Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I have to make a distinction between my initial reaction, seeing it in a theater, and rewatches.

Without getting into details, December 2016 was bad for me. I was feeling pretty low. I decided to get out and see a movie. I think this was about a week after Fisher's death. Leonard Cohen had also just died and the horror of the Trump presidency was about to dawn.  

You know how some idiots will say, "this is the movie we all need right now"?* Well that was the movie I needed at that moment. That ending, and then seeing the young Princess Leia utter the word, "Hope". I was destroyed. Just scrape me off the theater floor and pour me into my car so I can drive home. I felt much better having seen it.

Oh, I understand that. I still didn't change my signature concerning the death of Carrie Fisher...

That said - on first glance the movie wasn't that bad. But narratively it is just a silly McGuffin chase, and one that actually makes little sense. I mean, in what reality would digital data only be stored at one place and this place then being some poorly protected backwater world rather than, you know, the Emperor's personal archive in the depths of Coruscant?

Then there are the lousy characterizations - the droid is the deepest character in the movie -, the generic fake tension plot of the good guys not having the stones for the mission and the lead character who is recruited against her will (despite the fact that the backstory they gave her made her the IDEALLY SUITED REBEL OPERATIVE) must take charge and push through a seemingly mad plan. That turned the Rebel Alliance into a laughingstock ... and that essentially five minutes before ANH. I'm not saying there couldn't have been opposition to the plan - but Bail Organa and Mon Mothma should have been the people behind that plan.

Also, I must say, the movie lacks diversity. We know that in the OT most rebels seem to be human. But guess what - they didn't have to do that for this movie. There could have been Bothans and Mon Cals and Twi'leks and others and new species among ragtag gang. Instead, they are just dude bros whose names I've completely forgotten.

Then there is the villain - I must say that the whole 'one guy tries to chase down the good guys' doesn't make sense in this context. The Empire is vast and a gigantic and presumably does have more than one henchman. And if that henchman actually talks to Darth Vader then, well, the Empire should use more resources than just one ship. The OT definitely created the feeling the Empire was everywhere and nearly all-powerful (I think that's best done in TESB when they destroy the probe droid and General Rieekan's immediate reaction is to start the evacuation). But in that movie they just look silly.

Also, I really don't like the weird state-friendly take on things by making the Rebels more like terrorists and the inventor(s) of the Death Star some conflicted guy(s) with a complex motivation. Those are areas were I actually do like a more traditional black-and-white approach.

Minor tidbits are Tarkin not actually believing in the Death Star project, Vader living on a weirdo lava planet in the middle of nowhere rather than, you know, on Coruscant as one of the rulers of the Empire.

After saying all that - I do like the basic premise of the whole thing being a suicide mission, etc.

11 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

It's established that Grievous was trained by Duku. And he's a 4 armed military cyborg murder machine who isn't above fighting dirty. That probably helps.

In context it isn't properly established why the Jedi do not just grab the droid monster with the Force and crush or immobilize him and then cut him to pieces. Yes, machine reflexes can make him a powerful sword fighter ... but Jedi are more than powerful sword fighters, right?

Lucas really dropped the ball there explaining how exactly Grievous can outmaneuver or hold his own against powerful Jedi.

11 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 Yeah, there were problems. The lightsaber "chose her" or "called out to her" (I can't remember) and it was never really hinted at as to why. I'm sure they planned to...

Yes, that's one of the problems with her character. If she had been given a good enough backstory her powerful talent could have had more sense ... I mean, we kind of accept Ani because he was a miracle-child conceived by the Force itself. If Rey had been that kind of person many of her talents could have made sense, too.

The lightsaber thing definitely indicated a connection to the Skywalker-Solo clan ... but that led nowhere, so bad writing. Her not knowing about her parents/past could have included her receiving basic Jedi training as a young child (possibly even with Luke's old lightsaber) which she forgot or was made to forget, and which then kicked in later when she was in danger. That way things could have worked or at least made more sense. But not the way as they were presented.

