The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)

[Poobah]

33 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Does free will exist in Jordan’s Universe… can it?

This is part of the question that brought acclaimed Age of Legends philosopher Elan Morin Tedronai to side with the Dark One.

Personally I think the answer is yes with somewhat of an asterisk. Jordan's Universe supports some kind of many worlds interpretation, as seen through the portal stones which clearly demonstrates that other outcomes are possible. I would argue that the world in which the story takes place is the "main" branch or whatever because it's the one which takes the golden path to victory via everyone making the right choices, rather than the other way around as it were. Even within the constraints of assuming everyone is limited to the "will of the pattern" and the idea that prophecy is inviolate it does seem there is some choice in how these things come about - Min knows this from the start but the ta'veren eventually figure out that they have much more control over their destinies if they sail with the wind rather than against it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Min knows this from the start but the ta'veren eventually figure out that they have much more control over their destinies if they sail with the wind rather than against it.

So, you have free will… if you choose to do what the Universe wants… you… to… do…

:|
 

Was Robert Jordan a Presbyterian… by chance?

[Ran]

55 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Does free will exist in Jordan’s Universe… can it?

 I would say yes, for the general mass of humanity, but ta'veren can end up jabbed and prodded very heavily by the Wheel. Especially the Heroes of the Horn (which includes the Dragon) when spun out for a "high" purpose, as Jordan referred to it.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, sologdin said:

is this debate about the plausibility of mass heal sorcery merely a matter of purist v. non-purist adaptation preference, or is there something about it that makes this impossible setting even more impossible in the filmed version?

We don't know. There could potentially be carry over consequences, or this could change very little.

@Ser Scot A Ellison

Robert Jordan described himself as a high church Episcopalian. Along that line, I would say free will within the Pattern can be envisioned as it would be free will within the parameters of the Episcopalian religion: you have an omniscient God that designed you and knows the ultimate fate of the design as the God constructs you, yet somehow you have free will. It's a contradictory system that only works because you are pushing the narrative that free will still exists in that system...somehow.

Likewise within a world of prophecies, which necessitate an order to the event of things, somehow throwing in the chaos of free will works out. Does it make sense? No. But that's how it stands.

[sologdin]

ta'veren eventually figure out that they have much more control over their destinies if they sail with the wind rather than against it.

nice. the dialectic of pietas and furor in the aeneid.  nothing new under the sun.

 

chaos of free will works out

is it an epistemological problem, rather than ontological? that is, omniscience views all possible worlds unfolding nonlinearly and thus knows how they all turn out, whereas individual human perspective sees one world and can make only the most rudimentary predictions, thus creating an apparent freedom that diminishes as knowledge increases in quality or quantity?

this is one implication of an argument in jean luc nancy's the deconstruction of christianity--that monotheism's abolition of polytheism intrinsically contains atheism insofar as god-as-immanent-personality is abolished and replaced with god-as-transcendent-principle. the greek gods are persons with defective characteristics and epistemological limitations (zeus becomes a bit less fallible in this regard when upgraded to jove, but still remains as yet a person), whereas YHWH in his fullness is stripped of personality. 

the early hebrew texts--J and E, say--are openly henotheist/monolatrous, and thus retain some polytheistic theological characteristics--jealousy of other gods, say.  this shit goes buhbye later, requiring intercession by the personality of christ, who may or may not be a separate avatar of the principle. good times.  the transcendent principle is omniscient, whereas the henotheist YHWH in the garden lacks omniscience and must obtain information through sense perceptions: "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good." gen. 1:25 (emphasis added). he asks questions for information:  "And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (gen. 3:9) and "And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" (gen. 3:11). 

jordan's creator seems a transcendent principle, never appearing in text, no?

[IFR]

12 minutes ago, sologdin said:

is it an epistemological problem, rather than ontological? that is, omniscience views all possible worlds unfolding nonlinearly and thus knows how they all turn out, whereas individual human perspective sees one world and can make only the most rudimentary predictions, thus creating an apparent freedom that diminishes as knowledge increases in quality or quantity?

That's my view on the matter of freedom of will vis-a-vis omniscient creator. It's inherently contradictory, circumvented only with the caveat that the creator is omnipotent too, in which case the logic of contradictions need not apply.

A similar workaround is no doubt in action with the Creator and the Pattern. 

