How did Ned find Lyanna after Robert's rebelion?

[Odej]

9 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We don't know. Full stop. Anyone that says otherwise is guessing or lying.

We know that. The point is theorize about it.

[Lord Lannister]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because only taking 6 people with him is passing strange for an attempt to free Lyanna.  Even stranger is that all 6 men that he took with him were people who were either very loyal to House Stark, or had some type of relationship with either Brandon or Lyanna.  

It's almost as if whatever he anticipated finding inside the tower, was something he wanted kept a closely held Stark secret.  Because it seems even Robert and Jon Arryn were kept in the dark of this operation.

I was always under this assumption, that Ned had an idea of what was going on and what he'd find there and thus only brought a small number of people that could reasonably be relied upon not to blab. 

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that Varys saved his own life and job by telling where Ned could find Lyanna. After all as a spymaster of the throne he had just killed a lot of people (including some VIPs) and so there should have been many people who wanted his death. So I suspect that Varys had to somehow prove his usefulness to new government just keep his head.

[Lord Lannister]

5 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that Varys saved his own life and job by telling where Ned could find Lyanna. After all as a spymaster of the throne he had just killed a lot of people (including some VIPs) and so there should have been many people who wanted his death. So I suspect that Varys had to somehow prove his usefulness to new government just keep his head.

That's an interesting conversation all by itself with how Varys switched camps. I always just figured he made himself scarce in the Red Keep until he got a chance to speak with Robert and convince him of his value. 

[FictionIsntReal]

10 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that Varys saved his own life and job by telling where Ned could find Lyanna. After all as a spymaster of the throne he had just killed a lot of people (including some VIPs) and so there should have been many people who wanted his death. So I suspect that Varys had to somehow prove his usefulness to new government just keep his head.

He would tell Robert, the actual new king. And Robert would have wanted more than 7 people sent for Lyanna. My guess is that Ned didn't know until after he relieved Storm's End, because otherwise he'd have gone after her earlier.

[Frey family reunion]

21 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

that is the question. Unless all three already considered rheagar to be the true king I suppose. Whent and Dayne may be a given, they were already with him. Hightower? maybe him staying was the only way rhaegar would agree to go?

I’ve held that assumption for a while, that they may have switched allegiances.  The problem is it goes contrary to this line from the White Bull in Eddard’s fever dream:

Quote

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

”Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Clearly the implication is that if they had been in King’s Landing, Aerys would still be king.  Not Rhaegar.  

So I don’t think they switched allegiances.  So I keep going back to the burning question.  Where does Rhaegar and his obsession with the prince that was promised and Summerhall align with the megalomaniacal Aerys who dreamed of being reborn as a dragon? Hint.  Hint.

[spearson]

I think this SSM gives us a clue that Ned was told about the Tower of Joy from Ashara.

Quote

 

fan:
 ... I will spare you the rest of my speculations about the date of Jon's birth, since their only real conclusion is that Catelyn seems a little thick when she thinks that Ned fathered Jon as he returned 'Dawn' to Ashara Dayne.

grrm:
As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He would tell Robert, the actual new king. And Robert would have wanted more than 7 people sent for Lyanna. My guess is that Ned didn't know until after he relieved Storm's End, because otherwise he'd have gone after her earlier.

Possibly. If Varys had tipped Ned off to Lyanna's location that would seem some relevant internal dialogue when Ned is considering if Varys is trustworthy or not in the first novel.

[Frey family reunion]

42 minutes ago, spearson said:

I think this SSM gives us a clue that Ned was told about the Tower of Joy from Ashara.

 

I took that to mean, that Ned would have been around Ashara before his trip to Starfall, so presumably he could have conceived Jon with her before that trip.

[Ser Leftwich]

Options include:

1) Ethan Glover. He was a prisoner in KL when Ned arrived and then also accompanies Ned to the ToJ. Rhaegar was in KL for some time before the Trident and could have talked to Ethan Glover.

2) Ashara Dayne. She was famously "not nailed to the floor in Starfall" and was reasonably acquainted with most of the parties involved. There is a wonderful tragic irony of her telling Ned the location and then Ned killing her brother.

3) Some random person.

Howland Reed will be able to tel us, when/if it even matters/comes up.