In general: The kind of weird criticism from some fans about new innovations in the Force department not being properly established earlier ... that was also not the case in the OT. Telekinesis is suddenly a thing in TESB that was completely absent from ANH, and the Emperor's Force lightning comes completely out of the left field.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

But  then there's the conspiracy people who decide "Gosh, people are questioning this character or this storyline... must be because of cryptoracists/cryptomisogynists!" And so the fact that people had issues with Finn's story in The Last Jedi was read as racism and/or misogyny rto poor Kelly Marie Tran... when John Boyega has made it clear he was pretty unhappy with The Last Jedi, and with his place in Star Wars in general because he felt sidelined after the initial excitement that there was more to his presence in the films and then just being a sidekick repeatedly foisted off to side adventures with newly-introduced characters. (In fact, when I stumble across discussions of the new films these days, most people (on that hive of scum and villainy, Star Wars Reddit) agree that Lucasfilm/Disney screwed Boyega over and that they wanted more substance to Finn's role in the series.)

I think that is spot-on on that issue. Finn is arguably the character who was treated most poorly by the writers of the movies. Folks seemed to have conflicted ideas about what Rey was supposed to be about ... but at least they had ideas for her (cryptic Skywalker association in TFA, nobody of importance in TLJ, Palpatine's granddaughter in TROS). From TLJ onwards Finn is literally just there.

You do have differentiate between representation and diversity in movies and whether the movies in question are actually good. There being more representation in the ST didn't turn them magically into good movies, and it is certainly not 'cryptoracist' to point that out.

7 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Unfortunately those racist and sexist fans seem to be a lot more prevalent in star wars. I agree that not all star wars fans are racist or sexist, but boy does the experience suck for a whole lot of the people involved if they're a woman or minority. 

This ain't nearly the case for, say, Marvel movies by comparison.

I think the perception there might be somewhat warped. Star Wars is a very successful global phenomenon whereas the Marvel stuff are just movies for most of the people on this planet. Very few people outside the Anglo-American sphere actually do read or care about Marvel comics.

7 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

And yes, if you question Rey and aren't questioning anakin or Luke you're being sexist.

It depends on how you do it and what your issues are.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Luke in ANH is not an issue, since he basically can fly well and he can learn to use the Force but basically does nothing with it until under direct guidance he makes a lucky shot. He's not some ace gunfighter, but sure, out on the frontier we see him carry around a blaster rifle and presumably knows how to use it. (That he and everyone else can hit the broad side of a barn while Stormtroopers cannot has rendered the Stormtroopers into a joke.) He can tinker a bit mechanically, but no one ever turns to him to solve some impossible mechanical problem.

ANH Luke isn't that much of a problem, but his training with Yoda is not indicated as taking a lot of time, nor is there any training with Yoda between TESB and ROTJ, so one certainly can question why he can hold his own against Vader in TESB and actually defeat him in ROTJ.

I mean, whatever Yoda taught him, it clearly didn't include lightsaber lessons.

Rey being a great mechanic is fine, her being an intuitive pilot as well ... since Ani established that this is a thing. And, strictly speaking, if Luke can hold his own against Vader presumably just because he can use the Force and has foreknowledge about where the blade will go, etc. ... then Rey also can be an intuitive sword fighter. It is not *that big* of a stretch.

The arguments about Star Wars tech being poorly presented in the ST are more compelling. The Holdo maneuver is weird, weirdo micro light jumps as well, going to hyperspace in the atmosphere of a planet, too. And that's mostly because it undermines how things were presented in the other movies.

[Darryk]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Luke in ANH is not an issue, since he basically can fly well and he can learn to use the Force but basically does nothing with it until under direct guidance he makes a lucky shot. He's not some ace gunfighter, but sure, out on the frontier we see him carry around a blaster rifle and presumably knows how to use it. (That he and everyone else can hit the broad side of a barn while Stormtroopers cannot has rendered the Stormtroopers into a joke.) He can tinker a bit mechanically, but no one ever turns to him to solve some impossible mechanical problem.

Anakin in TPM absolutely is a problem. He is very badly presented and written. His genius-level mechanical skill + droid building + ace piloting while all of 10 years old makes no sense. It's crappy Gary Stu-level stuff. Real shame. 

 

 

I think Anakin being OP in TPM is balanced out by the fact that he turns to the dark side, loses everyone he loves and has to live in a robot suit the rest of his life. In other words he's more Lucifer than Mary Sue.

