Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

So it seems like Dany will produce another living child and the red comet will make another appearance.  I wonder what that will portend.

Possibly the actual Prince or Princess that was Promised? Said child will require a father, and we could have a union of ice (Jon) and fire (Dany) to create a balance and cross between the two. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Possibly the actual Prince or Princess that was Promised? Said child will require a father, and we could have a union of ice (Jon) and fire (Dany) to create a balance and cross between the two. 

I think that Dany is the Princess that was Promised.  There won't be a union or marriage between Dany and Jon in the traditional sense.  Hard to know who Dany's baby will be.  Boy or girl.  Or who the father will be.

I think Jon will become the personification of the soul of ice and heart of darkness, a supernatural being filled with vengeance and hatred for living things.  His soul will have to to be cleansed and transformed by fire in the end. Fire (life, light and love) represents the opposite of ice (darkness, death and hate). It's the only cure.  Dany will have a part to play in that transformation.  And so will Bran, because if he doesn't find a solution; then the soul of ice could prevail and all life will end.  This would be a merging or joining of souls on a spiritual level. 

I suspect any real life marriages between ice and fire will happen with Aegon and Sansa at the end.

Of course anything I say is just guessing. 

My overall point is that RLJ operates under the assumption that Jon will take after his father and be a fiery dragon.  That's never really been questioned.  I think it's more likely that he will be an ice dragon; one side of the problem rather than the balance between fire and ice bloodlines.

 

[LynnS]

Sticking with the theme that light is the most effective weapon against the darkness and the Others/wights;  I'm guessing the Dawn sword can generate enough light to push back the darkness.   So we get the bit about the light that brings the dawn.  I also think that to be worthy of the dawn sworn, the one who claims it must have a matching inner light; a shining soul in other words. 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

 I think Ned draws a distinction here between the vows a knight takes to protect and defend the innocent and helpless and vows to protect the king, even if that conflicts with their first vows as a knight.  Some comments from another thread:

I wonder about the Ghost of High Heart and Rhaegar's solo trips to Summerhall.  It seems to me that he would seek out the wood witch responsible for the PWIP prophesy to learn more about it.  Highly speculative on my part since everything about it is off page; what if Rhaegar traded dreams for songs and was given some cryptic information about the wolf girl?  Did he recognise Lyanna at the tourney and know something about her fate.  He sings a sad song which most readers interpret as the song of ice and fire. 

But that is not really a song as much as its an unfinished story where everyone plays a part.  I think the song may have been Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.  I wonder if Rhaegar had foreknowledge of Aerys burning father and son and if Lyanna would also meet a fiery end the same as Jenny at Aerys' hand.  I wonder if he was comparing Lyanna to Jenny and this motivated him to give Lyanna flowers for her hair.  So in my off page version of RLJ; he took Lyanna to prevent Aerys from sacrificing her to the flames having been warned by the Old Gods through the GOHH. 

Since we know that Jon can be located at Starfall at some point;  is it possible that Ned honors Arthur for giving Lyanna and Jon a knight's protection?

Ned's comment about the KG once being a shining example of knighthood brings me to Jaime's redemption arc and whether Brienne will transform him into the perfect knight worthy of the Dawn sword.

Will light be his armor, his shield?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

 

 

[Black Crow]

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

How so?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

Woods Witches are connected to the CotF in my understanding (hello Quaithe).

A Woods Witch repaired Mance's black nightwatch coat with red silk (Targaryen colours!).

The doom of Valyria may have caused the first long night (imagine the Yellowstone caldera blowing off - Europe would most likely freeze).

The CotF want to find out a start wandering among the humans - wearing human faces and a glamour?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria

I suppose for the same reason the old gods sent Ned a dream about the red comet and the white walkers?  So readers could puzzle over it?  

 

[LynnS]

I suppose we could also consider the Brotherhood without Banners, followers of R'hllor and their association with the Ghost of High and the old gods.

Radio Westeros E9 - The Brotherhood Without Banners - YouTube

Or why Jaqen makes an oath to all the gods and Him of Fire.

You could call it a merging of agendas.

[asongofheresy]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

Brilliant question, wasn't Jenny married to a Targaryen heir that lost his throne due to their marriage? Plus its always possible for GoHH/Jenny to know about Targaryens prophetic past so they could use it to manipulate the family. 

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

I still think it’s a bit of an assumption that the prophecy is Targaryen.  It could very well be a Westerosi prophecy for all we know.  My own assumption is that the prophecy sprung from the Rhoynes when their civilization was destroyed.  They were the ones who saw their cities dies in smoke and salt.  So it makes a bit of sense that their savior would come back in the same.  But regardless the source of the prophecy, it seems that these fortune tellers aren’t limited in to a specific culture.  Melisandre has both used the prince that was promised prophecy and the Azhor Ahai prophecy in her own visions.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I still think it’s a bit of an assumption that the prophecy is Targaryen.  It could very well be a Westerosi prophecy for all we know.  My own assumption is that the prophecy sprung from the Rhoynes when their civilization was destroyed.  They were the ones who saw their cities dies in smoke and salt.  So it makes a bit of sense that their savior would come back in the same.  But regardless the source of the prophecy, it seems that these fortune tellers aren’t limited in to a specific culture.  Melisandre has both used the prince that was promised prophecy and the Azhor Ahai prophecy in her own visions.

