The Kithamar Trilogy by Daniel Abraham

[JGP]

16 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The characters in Blade of Dream are absolutely more engaging overall than the ones from Age of Ash.

Felt the absence of Sammish, myself.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, JGP said:

Felt the absence of Sammish, myself.

She was the best character in the first story...

[Underfoot]

Finished this one up today! Coming right on the heels of an Age of Ash re-read, it was almost shocking how different this book felt. The themes around love (in all its different aspects) and the POV characters we spend time with make the story and the city much less bleak and seem much less cruel. There's beauty and wonder in the heat and in the cold when you're in riverport and green hill, instead of suffering and death when you're in Longhill.

Spoilery commentary 

Spoiler

I'm surprised that we actually saw the end(?? or close to it) of the thread of kithamar at the end of Blade of Dream, I thought that would be where we wrap book 3. I guess that leaves book 3 open to see and learn more about different gods, with hopefully potential to see more of the aftermath of a Kithamar without, well, Kithamar. Is it brighter? Darker? Just different? Who - or what - rises to prominence? 

My guess is book 3's theme is Faith, and the primary POVs are Halev Karsen and Byrn a Sal, with candidates as secondary POVs being Micah Ell, the caravan master, Kint, and a temple priest. I fully believe Byrn a Sal is alive and is holding the red bead outside the city, because Elaine would have been much more grief stricken at the end of this book had he truly died. 

Questions I want answered: 

-Who/What is Halev Karsen?

-Who is the second avatar of Shau? Sammish is one, as confirmed by Lord Kauth when Elaine was eavesdropping, but who is the second? Alys? Halev? Someone we haven't met?

-why did Karsen and Alys seem to recognize each other during Byrn's coronation procession? 

-what is the Kahon? Andomaka kept dreaming of it which at first made me think it was some aspect of god!Kithamar's power - either it's source or a powerful aspect of it - but it seems that god!Kithamar wanted it weakened via the canals etc, so it is a separate entity even though it is "hungry"

-similar to the above, why does longhill build around the wind (with curves etc), but the hansch side and god!Kithamar's structures (temple, palace) want to cut and block the wind

-what does the rest of the world look like? How do gods and magics exist outside of Kithamar?

Overall greatly enjoying this series, hoping the next book comes out in a year so it's not too long of a wait! 

Maybe it's time for a long price quartet reread, too...

[Werthead]

I believe the plan is to still tell the story of the same time period from three different POVs, so unless DA has said differently, Book 3 will rewind a week or so with a new set of characters.

[Underfoot]

40 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I believe the plan is to still tell the story of the same time period from three different POVs, so unless DA has said differently, Book 3 will rewind a week or so with a new set of characters.

Yes, but I hope we get some sense of the aftermath. Either way, book 3 hopefully covers more about the other gods and how they fit into things. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

23 minutes ago, Underfoot said:

Yes, but I hope we get some sense of the aftermath. Either way, book 3 hopefully covers more about the other gods and how they fit into things. 

Agreed.  This world feels like it has fairly serious depth.  I’d love another series set here with a more traditional ploting?  

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Agreed.  This world feels like it has fairly serious depth.  I’d love another series set here with a more traditional ploting?  

Isn't this world

Spoiler

The same as Dagger and the Coin, beyond the ocean? I've seen a few people note some references.

 

[Underfoot]

29 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Isn't this world

  Hide contents

The same as Dagger and the Coin, beyond the ocean? I've seen a few people note some references.

 

I think that's still speculation.

Spoiler

I had my eyes peeled for references or similarities in at least the small magics and any lore or mentions of remnants of the constructs of the dragons. Aside from the reference to an actor with a spider tattoo at one point and the Hansch/Inlisc races being distinct in some (not well described) way, I'm not sure it's confirmed. Would be kinda cool, but I don't see it personally. 

I can't remember, was there religion or gods in tDatC, in the time between dragons ruling and the time period of the series? 