And even with how overpowered he is in the prequel trilogy, he still at least occasionally gets his ass handed to him by more experienced Jedi, which we never see with Rey.

Luke goes through so much growth and development in the OT and has to learn so many lessons; no comparison with Rey whatsoever IMO.

The worst part about Rey is no reason is ever given for her to be so powerful. With Anakin he's the chosen one, conceived by the Force, so it makes sense. Sure they introduced some half-arsed thing about Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter but it was weak.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I think Anakin being OP in TPM is balanced out by the fact that he turns to the dark side, loses everyone he loves and has to live in a robot suit the rest of his life. In other words he's more Lucifer than Mary Sue.

And even with how overpowered he is in the prequel trilogy, he still at least occasionally gets his ass handed to him by more experienced Jedi, which we never see with Rey.

Luke goes through so much growth and development in the OT and has to learn so many lessons; no comparison with Rey whatsoever IMO.

The worst part about Rey is no reason is ever given for her to be so powerful. With Anakin he's the chosen one, conceived by the Force, so it makes sense. Sure they introduced some half-arsed thing about Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter but it was weak.

I think, strictly speaking, you do buy Luke's and Anakin's story more easily because the writing/story in better in their cases. It is not so glaringly obvious that they are overpowered.

But if you cut down to the substance of things and pretend that 'being a good lightsaber fighter means years of training' (like, you know, Anakin got from the Jedi between TPM and AOTC) then there is almost no difference between Rey and Luke.

I mean, yes, we can imagine that Luke continued training with remotes, etc. between ANH and TESB ... but we don't know that for a fact.

Lucas didn't decide 10 years passed between TPM and AOTC so that Anakin could be a competent lightsaber duelist ... but because Anakin had to grow up for the romance plot.

And as I did say earlier ... Rey being a match for Fetish Guy isn't so much a problem with her character, I think, but rather with Fetish Guy's. He is a bad villain/antagonist because he is as weak and insecure as he is presented.

I mean, if we imagine for a moment that Luke's climax in ANH wasn't holding his own against Vader in the pilot seat and destroying the Death Star but rather a Force-supported lightsaber duel where he got away or beat back Vader because he trusted the Force like he did with the torpedo ... then the movie wouldn't be worse for it. It would be the same kind of miracle ending.

And if we are honest then the destruction of the Death Star is a much greater miracle than defeating or beating back Darth Vader would be.

But, of course, Lucas' writing makes us accept how things go for Luke much easier because the journey is presented better, there are crucial scenes preparing us for the finale, etc.

TFA doesn't do that for Rey in the same way. Although one must say that the 'magical lightsaber moment' certainly can be seen or interpreted as a scene foreshadowing or laying the ground for a scene where she will display magical swordfighting skills. In a sense that's almost an Arthurian scene, a 'the sword is pulled from the stone' moment.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

I think Anakin being OP in TPM is balanced out by the fact that he turns to the dark side, loses everyone he loves and has to live in a robot suit the rest of his life. In other words he's more Lucifer than Mary Sue.

Well, he's the chosen one, but I frankly think the only reason to make him a mechanical genius was to justify his being the person who put C3PO together or whatever.  But the decision to make him 10 years old was dumb as hell. Lucas had nobody but yes men around him at the time and no one was willing to push back. He was looking at kids and the dollars that come from merchandising to them, and seriously compromised the integrity of The Phantom Menace. (Well, that was one of several decisions). 

Now, Anakin after TPM is absolutely fine. Again, he's the Chosen One. And he's had 10 or whatever years of training as a Jedi. Cool. No problem. 

 

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

 

Luke goes through so much growth and development in the OT and has to learn so many lessons; no comparison with Rey whatsoever IMO.

Yes. As I've pointed out before, TESB opens 3 years after ANH. Of course he's tried to develop his abilities with the Force and with the lightsaber since then, trying to live up to what he thought Jedi were.  As far as I can tell from Googling, there's basically no substantial time jump between TFA and TLJ, though -- they take place in the same year in official sources, and apparently internal references that suggest it's days or weeks, not months, between them. (OTOH, TLJ does handle Rey better by pushing into background some of her non-Force-related super-competency -- no more mechanical wizardry, no piloting marvels)

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

The worst part about Rey is no reason is ever given for her to be so powerful. With Anakin he's the chosen one, conceived by the Force, so it makes sense. Sure they introduced some half-arsed thing about Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter but it was weak.