Half-remembered prophecies, wonders and terrors:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

"Or?" said Sam.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." He stretched, smiling his lazy smile. "That's worth a round, I'd say."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

Ser Jorah saved me from the poisoner, and Arstan Whitebeard from the manticore. Perhaps Strong Belwas will save me from the next. He was huge enough, with arms like small trees and a great curved arakh so sharp he might have shaved with it, in the unlikely event of hair sprouting on those smooth brown cheeks. Yet he was childlike as well. As a protector, he leaves much to be desired. Thankfully, I have Ser Jorah and my bloodriders. And my dragons, never forget. In time, the dragons would be her most formidable guardians, just as they had been for Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters three hundred years ago. Just now, though, they brought her more danger than protection. In all the world there were but three living dragons, and those were hers; they were a wonder, and a terror, and beyond price.

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

"IRONMEN," said Euron Greyjoy, "you have heard my horn. Now hear my words. I am Balon's brother, Quellon's eldest living son. Lord Vickon's blood is in my veins, and the blood of the Old Kraken. Yet I have sailed farther than any of them. Only one living kraken has never known defeat. Only one has never bent his knee. Only one has sailed to Asshai by the Shadow, and seen wonders and terrors beyond imagining . . ."

 

Of course Euron is bragging.  Marwyn, Mirri Maz Duur and Quaithe have all been to Asshai.

I think that whatever is about to engulf the world; this new age of terror and wonders, heroes and demons; the signs and portents are showing up in prophecies and dreams in Essos and Westeros.

[LynnS]

Coming back to the question of the Others, this what Sam discovers:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or . . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

 

Annals: a record of events year by year.

It curious that the records mention the Others more than once although not very often.  

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Coming back to the question of the Others, this what Sam discovers:

Annals: a record of events year by year.

It curious that the records mention the Others more than once although not very often.  

 

That's exactky the point of the passage; GRRM is using Sam to tell us that there's something fishy going on and that the very few Walkers we've seen are all there are; that there are no great armies of icy warriors sweeping down from the north. Instead there is a mystery to be solved.

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's exactky the point of the passage; GRRM is using Sam to tell us that there's something fishy going on and that the very few Walkers we've seen are all there are; that there are no great armies of icy warriors sweeping down from the north. Instead there is a mystery to be solved.

We're not told how many Others or if they come in any kind of force.  Unless you consider the undead a part of their number.  But they seemed to have made several appearances over the years.  We haven't really heard what the wildlings have to say about it yet and I wonder if the appearance of the Others corresponds with various attempts by the Kings beyond the Wall to get the population out of harm's way.  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We're not told how many Others or if they come in any kind of force.  Unless you consider the undead a part of their number.  But they seemed to have made several appearances over the years.  We haven't really heard what the wildlings have to say about it yet and I wonder if the appearance of the Others corresponds with various attempts by the Kings beyond the Wall to get the population out of harm's way.  

Sam was charged with looking for information on the Others, the enemy who are the whole raison d'etre for that Watch and yet GRRM tells us through Sam that there's next to nothing in the records - and even that we must suspect is half remembered tales from long ago rather than direct eyewitness testimony. We do know they exist, we've met them, but all that we've seen and presumably all that Sam can find are these few scattered individuals. Dangerous yes, and something very nasty in the woodpile, but not an icy horde and that raises real questions anent their true identity

[LynnS]

Radio Westeros E47 - We Should Start Back (prologue) - YouTube

[LongRider]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:30 AM, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

Could a Woods Witch birth the PTWP?  I’m thinking of the babe who is now down south with Gilly. 
Some have wondered if Dalla and Val are WW’s.  Are they?  Could they have be deceitful?

[LynnS]

Radio Westeros E03 Melisandre of Asshai - YouTube

 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

Could a Woods Witch birth the PTWP?  I’m thinking of the babe who is now down south with Gilly. 
Some have wondered if Dalla and Val are WW’s.  Are they?  Could they have be deceitful?

All things are possible, but what I'm suggesting is that since we have an imported prophecy regarding the Targaryens which pre-dates the Conquest, the input by a Westerosi woods witch has to be questionable. Its all very well having common prophecies of a chosen one, but why so specific? This sounds like being told/encouraged what certain Targaryens want to hear

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All things are possible, but what I'm suggesting is that since we have an imported prophecy regarding the Targaryens which pre-dates the Conquest, the input by a Westerosi woods witch has to be questionable. Its all very well having common prophecies of a chosen one, but why so specific? This sounds like being told/encouraged what certain Targaryens want to hear

I sometimes wonder who is messing with the visions and dreams.  Considering that BR and Bran break into Mel's fire vision.  Especially since she keeps asking to see R'hllor's instrument or king and sees Jon Snow instead of Stannis.  She might think her mail is going to R'hllor, but is it?