If anything, the way it's described in the Kithamar series of how gods come to be, seems closer in concept and construction to the andat.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Underfoot
Spoiler tagging

[Jaxom 1974]

Is there a comprehensive breakdown of the stories recapped anywhere? I mean, I enjoy the hell out of these stories, but I missed almost everything you all bring up...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Isn't this world

  Hide contents

The same as Dagger and the Coin, beyond the ocean? I've seen a few people note some references.

 

Spoiler

I’m not sure.  I’d think the references to Dragons would be more… overt.  I’d be surprised if technologically advanced beings that can fly, like the Dragons in D & C, wouldn’t attempt to take this whole world…

 

[dog-days]

Finished Blade of Dream on the train back from a family visit. 

It felt like a more enjoyable read than Age of Ash, and also like a more conventional fantasy story. In Age of Ash we were mostly following low-life. Winter seemed to swallow up the whole book, and although our middle and upper class Blade of Dream characters go through the same season, they have warm baths and fires tended by servants to keep the cold at bay. Alys and Sammish don't get any of that. Our BoD characters came across as rather nicer, softer people, having not spent large parts of their childhoods struggling on the edge of existence. 

Spoiler

While Age of Ash is plotted around Alys's grief over her dead brother, Blade of Dream turns on the romance between Garreth and Elaine a Sal, and basically sees an evil tyrant being defeated and the rightful(-ish, not looking too hard at the genetics) heir regaining the throne. But though it is like a more conventional fantasy story, Abraham writes with an intelligence and sensitivity that refuses easy answers. I think we're meant to find Garreth a sympathetic character and I think his actions are broadly endorsed by the narrative; at the same time, other sympathetic characters of a less romantic disposition tear into him, and we're never told that they're wrong. 

Very curious to see where in Kithamar Abraham goes for his next PoVs. Given that Garreth still has a favour owed to Aunt Thorn, it could be to someone connected with her, so we see that play out, even if not from Garreth's perspective. Or there may just be a big event that we learn afterwards was initiated by an ex-guard doing something he shouldn't. Even if the next book starts in roughly the same place as the others, I expect it will finish later. 

I can't remember now if we found out much about Halev Karsen in AoA. He seemed like a loose end here, mentioned often but mostly absent. I also found it strange that in Elaine's final chapter we just learned that 'she wasn't ready to think about her father' and nothing about his death or the discovery of his corpse, which seems to be toying with us. In a lot of novels, that would be a sign of the dead-but-not-dead trope. And okay, Prince Bryn a Sal's body was apparently displayed during the funeral procession "a little less than six feet of iron-stinking clay that had been a man" which would seem to rule that plot twist out. However, Bryn's story – a detailed look at his actions from the death of Ausai onwards – could be where we go next.

Also, I wonder if the god-monster Kithamar managed to escape into Garreth's friend Maur. His final appearance in a mock wake could be a little ominous, plus his intelligence and lack of ability to feel love could make him an attractive host. I'm not sure how final Kithamar's end was meant to be. 

I enjoyed Theddan and Elaine's friendship. Even if it did come across to my jaded pov as being rather idealised, it was well-written and the way they bounced off each other was a delight. 

Just in case anyone Daniel-Abraham-shaped is listening, I can spot a comma splice at ten miles and have plenty of free time in my schedule that I could spend proofreading book 3. : )

ETA: From going back and reading the last page of this thread, I can see others have been picking up on Bryn a Sal and Halev Karsen. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by dog-days

[shortstark]

I can't do the spoiler tag thingy to save my life 

Can this thread be a spoiler thread..

I am sure Bryn A Sal is not dead and other wacky ideas ..

[polishgenius]

15 hours ago, shortstark said:

I can't do the spoiler tag thingy to save my life 

 

 

It's the eye button at the top of the comment box, next to emojis. 

[shortstark]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

It's the eye button at the top of the comment box, next to emojis. 

Bless you....