The whole "dyad of the Force" thing introduced in the last film was sufficient to make me go, "Oh, okay, so she's basically destined and that's why she and Kylo are so strong."

[Darryk]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But if you cut down to the substance of things and pretend that 'being a good lightsaber fighter means years of training' (like, you know, Anakin got from the Jedi between TPM and AOTC) then there is almost no difference between Rey and Luke.

Well he got his ass handed to him by Vader. He wasn't a good lightsaber fighter, however much he may have practiced between ANH and ESB. So that's believable.

Blowing up the Death Star is at least believable because it's been established that he's been training as a pilot for most of his life. That plus it being established that he's the son of a powerful Jedi makes the ending of ANH miraculous yet believable and well set up.

[Darryk]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

The whole "dyad of the Force" thing introduced in the last film was sufficient to make me go, "Oh, okay, so she's basically destined and that's why she and Kylo are so strong."

I always thought they stole that from KOTOR but didn't do it as well.

Also Snoke is powerful enough to set up a "dyad of the Force" but then just gets cut in half by a cheap lightsaber trick.

[Jaxom 1974]

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

Yes. As I've pointed out before, TESB opens 3 years after ANH. Of course he's tried to develop his abilities with the Force and with the lightsaber since then, trying to live up to what he thought Jedi were.  As far as I can tell from Googling, there's basically no substantial time jump between TFA and TLJ, though -- they take place in the same year in official sources, and apparently internal references that suggest it's days or weeks, not months, between them.

 

Truly, that is the greatest sin of TLJ.  There is simply no time to breathe.  Maybe the New Trio (even though they should have actually killed Poe off as planned early on in the first film) might have been more likable had there been time for their characters to grow into knowing one another.  The time jump between ANH and TESB, it makes sense the bonds that Han and Luke and Leia have at that point...Hell, I don't think Rey and Poe are even on screen together before the final film and their supposed friendship makes little sense, especially once you factor in how they sideline Finn as they do in the final film.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Darryk said:

Well he got his ass handed to him by Vader. He wasn't a good lightsaber fighter, however much he may have practiced between ANH and ESB. So that's believable.

For somebody who never faced anyone in (training) combat before he was vastly overpowered in TESB. Vader should have had him on his knees in a matter of seconds.

That is - if we wrongly assume that the powerful Force-sensitives actually do need years of training to be good at lightsaber combat. Which I actually don't think is the case.

I mean, in the days of the Republic you probably needed lots and lots of training to hold your ground against somebody like Dooku who was an expert duelist. But for the kind of sword-fighting we get in the OT this wasn't necessary.

Just now, Darryk said:

Blowing up the Death Star is at least believable because it's been established that he's been training as a pilot for most of his life. That plus it being established that he's the son of a powerful Jedi makes the ending of ANH miraculous yet believable and well set up.

I didn't mean the piloting and stuff - that does all make sense. I meant him actually firing the torpedo and destroying the thing. That was almost impossible and is certainly a much bigger miracle than besting an evil cripple in a sword fight.

4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Truly, that is the greatest sin of TLJ.  There is simply no time to breathe.  Maybe the New Trio (even though they should have actually killed Poe off as planned early on in the first film) might have been more likable had there been time for their characters to grow into knowing one another.  The time jump between ANH and TESB, it makes sense the bonds that Han and Luke and Leia have at that point...Hell, I don't think Rey and Poe are even on screen together before the final film and their supposed friendship makes little sense, especially once you factor in how they sideline Finn as they do in the final film.

Yeah, the open end of TFA and there being no time passing between the two movies is a big problem. To make it believable that these people are friends they either would have spend time together or it should have been implied they did so between the movies. But that wasn't possible between TFA and TLJ.