12 minutes ago, sologdin said:

jordan's creator seems a transcendent principle, never appearing in text, no?

What is supposed as the Creator makes brief textual appearances.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Does free will exist in Jordan’s Universe… can it?

Yes, it does. For small actions, the Pattern just doesn't care, and rolls with your choices. For bigger actions, especially from ta'veren, there is resistance, but as we see with Rand's story in particular, that isn't insurmountable, and you can go to the point of destroying the Pattern, and there's nothing it can throw up to prevent you. 

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

is this debate about the plausibility of mass heal sorcery merely a matter of purist v. non-purist adaptation preference, or is there something about it that makes this impossible setting even more impossible in the filmed version?

It's just that having Nynaeve do something this big this soon makes it hard to imagine future scenes where, if she could do this, the tension will be a lot less. 

[IFR]

15 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, it does. For small actions, the Pattern just doesn't care, and rolls with your choices. For bigger actions, especially from ta'veren, there is resistance, but as we see with Rand's story in particular, that isn't insurmountable, and you can go to the point of destroying the Pattern, and there's nothing it can throw up to prevent you

I would point out that the Pattern has never been destroyed, and prophecies invariably come true in this world (as far as I'm aware). I think due to these factors, free will falls into the category of apparent free will.

But this potentially could end up as an endless debate in its own right. If you are able to choose to have bacon and eggs for breakfast unless the Pattern is opposed to it, and all your choices must invariably align with the Pattern, do you really have a choice? Etc.

[Werthead]

I remember one discussion - I think it's even noted in the books - that the victory of the Light is self-obviously inevitable because if the Dark One wins, even once, it would remake space and time in its own image, meaning that our heroes will win because if they don't, they would not exist.

There are "degrees" of victory though.

[sologdin]

if the Dark One wins, even once, it would remake space and time in its own image, meaning that our heroes will win because if they don't, they would not exist.

as i recall it, the phrase is the dark one wants to 'touch the world,' which means that he's also a transcendent deity less locked in prison than locked out.  that he wants to be an immanent deity is curious--reversing the process of monotheization. totally caveat emptor.  

[Spockydog]

Just heard that the lad playing Mat is leaving, and his role is to be recast. That's a real shame - was really digging his performance. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I remember one discussion - I think it's even noted in the books - that the victory of the Light is self-obviously inevitable because if the Dark One wins, even once, it would remake space and time in its own image, meaning that our heroes will win because if they don't, they would not exist.

There are "degrees" of victory though.

That is indeed established and it means that none of the 'post-apocalyptic quality' parallel worlds we see in TGH actually see the Dark One free and victorious. Which is rather significant considering 'Lews Therin' died in quite a few of those.

And as I said above - the Dark One himself must be quite aware that he is a completely impotent failure and will never get out of his cage since, being beyond space and time, he must experience everything at the same time, meaning he knew even before there was a Bore that the Bore would eventually be sealed by Lews Therin and that he himself would be eventually be defeated by Rand al'Thor.

As for free will - that isn't really a thing in this world. At least not like it is in an Judeo-Christian tradition. The Wheel of Time just weaves a pattern from all the threads it is given - which are the individual people. But the Wheel doesn't have 'a plan' as such - apparently. At least that's one theory that has been given so far. Somehow, though, folks together forming a pattern then end up being 'a bigger picture' which kind of influences society and the world at large.

Jordan actually has his characters use this metaphysical theory as justification for societal differences, i.e. a peasant is a peasant because the pattern will it so, a king is a king because the pattern wills it so, etc. And we also see how the ta'veren mess with that in the books, since Rand is, quite childishly, constantly mistaken for a lord or a prince, presumably because his power as a ta'veren can reshape societal reality.

In addition, free will as a choice between good and evil isn't a thing for the channelers since the Dark One can turn them to his side by ways of a special evil ritual involving thirteen evil channelers and thirteen Myrddraal. This clashes with all concepts of free will since you are forced to be evil if you suffered through this - I don't know the details since I only heard about that thing in theory and didn't see it in practice yet.

Though at the same time you are also supposed to come back to the light at any time if you want to, so the chance for redemption is always there.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

But if they both just tried to run away there's zero chance he'd have murdered his wife with his own hand. I just cannot see how I'm supposed to want this character to go into battle again, let alone cheer on his courage and resolve against evil. The biggest evil in this dude's life is that he killed his wife. 

