doing it pisses over both premises. 

If you are going to marry then marry a Westerosi consort. Martel is not a hot sexy mercenary but banging a hot steaming mercenary is not going to seat you on the throne and it will ruin your marriage prospects. She will probably also not do the smart thing and marry Victarion. But she will marry Hizdar because hey, something something peace in a single city. 

The biggest mistake is staying in the first place. She should have looted every single city, burned it to the ground and pissed off. She got too attached to the slaves that are nothing to her.

All of her mistakes are leading to a culmination where Aegon gets everything she wants and that drives her to kill him and take it, garnering hate once again. Mad Queen

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17 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I'm drunk so i'll be brief, but your mistaking the iraq war for the war in Afghanistan. 

 

Jayzus. 

17 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I'll probably be back to talk about ASOiaf tomorrow when im sober. thank you and good night

I'd hope so. 

22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

He's a fantastic character, but not one to admire.

Welp then. 

5 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Actually, she did not let GG walk over her. 

GG is basically saying we won't follow you if you don't wear a tokar. 

 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

The biggest mistake is staying in the first place. She should have looted every single city, burned it to the ground and pissed off. She got too attached to the slaves that are nothing to her.

 

:agree:

17 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The Iraq War started over oil. (operation impending liberty). essentially the Bush government leaked to the new york times that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (atomic warheads) and then used the article as source for justification of invasion to depose Sadam and impose a puppet democratic government,  though they had no WMD and the act of war ultimately destabilized the region giving rise to ISIS.

 

Well, then. The idiots should've known better than to screw with the world oil trade, but that ain't the point of the thread. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dany's mistakes in Meereen: 

 

Man, you really hate Daario. Can't say I blame you, though. 

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3 hours ago, divica said:

How can you call a person that had 3 dragons, 8k unsulied and the suport of several thousand people and ended up failing completly impressive or smart?

 

Three dragons that are hardly more than hatchlings, but consider how much they fear dragons (kind of fear dragons). Use that. 

3 hours ago, divica said:

Putting your armies in danger of being anihilated risking the liberty of all the people she helped and follow her and her own life isn't being a good leader. It is being a very bad leader that doesn't think about the future. It was a nice gesture but completly idiotic for a leader.

 

Yessir. This is correct.

 

3 hours ago, divica said:

How can you call a person that had 3 dragons, 8k unsulied and the suport of several thousand people and ended up failing completly impressive or smart?

 

It makes her look like Aenys the Weak, the trembler. 

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4 hours ago, divica said:

 

How can you call a person that had 3 dragons, 8k unsulied and the suport of several thousand people and ended up failing completly impressive or smart?

 

She made  mistakes.  But, her forces were dwarfed by the numbers that the Slavers could muster.  Six legions from New Ghis is 30,000, plus Yunkish slave soldiers, armies from Qarth, Mantarys, Tolos, a huge armada from Volantis, thousands of sellswords, and vast navies.  Now, there  is reason to believe that this coalition is nothing like as strong on the inside as it appears from the outside, and will be destroyed in TWOW.  But, that information is not available to her. Her failure was partial, not total. 

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She made  mistakes.  But, her forces were dwarfed by the numbers that the Slavers could muster.  Six legions from New Ghis is 30,000, plus Yunkish slave soldiers, armies from Qarth, Mantarys, Tolos, a huge armada from Volantis, thousands of sellswords, and vast navies.  Now, there  is reason to believe that this coalition is nothing like as strong on the inside as it appears from the outside, and will be destroyed in TWOW.  But, that information is not available to her. Her failure was partial, not total. 

If you hit them with disciplined Unsullied and mounted, experienced sellswords quickly you might be able to overwhelm them, especially since we all know what troops and commanders the Yunkishmen have. And then you have the freedmen companies.

1. That armada is out at sea

2. We have no idea how large a "corps of Qartheen camelry" are, but I don't expect the Qartheen to be good troops.

3. Tolosi slingers could simply be killed with archers, I hope. 

4. Ah yes, because vast navies can definitely fight on land!    

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She made  mistakes.  But, her forces were dwarfed by the numbers that the Slavers could muster.  Six legions from New Ghis is 30,000, plus Yunkish slave soldiers, armies from Qarth, Mantarys, Tolos, a huge armada from Volantis, thousands of sellswords, and vast navies.  Now, there  is reason to believe that this coalition is nothing like as strong on the inside as it appears from the outside, and will be destroyed in TWOW.  But, that information is not available to her. Her failure was partial, not total. 

I wasn't talking about exact numbers during the war. It was more along the lines that at the beguining of dance she had a lot of means at her disposal and towards the end of the book because of her decisions she lost a lot of her man power. 

For example, why didn't she look for ways to use her dragons during the book? Why did she put 2 dragons in the dungeon and never looked for a better solution? Her decision to take the dragons out of the game cost her how many sellsword companies? Her way of dealing with the harpies cost her the control of mereen. How was the situation of the freedmen (I don t remember)? Why would she marry a mereenese if her final goal is westeros?

I can't argue war numbers with you because I really can't remember, but she had unsullied, freedman, some sellswords and sheepman? Besides walls... And she didn't have more men because of bad decisions until the war started.

And in regards to the volantene fleet they haven't arrived yet and is quite dubious if they won't be allies because of the red priests.

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On 5/7/2021 at 7:41 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

4. Marriage to Hizdahr. Why marry to solidify your rule over a city you won't be staying in? 

This was incredibly dumb and short sighted. She is having problems being acepted in mereen because she is a foreigner that doesn't know their traditions and her solution is to marry a mereenese. However her final goal is westeros where she is seen as a foreigner that doesn't know the westerosi traditions! She will face the same problems in westeros in adition to being married to a random dude from mereen.

I am starting to think that most of danny's problems are that she was shor sighted and didn't worry about the future when making decisions. Like for example how long she decided to keep her daliance with daario. Did she really think she can have a lover until her wedding and then keep the dude around and her husband and his men will accept it? That it won't spread bad rumors about her everywhere?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Her biggest mistake is inconsistency and her own teenage mind. If you are going to be a conqueror and threaten people into submission then be ready to actually back up your threats with violence and force. If you want to be merciful and king then be fully merciful and kind. Taking hostages and threatening their death then not doing it pisses over both premises. 

I agree about the inconsistency, but I think it wasn't a problem that she was inconsistent in her soft/hard approach. Her good cop to Skahaz's bad cop applied the right pressures. It was inconsistency in her ideology toward slavery. Don't tell Xaro to go buy his friend. Don't let people sell themselves. Don't force people to plow fields, only paying them food and water. And don't abandon a project like ending slavery after starting it. And yes, I consider burning everyone in a tokar and then leaving "abandonment." Not only are dragons the easy path, they are not even going to solve problems. I don't really agree with the idea that she has to be either noble and kind OR a conquering monster. What about balance??

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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