Rey getting stronger between TLJ and TROS does make some sense since she trained with Leia. Although her sudden issues with anger and stuff comes completely out of the left field, too, part of the ridiculous Palpatine retcon.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that's one of the problems with her character. If she had been given a good enough backstory her powerful talent could have had more sense ... I mean, we kind of accept Ani because he was a miracle-child conceived by the Force itself. If Rey had been that kind of person many of her talents could have made sense, too.

The whole point is that the Force chooses! It isn't because of genetics or other things like that - which is established by Anakin himself - it's that anyone can be ridiculously powerful, regardless of background, history, genetics, etc. Rey doesn't need to be amazingly powerful because of her parents. 

Again, this is the sort of bullshit people appear to totally gloss over - that the actual context of the show is fine in one case and completely wrong in the others. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the perception there might be somewhat warped. Star Wars is a very successful global phenomenon whereas the Marvel stuff are just movies for most of the people on this planet. Very few people outside the Anglo-American sphere actually do read or care about Marvel comics.

Star Wars is not remotely as successful globally as Marvel is at this point. Perhaps Star Wars is more successful in European countries, but not remotely globally. This is immediately obvious by how poorly SW did in China compared to Marvel. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It depends on how you do it and what your issues are.

ANH Luke isn't that much of a problem, but his training with Yoda is not indicated as taking a lot of time, nor is there any training with Yoda between TESB and ROTJ, so one certainly can question why he can hold his own against Vader in TESB and actually defeat him in ROTJ.

ANH Luke shoots an unguided missile from a spaceship into a hole the size of a bicycle after previously having zero training with any weapons systems or military spaceships. Honestly, that is FAR more weird than the force being able to guide your instincts in doing things with your body. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, whatever Yoda taught him, it clearly didn't include lightsaber lessons.

Conversely: the Force knew that Luke shouldn't beat Vader then and guides him to lose. It was destined that Luke loses because Vader is the one destined to bring balance to the force and kill Palpatine...the first time. 

But again, ANH establishes that you can, if you're strong enough, block blaster shots without using your sight. Why is fencing somehow requiring crazy amounts of training but blocking blasters okay? 

 

[Kalbear]

And yes, the biggest problems with TLJ are directly caused by TFA being so completely stupid. Once you end on that cliffhanger - where Luke has been gone for 20 years and has done absolutely nothing to stop the First Order, where Luke and Rey are actually meeting, why Snoke and Kylo Ren are seeking Luke at all - it leaves you very little narrative ability to do anything other than start immediately where it ends, and have a major point being why Luke - someone who was shown to drop everything to save his friends at great personal cost - would not be running to save Han, to save Leia, to save the Republic. 

I guess they could have come up with Luke having to personally stop an even greater evil, but that goes against everything he did in TESB and RotJ. It goes against his pacifist leanings too. They could have made him actually evil, I suppose, would have been more Dark Empire but also probably shit on his character more. The narrative at that point is very much in a dead end, and I think TLJ was pretty clever in making Luke go the way of Yoda and choose isolation and failure, while being exceptionally mad at the very real problems that the Jedi order had. 

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

The whole point is that the Force chooses! It isn't because of genetics or other things like that - which is established by Anakin himself - it's that anyone can be ridiculously powerful, regardless of background, history, genetics, etc. Rey doesn't need to be amazingly powerful because of her parents.

Actually, no, Anakin proves that it matters very much who and what you are since Anakin is apparently a Force-conceived prophesied savior ... which is the antithesis of the average Joe.

And since Luke and Leia are Anakin's children they are super special now, too, there is no way around that.

I agree that Rey doesn't need to be the descendant of special people to be powerful, but I think it would have worked well or better if she had been Luke's or Leia's daughter. But she could just as well have been another Force-conceived 'Chosen One' like Anakin was.

26 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Again, this is the sort of bullshit people appear to totally gloss over - that the actual context of the show is fine in one case and completely wrong in the others. 

Just for the record - I actually like Rey and Ridley's performance. She and her powers aren't an the deciding factor why the ST sucks.

26 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Star Wars is not remotely as successful globally as Marvel is at this point. Perhaps Star Wars is more successful in European countries, but not remotely globally. This is immediately obvious by how poorly SW did in China compared to Marvel.