I mean storytelling 101 is that this guy's happy ending is that he finds a place of peace to put his talents to use and never does violence again, never has to risk hurting anyone else at all. Making him soldier on isn't brave or heroic, it's horrifying!

I think the whole thing works even better if you think about Perrin's later weird relationship with Faile. In light of what he did to his first wife he would be very reluctant to enter into another relationship. In the books there is given no reason why the guy shouldn't want to have a relationship with Faile - or any woman, for that matter. But originally he doesn't want that - for no reason.

I think the reason why he wouldn't join the Tinkers is quite obvious - they cannot defend themselves against evil people and Shadowspawn and he, Perrin, is hunted by both. Joining the Tinkers would mean he gets himself and them killed eventually.

[Caligula_K3]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Just heard that the lad playing Mat is leaving, and his role is to be recast. That's a real shame - was really digging his performance. 

Oh no! I think he's by far the best actor of the Three Rivers crew. That's a really huge loss for the show.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

I would point out that the Pattern has never been destroyed, and prophecies invariably come true in this world (as far as I'm aware). I think due to these factors, free will falls into the category of apparent free will.

It has never been destroyed... So far. I don't think there's any guarantee it cannot be destroyed. Since Rand is moments from doing just that, and only his personal choice prevents him from doing so, I'd say that makes free will very real, in this world. 

2 hours ago, IFR said:

But this potentially could end up as an endless debate in its own right. If you are able to choose to have bacon and eggs for breakfast unless the Pattern is opposed to it, and all your choices must invariably align with the Pattern, do you really have a choice? Etc.

That's not how it is. The Pattern doesn't care what you have for breakfast, in so far as it "cares" at all.

Moiraine repeatedly claims, with the text backing her up, that the Wheel and the Pattern do not have any morality.

To me,.the Wheel/Pattern can best be described as a kind of computer with the main goal of keeping reality going, calculating probabilities of various events contributing to it's survival or failure. What shape that reality takes is entirely irrelevant, except for those actions that can lead to the Dark One's total victory. There, the Pattern has "antibodies" chosen souls bound to it, and currently alive souls it confers special corrective abilities to, so that they can guide the lives around them to break through existing socioeconomic barriers to achieve results that are otherwise blocked.

It does so primarily by playing with chance. Ta'veren cannot force you to do anything, and we see several instances of even Rand's ta'veren pull being resisted. But what ta'veren do is increase the odds that some fairly remote choices will be made. They're weighted dice, which is quite literal in it's manifestation around Mat. Further, this is an effect channelers can actually replicate, over small regions. It's a Talent, though we don't know of a character in the stories who has this Talent.

Fortellings do come true, in this world, but that seems more predictive rather than prescriptive. For instance, the Dragon Reborn needs to be free to fulfill the Prophesies is something multiple characters argue. But there are Prophesies that literally call for the Dragon to be killed, if certain conditions aren't met. That both can coexist shows that Prophesied are merely predictions of high probability events, not guarantees.

To add to this, we know Dreamers can also predict events, but these are not guarantees, usually, just possiblities. However, some Dreams reveal highly probably events, not unlike Foretellings, which again, to me, says these aren't inevitable, just more probably given other things that have already happened. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is indeed established and it means that none of the 'post-apocalyptic quality' parallel worlds we see in TGH actually see the Dark One free and victorious. Which is rather significant considering 'Lews Therin' died in quite a few of those.

This is proof of nothing. Parallel worlds with the Dark One free wouldn't look like this world at all. That humans cannot touch those "Worlds of If" isn't proof of their non-existence, just proof that they are too different for human technology to breach through to. 

That surviving the Dark One without the Dragon is possible, we already know. He has been turned. Or almost turned. Or, based on one Prophesy, killed by his own side, in other Turnings. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And as I said above - the Dark One himself must be quite aware that he is a completely impotent failure and will never get out of his cage since, being beyond space and time, he must experience everything at the same time, meaning he knew even before there was a Bore that the Bore would eventually be sealed by Lews Therin and that he himself would be eventually be defeated by Rand al'Thor.

Since the Dark One doesn't experience time, it is bizarre to claim he should know he's a failure based on the current experience of the characters in the world, who do experience time, and are therefore in those possible realities where the Dark One hasn't won to date. The Dark One is in no rush. Time is meaningless to it. Why would it think itself a failure?