[shortstark]

Spoiler

So.. I think a switch was made between Halev Karsen and Bryn A Sal, that is it was Bryn in the body of Halev who was Struggling with possessed Andomaka, Halev who is the other aspect of Shau is the body that is dead.. That is why Elaine is so comfortable with him now as opposed to previous encounter although she muses that she cannot think of him as anything else but Halev, which I think means even though he is Bryn.. basically Halev as Shau aspect gave up his life so Bryn could live..

 

[Underfoot]

5 hours ago, shortstark said:

  Hide contents

So.. I think a switch was made between Halev Karsen and Bryn A Sal, that is it was Bryn in the body of Halev who was Struggling with possessed Andomaka, Halev who is the other aspect of Shau is the body that is dead.. That is why Elaine is so comfortable with him now as opposed to previous encounter although she muses that she cannot think of him as anything else but Halev, which I think means even though he is Bryn.. basically Halev as Shau aspect gave up his life so Bryn could live..

 

I'm not sure -- 

Spoiler

Lady Er and Lord Kauth mentioned something about Karsen when Elaine was eavesdropping (or was it when we saw them talking near the beginning?), which would have been before Tregarro went off to be an assassin, and they mentioned Karsen as something akin to an "it," so Karsen was already off. That could mean he's an avatar of Shau still, or of one of the other gods mentioned ,but I don't think he holds Byrn a Sal's spirit. 

The prologue of both books mentions a bearded man holding a red bead outside the city during Byrn's funeral. Byrn has been described as bearded, and the red bead must either have come from Karsen or Tregarro (my assumption is Karsen stole it not Tregarro), so my theory is Byrn is that man, and Karsen gave him that piece to represent Byrn being "taken off the board," no longer a piece that can be used in the game. 

 

[shortstark]

9 hours ago, Underfoot said:

I'm not sure -- 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lady Er and Lord Kauth mentioned something about Karsen when Elaine was eavesdropping (or was it when we saw them talking near the beginning?), which would have been before Tregarro went off to be an assassin, and they mentioned Karsen as something akin to an "it," so Karsen was already off. That could mean he's an avatar of Shau still, or of one of the other gods mentioned ,but I don't think he holds Byrn a Sal's spirit. 

The prologue of both books mentions a bearded man holding a red bead outside the city during Byrn's funeral. Byrn has been described as bearded, and the red bead must either have come from Karsen or Tregarro (my assumption is Karsen stole it not Tregarro), so my theory is Byrn is that man, and Karsen gave him that piece to represent Byrn being "taken off the board," no longer a piece that can be used in the game. 

 

Spoiler

Hmm

Always thought Kauth stole that red bead..  We have evidence of him moving around the palace and that he was the one holding it in the Silt..will go back and take a look..

 

[Underfoot]

4 hours ago, shortstark said:

  Hide contents

Hmm

Always thought Kauth stole that red bead..  We have evidence of him moving around the palace and that he was the one holding it in the Silt..will go back and take a look..

 

Spoiler

It was near the end of Age of Ash. Kithamar-as-Andomaka got a visit from Karsen in the daris brotherhood where she/it had the game set out. At some point later, she/it noted a red piece was missing.

I hadn't thought about Kauth at all though. My other wonder was if Tregarro would take it as one last bitter move against the entity that stole the woman he "loved" even though he worshipped that entity. 

 

[Rhom]

Finished yesterday.  Read over the comments here and I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed in myself that I just didnt' seem to enjoy it as much as everyone else here.  The characters were top notch as I expect from Abraham.  But I just struggled to get into it until the last third of the book or so.  I think the structure is what did me in.  Knowing the revelations from late in the first book, the beginning set up of this one just left me wanting to get to the part I wanted more answers from.

I think I also struggled because I didn't remember much of the first book.  I would have been well served by a re-read.  Seeing these comments talking about Kauth or Karsen being in the first book didn't ring a bell at all.  

So for me, I loved the characterization and the tone, but I think the anthology set up didn't work for me.

[hauberk]

Finished it over the weekend. I quite liked it, possibly more than the first given that it had some more sympathetic characters. Eager to see where things go in the final volume.