 

[Frey family reunion]

38 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Possibly. If Varys had tipped Ned off to Lyanna's location that would seem some relevant internal dialogue when Ned is considering if Varys is trustworthy or not in the first novel.

Perhaps it's what kept Varys from getting dismissed after Robert took power.  And by dismissed I mean, having his head lopped off.

[Lord Lannister]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps it's what kept Varys from getting dismissed after Robert took power.  And by dismissed I mean, having his head lopped off.

Robert was pretty eager to be buddies with everyone who fought against him unless their name was Targaryen. So him being singled out for an execution doesn't seem Robert's style.

[Mourning Star]

I have a theory, though obviously can't prove it.

Many have pointed out that Lem Lemoncloak is likely to be Richard Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses.

Richard Lonmouth was at the Tourney of Harrenhall and drinks with Robert, his lord. He is also one of the men to promise to unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree (possibly/probably Lyanna).

Richard Lonmouth was also Rhaegar Targaryen's squire. Meaning he may well have known Rhaegar's plans and about the Tower of Joy.

Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar's squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions.

We don't know much about where Lonmouth was during Robert's rebellion, or even what side he was on, his lord being Robert and his friend/prince being Rhaegar

I would suggest that after the Battle of Summerhall, Lem was taken to Stormsend where he remained for the length of the siege.

It's possible his wife and daughter died there, or during the Sack of King's Landing (which I personally prefer, as it gives Lem extra reasons for hating Lannisters). It's even possible that Lem was the informer who allowed Robert to win at Summerhall, or perhaps he was on the way to or from the Tower of Joy. At this point we can't know, but I do get the sense Lem has great regret over something.

When Ned raised the siege, Lem may have been the one to tell him about the Tower of Joy. This places Lem in a small group, with Howland Reed, as a possible source of truth for our characters about the past.

Lem, is that you? Still wearing that same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

[Mad King Bolton]

On 9/29/2021 at 2:42 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve held that assumption for a while, that they may have switched allegiances.  The problem is it goes contrary to this line from the White Bull in Eddard’s fever dream:

Clearly the implication is that if they had been in King’s Landing, Aerys would still be king.  Not Rhaegar.  

So I don’t think they switched allegiances.  So I keep going back to the burning question.  Where does Rhaegar and his obsession with the prince that was promised and Summerhall align with the megalomaniacal Aerys who dreamed of being reborn as a dragon? Hint.  Hint.

I have been really interested in this scenario for a long time. I believe that the kings guard were not aligned here. I believe Hightower and (was it Whent) were there from Aerys to ensure that rhaegar went to the trident (though I suppose Whent makes sense to be loyal with rhaegar over Aerys since things started at Harrenhal). Regardless, Arthur was there to ensure no harm came to Lyanna in case Aerys left a contingency plan (since he was a big of a cagey fellow). I’m fascinated to get the eventual details of how it all went down.

that’s my theory anyway, and would love to talk about it more. Or have it torn apart. All good.

 

just to address Aerys wanting to be reborn a dragon and rhaegar’s lamentations of summer hall I don’t think they’re aligned. Aerys and Rhaegar were incredibly misaligned to the point of incoming civil war. 

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

just to address Aerys wanting to be reborn a dragon and rhaegar’s lamentations of summer hall I don’t think they’re aligned. Aerys and Rhaegar were incredibly misaligned to the point of incoming civil war. 

Certainly before the Harrenhal tourney, things were really bad.  We know that Aerys’ paranoia was beginning to focus on Rhaegar.  As for Rhaegar, it’s less clear, but at the very least, judging from his conversation with Jaime, he was contemplating calling a Great Council, and presumably at least one of the reasons was to discuss removing his father from power.

But strangely, after Harrenhal, things seemed to have changed, at least in regards to Aerys’ attitude towards Rhaegar.  When Rhaegar rode off from King’s Landing, presumably with a number of Kingsguards in tow, it appears to have been with Aerys’ blessing.

There is no indication that the Kingsguards went awol.  We are told that they were the last persons that Aerys trusted (with the exception of Jaime).  And based on their conversations with Eddard, they remained good Kingsguards throughout.  Which implies that they remained loyal to the king throughout.