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As for free will - that isn't really a thing in this world. At least not like it is in an Judeo-Christian tradition. The Wheel of Time just weaves a pattern from all the threads it is given - which are the individual people. But the Wheel doesn't have 'a plan' as such - apparently. At least that's one theory that has been given so far. Somehow, though, folks together forming a pattern then end up being 'a bigger picture' which kind of influences society and the world at large.

The Wheel's "plan" is survival. Survival of the ability of threads to make a Pattern, which can take any number of shapes. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jordan actually has his characters use this metaphysical theory as justification for societal differences, i.e. a peasant is a peasant because the pattern will it so, a king is a king because the pattern wills it so, etc. 

Lol what?

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, free will as a choice between good and evil isn't a thing for the channelers since the Dark One can turn them to his side by ways of a special evil ritual involving thirteen evil channelers and thirteen Myrddraal. This clashes with all concepts of free will since you are forced to be evil if you suffered through this - I don't know the details since I only heard about that thing in theory and didn't see it in practice yet.

So if free will can be taken away, it follows that it does not exist? What kind of thinking is that?

A channeler could use Air to keep you motionless, and therefore take away your freedom to type uninformed drivel in this thread. Much as some of us would celebrate this, it's hard to imagine even you'd claim free will has been abolished from the world completely because of this. For one thing, the channeler used free will to bind you, just as 13 channelers would need to act to Turn another, and another set of channelers had to freely choose to meld the Dark Ones essence with living souls to create Shadowspawn in the first place.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Though at the same time you are also supposed to come back to the light at any time if you want to, so the chance for redemption is always there.

Indeed it is. Compulsion doesn't take away the existence of choice. Though unexplored, it is very possible that Nynaeve can reverse being Turned, since she figures out a way to reverse taint induced madness, which is also shown to be a Compulsion built of the Dark One's essence. 

[fionwe1987]

31 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Oh no! I think he's by far the best actor of the Three Rivers crew. That's a really huge loss for the show.

I'd like to know more about this secret Third River! 

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is proof of nothing. Parallel worlds with the Dark One free wouldn't look like this world at all. That humans cannot touch those "Worlds of If" isn't proof of their non-existence, just proof that they are too different for human technology to breach through to. 

The claim is that if the Dark One were free in one world, he would destroy/remake all the others as well as the one he is free in, meaning the very fact that our guys aren't dead/non-existent but continue their fight against the Dark One and win is proof that he was never freed - and will never be freed - in any possible world.

If he was freed in a possible future he would also unmake all the pasts, i.e. also the one in which our guys are still struggling.

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That surviving the Dark One without the Dragon is possible, we already know. He has been turned. Or almost turned. Or, based on one Prophesy, killed by his own side, in other Turnings.

If the Dragon had been turned could then Lews Therin and Rand even exist? Or would he have sold himself to the Dark One for good, i.e. like Ishamael and the others? Could he even be a force for good in the next incarnation if he joined the Dark One? As Mr. Evil the Dragon would be another Forsaken, after all.

I for one don't buy Ishamael's weird claim that Rand ever served him or the Dark One in the past. That is, so far and to my knowledge, just this evil madman's claim. Is there any indication that the Dragon was ever a Darkfriend/Forsaken.

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Since the Dark One doesn't experience time, it is bizarre to claim he should know he's a failure based on the current experience of the characters in the world, who do experience time, and are therefore in those possible realities where the Dark One hasn't won to date. The Dark One is in no rush. Time is meaningless to it. Why would it think itself a failure?

The Dark One being outside time exists. He perceives stuff somehow. From the moment he directly touched time he would, at the timeless place where he is, experience everything he can experience in the world at the same time. Meaning from the moment the Bore connected him to the world he would have known and perceived how Lews Therin would seal him away and how/that Rand would seal him away for good.

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Wheel's "plan" is survival. Survival of the ability of threads to make a Pattern, which can take any number of shapes. 

No, wheel just creates patterns. If you burn all the threads then it wouldn't do anything anymore and it wouldn't bother. It isn't sentient.

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Lol what?

We have metaphysical speculation (Wheel of Time, patterns, etc.) explain/determine/justify political and social realities.

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So if free will can be taken away, it follows that it does not exist? What kind of thinking is that?