I meant that for most of the world the Marvel movies are just that - movies. Not adaptations or continuations of a very popular franchise. Lots of people think they know what a Star Wars movie should be like ... but very few people care about the correct adaptation of Thanos or how the hell Tony Stark should be played.

26 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

ANH Luke shoots an unguided missile from a spaceship into a hole the size of a bicycle after previously having zero training with any weapons systems or military spaceships. Honestly, that is FAR more weird than the force being able to guide your instincts in doing things with your body. 

See above. I made exactly the same point. I said that Rey holding her own in a fight (or Luke holding his ground against Vader) is less miraculous than the destruction of the first Death Star. And if that is possible then any of the lesser miracles shouldn't be that much of a problem, either.

Which means that, indeed, a criticism of Rey as 'overpowered' isn't all that valid. What is valid is that the writing of the ST is so bad that Rey appears to be more overpowered than the likes of Luke and Anakin.

26 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

But again, ANH establishes that you can, if you're strong enough, block blaster shots without using your sight. Why is fencing somehow requiring crazy amounts of training but blocking blasters okay?

That is a very valid point and basically how Jedi fighting seems to work. The Force guides your hand so that you can protect yourself or hit the enemy. Meaning basically the deciding factor in any lightsaber battle is not so much your physical skill but your strength in the Force ... or perhaps also who the Force wants to win, if you assume the Force has opinions on such things (which might be the case but we don't really know).

Arguably, the bigger problem in TFA is how Finn can wield a lightsaber than that Rey does it so well later.

21 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

And yes, the biggest problems with TLJ are directly caused by TFA being so completely stupid. Once you end on that cliffhanger - where Luke has been gone for 20 years and has done absolutely nothing to stop the First Order, where Luke and Rey are actually meeting, why Snoke and Kylo Ren are seeking Luke at all - it leaves you very little narrative ability to do anything other than start immediately where it ends, and have a major point being why Luke - someone who was shown to drop everything to save his friends at great personal cost - would not be running to save Han, to save Leia, to save the Republic.

They could have come up with some kind of, well, explanation for this other than the 'The Jedi must die' crap.

But I certainly agree that this was a stupid plot, just as 'the search for Luke Skywalker' was a stupid premise for the movie.

21 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

I guess they could have come up with Luke having to personally stop an even greater evil, but that goes against everything he did in TESB and RotJ. It goes against his pacifist leanings too. They could have made him actually evil, I suppose, would have been more Dark Empire but also probably shit on his character more. The narrative at that point is very much in a dead end, and I think TLJ was pretty clever in making Luke go the way of Yoda and choose isolation and failure, while being exceptionally mad at the very real problems that the Jedi order had. 

I think a way to salvage the Luke plot there could have been to have Luke go on a quest to find out the truth about the Snoke character and figure out what he is about and how he could corrupt Han's son. Evil Hologram Dude was one of the big mysteries in TFA and everybody expected that this guy had an interesting backstory and an important role to play.

They could also have used the meeting of Luke and Rey to explore their connection and what they were to each other so to faster reach a point where they would do something together.

I mean, if Rey had realized that Luke and her mother had left her on Jakku for some strange reason this could have provided an interesting story and potential for some conflict further down the road.

Turning Luke into a caricature of Yoda wasn't a great idea.

[Ran]

59 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

nce you end on that cliffhanger - where Luke has been gone for 20 years and has done absolutely nothing to stop the First Order

Mark Hamill pretty clearly felt it was Rian Johnson who made the decisions to make that not make sense, not J.J. It seems the basic idea of Luke being out of the picture for a long time at the opening of this new series was straight from Lucas, and apparently Hamill quite liked Lucas's explanation for it in the context of his understanding of Luke's character.

59 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

it leaves you very little narrative ability to do anything other than start immediately where it ends

TFA ends with her finding Luke. They could then jump months, a year, three years later, whatever.

Or, my own suggestion in the past was that what would have worked well was to jump the non-Achoo story months into the future and that's where TLJ opens, and then make it plain that when we go to her and Luke, it's (many) months in the past and then we get jumps in her story that brings her closer and closer to the other timeline -- probably the moment when Kylo reaches out to her being the point of intersection -- and proceed from there. It was Johnson's choice to keep the threads of the characters in the same chronological space, and also to not just jump forward from TFA's ending.