And Aerys in arresting and executing Brandon, is perversely showing a bit of loyalty to Rhaegar, even though it’s almost certain that Rhaegar would not have appreciated the gesture.

Then when Rhaegar returns rom the south, Aerys willingly hands over the royal army to him, and he listens to Rhaegar’s council and sends a raven to Casterly Rock.

As for Rhaegar, it appears that his attitude towards Aerys probably hasn’t really changed.  In fact, it appears that he has become more certain of the need to call a Great Council, presumably due in part to Aerys’ fiery executions of Brandon, Rickard, and Chelsted.  

But nevertheless it appears that there has been something else that had preoccupied Rhaegar, which had stayed his hand in removing the King.  My guess it has to do with Rhaegar’s preoccupation with the prince that was promised prophecy.

And if Rhaegar shared Aemon’s belief that the prince that was promised was destined to lead the battle for the dawn, it’s no wonder.  Rhaegar was probably of the belief that a second Long Night was coming, and he bore great responsibility in both creating and preparing the prince that was promised.  My guess is for Rhaegar everything else fell by the waist side.

So when it comes to what would have brought the two together, at least temporarily, the only thing that I can think of is the hatching of dragons.  Based on Aemon’s ramblings to Sam, it appears that dragons were needed to help fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy.  While the Worldbook makes it clear that Aerys was also very interested in the hatching of dragons.  My guess is that his obsession with becoming a dragon, may have been more thought out and planned than we realize.

I think what Aerys was planning was both the hatching of a dragon, and the transferring of his psyche/soul into the dragon.  Using the fiery sacrifice of all of King’s Landing to implement his goal.  

So I wonder, if perhaps Rhaegar, had at least temporarily convinced the king that he could hatch a dragon without the need to destroy all of King’s Landing.  And it was because of Rhaegar’s ultimate demise at the Trident, when Aerys decided to go ahead with his original plan.

Granted, all speculation, but it does serve to explain some odd details.

[FictionIsntReal]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So when it comes to what would have brought the two together, at least temporarily, the only thing that I can think of is the hatching of dragons.

The Targaryens had no dragon eggs by that point.

[Frey family reunion]

32 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Targaryens had no dragon eggs by that point.

I’m not sure of your source for that.  We know that after Duskendale, Aerys was trying to hatch dragon eggs:

Quote

In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

And it was these failures that had him turn to the pyromancers. 

We aren’t told that he destroyed all of the dragon eggs in his attempts.  All we know is that he couldn’t hatch any of them.  So presumably they or some of them still existed at the time of the rebellion.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 9/28/2021 at 4:06 AM, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that Varys saved his own life and job by telling where Ned could find Lyanna. After all as a spymaster of the throne he had just killed a lot of people (including some VIPs) and so there should have been many people who wanted his death. So I suspect that Varys had to somehow prove his usefulness to new government just keep his head.

Always what I figured to, or a variant of it. I don't know if Ned would have threatened Varys' life over it, but Varys coming to Ned to tell him where his sister was and why he should bring a close coterie makes sense. It saves the life of someone Varys might* hold dear as well as enables Ned to protect his sister.

* Assume that Varys is loyal to the realm / targs and he knows Jon is the son of Rhaegar

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Always what I figured to, or a variant of it. I don't know if Ned would have threatened Varys' life over it, but Varys coming to Ned to tell him where his sister was and why he should bring a close coterie makes sense. It saves the life of someone Varys might* hold dear as well as enables Ned to protect his sister.

* Assume that Varys is loyal to the realm / targs and he knows Jon is the son of Rhaegar

The problem with that theory is that Ned is presented to most of the council first time in AGOT.

So... We would have to admit that Ned kinda forgot about a pretty relevant detail.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 hours ago, frenin said:

The problem with that theory is that Ned is presented to most of the council first time in AGOT.

So... We would have to admit that Ned kinda forgot about a pretty relevant detail.

 

Book just says that Ned doesn’t like Varys. That could be for any number of reasons (eg associating Lyannas death with his inaction, being a spy, whatever), not reminiscing on it is hardly a substantive problem. He barely thinks about the situation at all until he gets into his fever dream anyway