A channeler could use Air to keep you motionless, and therefore take away your freedom to type uninformed drivel in this thread. Much as some of us would celebrate this, it's hard to imagine even you'd claim free will has been abolished from the world completely because of this. For one thing, the channeler used free will to bind you, just as 13 channelers would need to act to Turn another, and another set of channelers had to freely choose to meld the Dark Ones essence with living souls to create Shadowspawn in the first place.

LOL, you don't seem to understand free will in a philosophical/theological context. The idea is that in a world where there are good and evil deities (or demons) you are free to choose between good and evil. You cannot be forced to be evil by a powerful demon/god. That's also basically the core of Christianity - neither god nor the devil can force you to be good or evil against your will.

If this weren't so you are not responsible for your sins and evil deeds.

Jordan's concept of 'free will' is at least inconsistent but I'd actually say he never much bothered with such elaborate concepts. I mean, there is no afterlife in this world, apparently, no god who bothers rewarding good guys, so why bother with anything, really?

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Indeed it is. Compulsion doesn't take away the existence of choice. Though unexplored, it is very possible that Nynaeve can reverse being Turned, since she figures out a way to reverse taint induced madness, which is also shown to be a Compulsion built of the Dark One's essence. 

The compulsion thing is one of the things were Jordan tried to stay within a Chrisian framework. Bad guys can push you to do evil, but they cannot take you over, cannot really force you. We get this in detail in Liandrin's POV when she explains to us that she cannot really force people to do they bidding but she is very good and convincing them, anyway.

But when you can also twist somebody into a Darkfriend/Shadowlord via the One Power + Myrddraals then you change that person on a fundamental level. You rewrite their mind and preferences so that they no longer have the choice to not serve the Dark One. And that's a completely different concept.

[El Kabong]

20 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Oh no. I hate it when you find out people you liked say things that you disagree with and lose a little respect for them.

Shad, of Shadiversity Youtube fame is a medieval enthusiast who puts out a  lot of information videos. I found them interesting. He is also reviewing Wheel of Time with friends and he, and mostly his friend, dislike the show for reasons I don't respect. (hint: the words "woke" and "agenda" are used liberally). I can respect reasoned criticism while also disagreeing, but criticizing something without examining why a change might be made and blaming the strawman of woke Hollywood agenda and "them" for all that's bad and making Lan a pussy, sorry - can't get on board. Also borrowing trouble from the future show and being upset that Elayne and Aviendha might be bi is worth throwing a fit over right now! To be fair, Shad himself doesn't quite go to the 'woke' well, but he skirts it and really sets it up for his friend (who hasn't read the book) to hit the softball out of the park and then they laugh together, so he's not really pushing back a lot. Shad is more along the book purist lines and will call out the things he likes, but he really gives his friend free reign to be an ass.

Oy. The Woke of Time people(as I call them) amuse me greatly. Jordan would smack the crap out of them with his staff.

[El Kabong]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Just heard that the lad playing Mat is leaving, and his role is to be recast. That's a real shame - was really digging his performance. 

They actually announced that before the show even premiered but they are, wisely IMO, not bringing it up at the moment.

Also, I've been saying Aes Sedai correctly all these years! Everything else.. not so much.

[IFR]

36 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

It has never been destroyed...so far.

I view this as a semantic difference. In all the countless realities, in all the countless spinnings of the Wheel, the Pattern has not been destroyed. Odds that low can be considered effectively zero.

I don't recall anywhere in the books suggesting there are realities where the Dark One is freed.

57 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Since Rand is moments from doing just that, and only his personal choice prevents him from doing so, I'd say that makes free will very real, in this world. 

Rand is moments from destroying the Pattern...yet doesn't. And never has. Hence the appearance of free will. It doesn't matter what goes on in your mind when you make an inevitable decision, all that matters is that the decision is inevitable.

Ultimately, I would argue that evidence of inevitable events is sufficient to say everything operates on predeterminism, regardless of the existence of less clear prophecies. Particularly when dealing with a timescale like the eternal turning of the Wheel, or the breadth infinite other worlds.

Events always lead up to the Dragon not freeing the Dark One or destroying the Pattern (whether because he's killed or decides not to or is incapacitated). That means that every external factor, including decisions of "free will", related to the Dark One must comply with this path that leads to the Dark One not being free.

If low probability events do not occur in an infinite timescale over infinite dimensions, then the sense of these events having an associate probability loses meaning.