He screwed the pooch, is all I can say, despite on an individual scene-to-scene basis his obviously being an excellent director with a great visual style. He created something that did not fit well with what came before and then left it in a place where the people calling the shots didn't want it to be and so the third film was spent trying to correct for it.

[Myrddin]

I reckon you all want to see this:

ETA: I like that this looks broader than just "Andor" centric, even if he's the main character. I'm a huge fan of Luna, but the broader story is more interesting than his character (for now).

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, no, Anakin proves that it matters very much who and what you are since Anakin is apparently a Force-conceived prophesied savior ... which is the antithesis of the average Joe.

And there's nothing that says Rey can't be either. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I meant that for most of the world the Marvel movies are just that - movies. Not adaptations or continuations of a very popular franchise. Lots of people think they know what a Star Wars movie should be like ... but very few people care about the correct adaptation of Thanos or how the hell Tony Stark should be played. 

I think that's largely because they've basically got it very much right. You'd hear a lot more grousing about this if they messed it up. 

This point is more relevant for some of the successes they've had for minor/unknown character sets (like GotG or Ant-Man), but I don't think it holds across the board.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Which means that, indeed, a criticism of Rey as 'overpowered' isn't all that valid. What is valid is that the writing of the ST is so bad that Rey appears to be more overpowered than the likes of Luke and Anakin.

I guess I don't see that as an issue provided that you explain why Rey is so needed. But that's not a problem with Rey being powerful.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Arguably, the bigger problem in TFA is how Finn can wield a lightsaber than that Rey does it so well later.

One of the best things TFA did was make the fights actually reflect the story instead of just being cool choreography - something that people love about Rebels at times too (particularly the Obi-Wan/Maul final duel). Finn is completely outmatched. Kylo Ren is playing with him throughout the fight. It's very similar to how the duel looks in Rob Roy at the end too. Only when Kylo actually gets hurt does he finish things off and he stops fucking around. 

But at no point is Finn remotely going to win or even have a chance. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They could have come up with some kind of, well, explanation for this other than the 'The Jedi must die' crap. 

I kind of agree with it personally. I get why others don't, but recognizing that the Jedi were a very shitty organization who caused a whole lot of shit and were unable to stop the one thing that they were supposedly put together to do is not actually crap. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think a way to salvage the Luke plot there could have been to have Luke go on a quest to find out the truth about the Snoke character and figure out what he is about and how he could corrupt Han's son. Evil Hologram Dude was one of the big mysteries in TFA and everybody expected that this guy had an interesting backstory and an important role to play.

They could also have used the meeting of Luke and Rey to explore their connection and what they were to each other so to faster reach a point where they would do something together.

I mean, if Rey had realized that Luke and her mother had left her on Jakku for some strange reason this could have provided an interesting story and potential for some conflict further down the road.

Turning Luke into a caricature of Yoda wasn't a great idea.

But Luke couldn't be going on a quest; he had to be in one place. Because there's a map to him that's been around for years. He had to be there, be reliably there, and when TFA ends he is there, so he can't be 'going off on a quest'. He's at that spot. 

So the only question you can answer is - what is he doing there? 

Now, I think that they could have answered that in maybe a more satisfactory way - that Luke is there because this is the actual source of Snoke's power, that he is doing all he can to simply stop that power at all costs to him, that he cannot leave - but that also goes against everything we know about Luke's personality and passions to date. 

They can't just have Luke and Rey go off and have a connection together because it means that Luke is totally fine with the people he loves dying, but some random gal from Jakku coming along and he drops all that? Hoo boy, the fanboi howls on that would have been bad. 

And Luke leaving his daughter and his partner on a sand planet and not letting anyone know about it and just abandoning them? Is both an absolutely HORRIBLE character arc for Luke AND is a retread of TESB, something that was complained about again!

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Mark Hamill pretty clearly felt it was Rian Johnson who made the decisions to make that not make sense, not J.J. It seems the basic idea of Luke being out of the picture for a long time at the opening of this new series was straight from Lucas, and apparently Hamill quite liked Lucas's explanation for it in the context of his understanding of Luke's character. 

That's cool, but that's not what TFA did. 

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

TFA ends with her finding Luke. They could then jump months, a year, three years later, whatever.

Not really; at the very least you need exposition on that. You need exposition to understand why he's been hiding, what he's been doing, and what the point of it all is. You can just do that via actual talking or by flashbacks or something like that, but it's not a great narrative fit to just drop the cliffhanger the previous movie left on. 

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Or, my own suggestion in the past was that what would have worked well was to jump the non-Achoo story months into the future and that's where TLJ opens, and then make it plain that when we go to her and Luke, it's (many) months in the past and then we get jumps in her story that brings her closer and closer to the other timeline -- probably the moment when Kylo reaches out to her being the point of intersection -- and proceed from there. It was Johnson's choice to keep the threads of the characters in the same chronological space, and also to not just jump forward from TFA's ending.

I don't think that works well at all. Luke finds out that the entire galaxy is in danger and Rey is asking directly for his help (which was the whole TFA storyline - that only Luke can save them) and then...they fuck around for months? 

And the other folks like Finn are just totally fine with Rey completely disappearing from everything and they don't question it? 

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

He screwed the pooch, is all I can say, despite on an individual scene-to-scene basis his obviously being an excellent director with a great visual style. He created something that did not fit well with what came before and then left it in a place where the people calling the shots didn't want it to be and so the third film was spent trying to correct for it.

That's entirely a reasonable opinion, but I don't think it's remotely objective.

[Ran]

That is the first Star Wars TV project trailer that has left me really excited. And the scene at the 34 second mark gives such THX-1138 vibes.

Maybe it's just my appreciation for Rogue One speaking, but this seems to suggest that it's intending to be a genuinely serious, adult story in the Star Wars universe. 

[WarGalley]

Is Cassian Andor a part of any Star Wars material other than Rogue One? I'm curious why they made a show focused on his character in particular.

Also, I haven't see any of the SW TV series but is there any content or plans for content that take place after Rise of Skywalker? Everything seems to be a pre-quel to Return of the Jedi (except maybe Mandalorian or Book of Boba Fett).

[mormont]

I agree that it's always deeply problematic when a character is wildly gifted in the Force at a very young age. :p

[sifth]

Hey, at least Lucas had the common sense to have Anakin actually lose fights. Something you never see happen to Rey. Heck does she even get hurt in any of these films, the closest I can think of is Ben putting her to sleep and Snoke holding her in place with his mind. I guess she does die, from..............lets go with exhaustion in the final film.............for about 2 minutes. 

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I reckon you all want to see this:

ETA: I like that this looks broader than just "Andor" centric, even if he's the main character. I'm a huge fan of Luna, but the broader story is more interesting than his character (for now).

The music and atmosphere is kinda similar to the trailer for the Star Wars Eclipse video game. (which may never happen)

I agree that the wider story, especially the Mon Mothma stuff, will likely be the more compelling parts of the show.

6 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Is Cassian Andor a part of any Star Wars material other than Rogue One? I'm curious why they made a show focused on his character in particular.

Also, I haven't see any of the SW TV series but is there any content or plans for content that take place after Rise of Skywalker? Everything seems to be a pre-quel to Return of the Jedi (except maybe Mandalorian or Book of Boba Fett).

The delayed Patty Jenkins Rogue Squadron movie is supposed to be after the ST trilogy and possibly not connect to the Skywalker saga.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Is Cassian Andor a part of any Star Wars material other than Rogue One? I'm curious why they made a show focused on his character in particular.

Not really, no. I think the reason they picked him is because he immediately opens the door to a completely different point of view on the Rebellion, by showing someone's who essentially a secret agent who gets his hands dirty in the name of the cause. 

3 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Also, I haven't see any of the SW TV series but is there any content or plans for content that take place after Rise of Skywalker? Everything seems to be a pre-quel to Return of the Jedi (except maybe Mandalorian or Book of Boba Fett).

I believe Patty Jenkins' Rogue Squadron film, which IIRC is delayed, was supposed to go post-RoS. I guess Taikia Waititi's will be post-RoS, but no one really knows I think.